Do enduro frames suck?

flat tire · Sep 20, 2017

I was thinking about buying one of those EEB stealth frames for the easy battery space, but now I'm not so sure.

First reason is you lose some stealth. The thing doesn't look like a bicycle. This is kind of important because I don't want to get hassled while illegally riding the bike. For whatever reason, a typical bike frame with battery bag, wires, and controller doesn't scream "electric bike" to people--they are oblivious. But everyone I've shown the EEB frame to immediately goes "that looks like a motorcycle".

Second reason is the frame is kind of heavy and I'm not convinced that's because it's super strong, just because it uses cheap materials and unoptimized construction. The swingarm is also ridiculously ugly. I mean seriously, THAT was the best they could do? It is freaking horrible. The swingarm on my Orange 322 is really sexy, GIS a picture to see an example of a good swingarm.

That's all. I want feedback from people who have built a lot of ebikes and have lots of experience. If you just bought a EEB for your first or second build, and like it because it works, please don't bother posting. Of course the thing "works", that's not the question.

markz · Sep 20, 2017

Yeah them frames look too much like a dirt bike for my liking, but I hear your battery placement dilemma as well You will also get extra people asking you shit just on the frame, then they will see the ebike stuff and you will be there longer.

Maybe look into a decent custom sewed triangle bag to perfectly fit your bike. What I'd do is cut out a template, tape together a few pieces to get the shape you want and the look you want, then see if a granny from the fabric store could sew something up.

Also look into a 'VERY COMPACT' battery pack thats everything you want (Volts/Ah/Discharge) plus a touch extra for some wiggle room. Say if you want 18650 cans, then look at 3-3.5Ah cans. Samsung 35E, Sanyo GA, but they tend to be lower discharge #'s so if you want high discharge, then look at 26650 cans, say A123 or something.

flat tire · Sep 20, 2017

I don't really have a triangle on my bike. I am designing a mid-mount composite carrier to get rid of the bag on my bars. I think it will accommodate a decent amount of KWh but we'll have to see how it looks.

The batteries are already high density both for discharge and capacity. I exclusively use RC lipo, not cans.

markz · Sep 20, 2017

Yeah that was an idea I was going to mention on my last post, slicing up the frame to fabricate something to accomodate pack.

mid-mount composite carrier

You've seen the Strong GTS frame?
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88047#p1286363

flat tire · Sep 20, 2017

Now that is an interesting frame. Thanks for linking.

Sean9002 · Sep 20, 2017

This is why a few members (Sam, Andy etc...) are going the chop on downhill frames. The ebike specific frames (Enduro etc..) have great room for batteries, and may suffice for quite a lot of riders (heaps of people off road them). For very little money you can get a downhill bike (think 2010 onwards norco, giant, specialized, trek) with 8 inches of progressive travel, slack head angle and a moderate sized forward triangle and if you buy a complete bike; proper forks, brakes, cranks, bushings etc... By choping the downtube and fitting a 'box' you can maintain the exact geometery and still put a battery in the frame, then you just match your spring rates to the new weight. Have a flick through some of the posts on the ES Facebook group regarding it. Sam is up to frame chop 9(?)

Mock the design with carboard, cut it out of sheet, weld it up. If you aren't able to do those things, theres always someone who can =)

Im sick of backpacking my battery on my Giant Glory, so i'll be going the chop on that soon i hope!

flat tire · Sep 21, 2017

Yes, downhill bikes are the best but if you live in a flat area the market sucks! I paid way too much for mine.

markz · Sep 21, 2017

flat tire said:
Now that is an interesting frame. Thanks for linking.

Strong GTS were a department store brand ebike, I believe Canadian Tire sold them in the early 2000's. They were 3x12V lead acid with brushed 250W, I quite enjoy riding it with mxus 3kw just because of the battery arrangement, thats the whole reason I bought it. However one ES user had welds crack, mine havent yet but the suspension top mount collapsed, and broke off from 350+ lbs of body on it.

Another note on that bike is the rear dropout spacing is about 160-170mm wide, so plenty of room for huge motors like the mxus 5kw.

Its an all steel frame, and I havent used torque arms on the rear, but I ride casually and the axle flats have gouged out a little dropout metal I have custom made TA ready to go once I weld the shock.

The stance is a little upright, I am more used to a Townie feet forward design, so you may want to look into a layback seat post depending on your riding style.

The battery width between the two down bars you can do three 18650 side by side, with a 4th @ 45o all touching no holders no spaces.

Its my backup bike.

litespeed · Sep 21, 2017

I've had a few full suspension and down hill bikes.....I personally think the Vector frame bikes work well. I tried the back pack once, built a goofy wooden lipo battery holder, tried a custom battery frame bag and a rear rack both the solid type and the one that hangs off the seat post.....last was a custom mount with a Pelican case with 24s4p lipo on the front forks of my DH Team! Driving a Mack truck with out power steering comes to mind.

These frames are not for jumping big stuff and the suspension is not the latest tech or the last 10 years tech for that matter but they do work well for the intended purpose. That is to provide a large amount of space for batteries and wiring, have plenty of rear wheel travel (mine is around 9+ inches with a Swinger shock!) without being the heaviest thing you can get and lastly affordable. I pulled all the parts off a Giant DH Team which was a 5k plus bike in the mid 2000's. I changed the brakes to Hayes Stroker Comps which was one of the highest rated brakes for some time. 4 piston 203mm, front/rear lockable at any speed with 17/19 motorcycle tires.

It definitely is not stealthy but riding it like a bike for me gets minimal attention. The suspension is quite plush for street riding and on off road trails it does quite well.....again I don't recommend this bike as a jumping/downhill/huckable machine....kinda the equivalent of a stock pit bike with a grown man on it. Also since I have a 40 lb hub/motorcycle wheel/tire combo even the best linkage suspension is going to suffer dramatically in performance.

Best out there......maybe/maybe not of what's available for an electric bike frame....work well for intended purpose...absolutely! Could something be made better....no doubt but with added cost and most probably minimal improvements. As far as whacking up DH frames I think that's great but if your running a hub I feel the suspension quality will be splitting hairs at best hanging 40 lbs out there. I ran a hub on my DH Team and then went straight to the Vector....with 40 years off off road car and motorcycle experience it wasn't very different at all.

Good luck.

Tom

flat tire · Sep 21, 2017

Thanks for the feedback Tom. That's exactly one of the things I'm worried about, that these frames aren't strong enough to use like you'd use a DH bike.

Sean9002 · Sep 21, 2017

litespeed said:
I've had a few full suspension and down hill bikes.....I personally think the Vector frame bikes work well. I tried the back pack once, built a goofy wooden lipo battery holder, tried a custom battery frame bag and a rear rack both the solid type and the one that hangs off the seat post.....last was a custom mount with a Pelican case with 24s4p lipo on the front forks of my DH Team! Driving a Mack truck with out power steering comes to mind.

These frames are not for jumping big stuff and the suspension is not the latest tech or the last 10 years tech for that matter but they do work well for the intended purpose. That is to provide a large amount of space for batteries and wiring, have plenty of rear wheel travel (mine is around 9+ inches with a Swinger shock!) without being the heaviest thing you can get and lastly affordable. I pulled all the parts off a Giant DH Team which was a 5k plus bike in the mid 2000's. I changed the brakes to Hayes Stroker Comps which was one of the highest rated brakes for some time. 4 piston 203mm, front/rear lockable at any speed with 17/19 motorcycle tires.

It definitely is not stealthy but riding it like a bike for me gets minimal attention. The suspension is quite plush for street riding and on off road trails it does quite well.....again I don't recommend this bike as a jumping/downhill/huckable machine....kinda the equivalent of a stock pit bike with a grown man on it. Also since I have a 40 lb hub/motorcycle wheel/tire combo even the best linkage suspension is going to suffer dramatically in performance.

Best out there......maybe/maybe not of what's available for an electric bike frame....work well for intended purpose...absolutely! Could something be made better....no doubt but with added cost and most probably minimal improvements. As far as whacking up DH frames I think that's great but if your running a hub I feel the suspension quality will be splitting hairs at best hanging 40 lbs out there. I ran a hub on my DH Team and then went straight to the Vector....with 40 years off off road car and motorcycle experience it wasn't very different at all.

Good luck.

Tom

mmmmmm i remember trying those Hayes 203's....awesome for stoppies =) I love my Hope 4 pistons, but i reckon the design was 'borrowed' from the Hayes...

Have you tried your bike with the moto seat option? They all seem to be short stand over heights, have you found that? Im not tall (6ft) but i have been put off by the thought of it looking like im on a pit bike.

litespeed · Sep 21, 2017

I'm 6'4" tall and have 6" riser bars so I don't think a moto seat would be good for me.

Tom

Spell check sucks!

999zip999 · Sep 21, 2017

Yes help me with a prefect old bike for E donor. Plus I'm 6'3". Been banging my head around and looking on Craigslist for a long time. I have a turd buster maybe that route ? Must look like a bike.

Chalo · Sep 22, 2017

Another thing to be aware of with suitcase frames is that the chain elongation as the suspension works can be extreme, reducing the derailleur's effective wrap capacity to much less range than would otherwise be available.

Also, only the thinnest ones allow anything approaching normal pedaling, though pedaling such bikes seems to be a self-punishing activity.

999zip999 · Sep 22, 2017

What other used bikes like the strong gts that can be recycled ? Or a full suspension frame with big triangle. Something that looks like a bike. Plus a frame without a known weak point.

atarijedi · Sep 23, 2017

The EEB, Qulbix, Vector, and Nyx types of frames are designed for very high power ebike hub motors 5kW+, people run the QS273 in them, that's why they have such utilitarian looking swing arms. They are beefy and made to hold when put under a lot of force.

The EEB is the cheapest of them all because it does use cheaper materials, and it is more mass produced.

Get a Nyx if you want an inframe battery box, but also want a lightweight frame. It's carbon fiber and made in Canada.

Does the EEB frame suck? No it does not, you just don't have a need for that kind of frame. These frames, realistically, are to be used to make an electric dirt bike that is legal on paths and sidewalks because of the pedals. That's why their design mimics a dirt bike. If you don't want that, then don't get one. Doesn't mean they suck(or not).

Suckage would come from buying it, and it failing in some way, like welds cracking, screws unthreading, or not being as described.

Misuse doesn't lead to suckage. It not looking like a traditional bicycle doesn't lead to suckage either.

I am biased though, I have a Qulbix Raptor 140 frame and run upwards of 10kW through my motor at times when off road. I have built 6 similar ebikes using EEB and Qulbix frames for friends/family though.

PS while the EEB Swing arm isn't pretty, I don't think the Orange 332 is either, it also looks cheap, but in an over the top way. The Nyx has a sexy swing arm.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Chalo · Sep 23, 2017

atarijedi said:
These frames, realistically, are to be used to make an electric dirt bike that is legal on paths and sidewalks because of the pedals.

Except that they usually aren't.

MadRhino · Sep 23, 2017

You get what you pay for. In bike frames, you get more for less. More weight, I mean. Weight being one of the most important factor of performance and efficiency, heavy frames suck at both. For equal power and battery capacity, they will be left in the dust in acceleration, speed, and range, by a lighter build.

I will not get into design, geometry, stiffness, handling. Suffice to say that performance is the result of a combination of factors, and the weakness of any of them does affect the others exponentially.

atarijedi · Sep 24, 2017

Chalo said:
atarijedi said:

These frames, realistically, are to be used to make an electric dirt bike that is legal on paths and sidewalks because of the pedals.

Click to expand...

Except that they usually aren't.

Of course they are. Most people that buy these frames put motors in them that are capable of doing very high speeds, and creating high amounts of torque. They put high power controllers on them. They put large batteries in them. They are effectively an electric dirt bike, and the manufacturers know that people are doing this, which is why they made their components more robust. I mean, just look at the way the Qulbix frames are made, look at the Nyx swing arm. You can't tell me that these aren't designed for large amounts of power, much more than what most jurisdictions consider legal for an ebike.

markz · Sep 24, 2017

key word being legal on pathways and sidewalks, which they are not.
they are motorcycles! simple as that. they are not legal! simple as that.

I'd rather have my electric bicycle LOOK like a bicycle, and hence hide the fact I have a motor in the rear hub. This allows me to ride on pathways and sidewalks without anyone noticing or caring what I do. If I start pissing people off, and riding fast on sidewalks, and riding fast on pathways, then people will get pissed off and call it in. And I bet that the people who buy these enduro bicycles to make them into and enduro ebike, actually want it to look like a motorcycle rather then a bicycle with a motor in it. Then thats their business not mine.

MadRhino · Sep 25, 2017

Yep. In the city, or parks, looking like a bicycle does save a lot of troubles.

markz · Sep 25, 2017

MadRhino said:
Yep. In the city, or parks, looking like a bicycle does save a lot of troubles.

Yup even a bicycle with a mid drive unit is really noticable, I get more interactions with people with my mid drive cyclone then I ever did with my rear hub drive. I like to blend in and typically I will ebike ride right behind a real bicyclist with a good pace on the pathways. Yes I go significantly faster with open pathway, I even do some fake "ghost" pedaling. But I have also said out loud to other people on bicycles when I pass them, that I am fake pedaling. I do subtle things like that. The best yet is going up a hill on the busy pathway with both legs off the pedals and legs straight forward like at the front wheels axle point, with increasing speed up the hill, just a slow crawl up to regular pedal bike speed. I chuckle with subtle things I do like that, just to see heads turn.

Dumsterdave · Sep 26, 2017

atarijedi said:
while the EEB Swing arm isn't pretty, I don't think the Orange 332 is either, it also looks cheap, but in an over the top way.

I completely agree. The orange swingarm is ugly as hell

MadRhino · Sep 26, 2017

Dumsterdave said:
atarijedi said:

while the EEB Swing arm isn't pretty, I don't think the Orange 332 is either, it also looks cheap, but in an over the top way.

Click to expand...

I completely agree. The orange swingarm is ugly as hell

The Orange suspension design does ride much better though. :wink:
There is some kind of beauty in an ugly winner.

dirttorpedo · Sep 27, 2017

I picked up an EEB from EM3EV back in June (to replace my old GT frame) and I have to say it's pretty solid. I'm not sure if I would DH it but the thing is a blast for aggressive trail riding. The suspension is super plush, it'll take small drops and jumps as fast as I can hit them. After the first ride I was already thinking about battery, controller, motor upgrades.
I started riding dirtbikes when I was 8 and and mountain bikes throughout my 20s and 30s. I did a bit of DH, had a Demo 9 for a while, but it was never really my thing.

Do enduro frames suck?

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