Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

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gaber   10 W

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Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by gaber » Sep 22 2017 9:58am

I'm looking to put together a simple pedal assist build for my wife to help her commute to work and make it more enjoyable to get kids around in the Burley. Some info up front...

Her bike: https://www.rei.com/product/106309/co-o ... omens-bike
Image

Budget: Ideally < $1000
Desired max speed on level ground - 15 - 20 mph
Desired max range 20-40 miles
Rider weight - below 150 lbs, kids are combined ~40 - 50lbs?
Wheel size - 700c
Brake types - mechanical disc
Terrain - mostly flat, some 1-2 block residential hills
Usage: She's not looking for a throttle only experience, rather something to make pulling 2 little kids in a Burley a joy instead of a sweat inducing punishment. She'd also like to start communting ~3-4 miles on her bike, but isn't able to shower at work. My thought is a little electric assistance will help make this much more approachable and a part of everyday life.

My wife is not a speed demon or a techy (unlike myself on both regards :lol:) and the goal here is to build something that is as minimal (visually and power wise) as possible while still being effective. She does not love the cumbersome mess of cables, displays, etc that ebikes can turn into, and has been drawn towards all in one solutions (ala copenhagen wheel). I'm not willing to pay 2-3x more for something inferior to what I can build, thus the quest to come up with a super minimal and sleek diy solution.

My initial thoughts:
- Smart Pie v5 rear dd kit from Luna
- 48v 11.5ah or 13.5ah dolphin or carbon shark

My questions:
- Are there cheaper motors out there that would work just as well for the minimal boost I'm looking for? Or am I better off going with the SPv5 for it's simple all in one controller/motor solution?
- How stripped down can I make the wiring setup? IE - how few of things can I put on the bars? Can I go PAS only and forgo a throttle? (I know, she may end up wanting it. Just trying to figure out my options)
- Bonus: if it's possible for the setup to be removed without major surgery (battery cradle and wires could stay), she likes the idea of being able to convert back to non electric. This isn't a must though, as I think if this is done subtly enough, she'll forget it's there or fall in love with it and not want to go back.

Thanks for any help!
sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, well, he eats you.

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speedmd   100 MW

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by speedmd » Sep 22 2017 10:58am

Here is a quote from another thread by d8veh that is spot on for your build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=90412 Handle bar bag will also work for a smaller battery. Check out also keplers threads on the small hub motor.
d8veh wrote:The kit you want is the 201 rpm 36v Q128C motor that will take your existing cassette, so you keep the gearing the same, then you get the 48v 17A sinewave controller, LCD, throttle and PAS from PSWPower. You can then get a 48v battery from wherever you want, like Luna or Em3ev. To keep the weight down, you should get a 52 cell one, which would give 12Ah with 30Q cells. That should be enough for about 25 to 30 miles at 20 mph if you're pedalling on a light bike with 700C wheels.

That setup is light, smooth, powerful, silent, efficient and doesn't cost much. I've fitted loads of kits with motors of every size and shape. For the riding that you've described, nothing else came close.

You need the 36v 201 rpm motor and run it at 48v to get the speed you want. I'm pretty sure that it's identical in all respects, apart from the label, to the 48v 328 rpm one, but I haven't specifically tested that 328 rpm version.
Last edited by speedmd on Sep 22 2017 11:03am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by gaber » Sep 22 2017 11:03am

speedmd wrote:Here is a quote from another thread by d8veh that is spot on.
d8veh wrote:The kit you want is the 201 rpm 36v Q128C motor that will take your existing cassette, so you keep the gearing the same, then you get the 48v 17A sinewave controller, LCD, throttle and PAS from PSWPower. You can then get a 48v battery from wherever you want, like Luna or Em3ev. To keep the weight down, you should get a 52 cell one, which would give 12Ah with 30Q cells. That should be enough for about 25 to 30 miles at 20 mph if you're pedalling on a light bike with 700C wheels.

That setup is light, smooth, powerful, silent, efficient and doesn't cost much. I've fitted loads of kits with motors of every size and shape. For the riding that you've described, nothing else came close.

You need the 36v 201 rpm motor and run it at 48v to get the speed you want. I'm pretty sure that it's identical in all respects, apart from the label, to the 48v 328 rpm one, but I haven't specifically tested that 328 rpm version.
I'll look into that, thank you! Could you share the link to that thread? I've done some searching, but have struggled to find what I'm looking for.
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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by speedmd » Sep 22 2017 11:33am

I edited the previous post with the thread link. Here is one of Keplers' builds from a few years back. A good read! https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=47139
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=47139
Last edited by speedmd on Sep 22 2017 7:59pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by gaber » Sep 22 2017 2:17pm

Man did I just go down a rabbit hole...good thing it was a slow day at work. I came out the other side of reading all 11 pages of this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=49691, along with a handful of other related threads. This forum and all you contributors are an amazing resource. Based on that, and the quoted comment I'm starting to hone things in...

Battery - 48v 11.6ah: https://www.ebikeoutpost.com/products/s ... 1308795657

Controller - I get a little confused here. In the big Q100 thread, there is a lot of praise about torque simulation converters and lukewarm appeal to sine wave controllers. I've also read that they can be torque converters with sine wave controllers. When I go to PSWPower, they have sine wave and torque converters listed separately: http://www.pswpower.com/peng/pic.asp?Mo ... ID=S220056. Could someone help me cut through this confusion?

Motor - I believe I have it narrowed down to the proper motor. After all the reading, assuming measurements will allow, the cassette version is what I'll want. I'm a little confused about what looks like two identical options on the BMS Battery site.
- https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/618-q1 ... 13-rpm-201
- https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/651-q1 ... 13-rpm-201
The only difference I've been able to catch is one is listed for 32 spokes. Any ideas here?

Thanks!

PS speedmd, I noticed in a different thread you mentioned you were (or are) also a moto guy. What type? I've been riding dual sports and vintage mopeds for years, and am excited about adding some oomph into my pedal bike world.
sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, well, he eats you.

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speedmd   100 MW

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by speedmd » Sep 22 2017 7:56pm

I raced MX many years ago. Pedal for fitness now. Ebike mostly for fun and interest in the tech. Nothing quite like a light fast ebike.

For your build, a pas only setup may or may not be what she likes. If you go with a throttle and small (20 - 30 amp) simple controller you can do it for very little money and see how it goes. sunwin on ebay sells good cheap controllers in a bunch of sizes.

The hailong 3 battery boxes you pictured are very nice. I just got a few of them and am planning on building a 14s5p 18650 setup for my bbs02 build in the coming weeks. I have not yet been using a BMS but will on it just to mainly ease charging. Using only LIPO 6s bricks in 12s or 18s, 1 and 2p setups and balance charging the bricks individually from day one. Don't store them in the bikes either. Not taking any chances with them.

I am setting up my first higher power separate sine wave controller with FOC in the next few weeks. :D I have not planned to go with pas with it. Personally don't like pas even on the relatively low power bbs02 when on tight trails. The bbs sine wave does run quiet compared to the standard square wave controllers, but both are relatively quiet. Given the lack of tech savvy the operator has I would keep it simple.

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by Raged » Sep 23 2017 8:10am

Shark battery packs stand out and scream ebike fairly loudly. How much do you want the stealth look?
Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 91&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=70549

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 23 2017 11:21am

From all you describe on the First page of this thread, you are now on the right track,
a little motor like the Q100c cst, ( I have two , both 201 rpm version, running on 48 and 52 volts ( 13s pack and 14s pack ) )
one in a 27.5 rim and one in a 700c/29er rim.

You have to look for the 32 hole version, it is there, better yet e-mail BMS Battery and ask them which one is the 32 hole one,
and
When you put in your order , under notes, or instructions, state that you want the 32 spoke hole hub.
also
When buying from china, keep in mind that anytime you want something that you might have forgotten, or a throttle that went bad, etc, order a number of small items with your first order.
otherwise you will pay for example $ 5 for a throttle , but $ 60 or for shipping , making that small part/ or any other small part , expensive.

BTW you have picked out one of the few modern bikes that will take a hub motor,
Notice
That the Cyclocross bike you list above has a Through Axle hub/fork on the front, ... However it still has the old slotted drop out for the rear wheel and frame. ( Good Find )






quote="gaber"]Man did I just go down a rabbit hole...good thing it was a slow day at work. I came out the other side of reading all 11 pages of this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=49691, along with a handful of other related threads. This forum and all you contributors are an amazing resource. Based on that, and the quoted comment I'm starting to hone things in...

Battery - 48v 11.6ah: https://www.ebikeoutpost.com/products/s ... 1308795657

Controller - I get a little confused here. In the big Q100 thread, there is a lot of praise about torque simulation converters and lukewarm appeal to sine wave controllers. I've also read that they can be torque converters with sine wave controllers. When I go to PSWPower, they have sine wave and torque converters listed separately: http://www.pswpower.com/peng/pic.asp?Mo ... ID=S220056. Could someone help me cut through this confusion?

Motor - I believe I have it narrowed down to the proper motor. After all the reading, assuming measurements will allow, the cassette version is what I'll want. I'm a little confused about what looks like two identical options on the BMS Battery site.
- https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/618-q1 ... 13-rpm-201
- https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/651-q1 ... 13-rpm-201
The only difference I've been able to catch is one is listed for 32 spokes. Any ideas here?

Thanks!

PS speedmd, I noticed in a different thread you mentioned you were (or are) also a moto guy. What type? I've been riding dual sports and vintage mopeds for years, and am excited about adding some oomph into my pedal bike world.[/quote]
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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gaber   10 W

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by gaber » Sep 26 2017 9:26am

ScooterMan101 wrote:From all you describe on the First page of this thread, you are now on the right track,
a little motor like the Q100c cst, ( I have two , both 201 rpm version, running on 48 and 52 volts ( 13s pack and 14s pack ) )
one in a 27.5 rim and one in a 700c/29er rim.
Awesome! It's great to hear from people who have similar setups that enjoy them. What controller are you running with the 52v pack? I'd love to run the 52v Luna Mighty Mini Cube for stealth purposes and cost, and want to make sure I pick out the right controller that can handle it and has decent PAS.
ScooterMan101 wrote:You have to look for the 32 hole version, it is there, better yet e-mail BMS Battery and ask them which one is the 32 hole one,
and
When you put in your order , under notes, or instructions, state that you want the 32 spoke hole hub.
also
When buying from china, keep in mind that anytime you want something that you might have forgotten, or a throttle that went bad, etc, order a number of small items with your first order.
otherwise you will pay for example $ 5 for a throttle , but $ 60 or for shipping , making that small part/ or any other small part , expensive.
Good advice, thanks!
ScooterMan101 wrote:BTW you have picked out one of the few modern bikes that will take a hub motor,
Notice
That the Cyclocross bike you list above has a Through Axle hub/fork on the front, ... However it still has the old slotted drop out for the rear wheel and frame. ( Good Find )
That was definite a happy accident :D For my future knowledge, do horizantal dropouts not work for DD? Or is it that I need to have a through axle? Or both? This will be for the rear wheel...so I'm assuming it wouldn't matter what is on the front? So much to learn. Thanks for your help!
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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by d8veh » Sep 26 2017 10:03am

You're going way over the top for what you need. A simple 201 rpm Q100C, S06S controller and 36v Dolphin battery is all you need. You can get them all from BMSBattery. The S06S controller has a very good PAS system. You need the LCD to go with it. You don't need any more than 36v.

The key things you need are a cassette motor and a light-weight system.

If you don't need to go too far, you can hunt out a smaller/lighter battery like this one at 1.5kg:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/EU-US-N ... 36f74rcN6Z

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by gaber » Sep 26 2017 12:23pm

d8veh wrote:You're going way over the top for what you need. A simple 201 rpm Q100C, S06S controller and 36v Dolphin battery is all you need. You can get them all from BMSBattery. The S06S controller has a very good PAS system. You need the LCD to go with it. You don't need any more than 36v.

The key things you need are a cassette motor and a light-weight system.
d8veh! Thanks for the info, I found your posts on the q100 motor thread extremely helpful.

I'm assuming you mean this controller? https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/546-s0 ... e-kit.html (there was another S06S controller that is made to go in the top of the bottle battery case).
I'm I right in assuming that "torque simulation" on the controller means I won't need to install a PAS sensor on the bottom bracket?

Regarding batteries - I'm a little gun shy from ordering a battery from a chinese source that doesn't have verified panasonic, samsung, sony, etc, 18650 cells. I've read a handful of people who have had a bad battery experience from either aliexpress, bmsbattery or another chinese shop, hence leaning towards the $300 52v battery from lunacycle. I'm up for keeping an open mind though if people have had good experiences with bmsbattery batteries.
d8veh wrote:If you don't need to go too far, you can hunt out a smaller/lighter battery like this one at 1.5kg:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/EU-US-N ... 36f74rcN6Z
That battery looks awesome! If I'm not rolling the dice on quality it would be a good very option.
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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 27 2017 12:45am

Gaber,

Your wife's needs and mine are different

I live in a area where there are allot of very serious riders, I am talking 17 mph up to 28 mph on the back country roads. That is why I went with a 48 volt controller to use with the little Q100c CST motor. Most all 48 volt controllers will be able to use a 52 volt pack, by adding more voltage to a hub motor it will go faster , still not fast enough though so I am using the Mac motor when I need/want to go over 20-22 mph .
I did run into the problem that since the controller was different make and was not sold by the same company that sells the Q100c CST , I had to switch some wires around from the motor to the controller, and add to that the inline brake sensor also has different wiring and is not working.
Now you say your wife does not need to go fast and will be hauling kids around .
In that case you are better off using 36 volts, for her less volts and more amps is what is needed.

d8veh is right here , he has allot of experience with the Q100c and Q128 motors.

It is best , and easier to get all the parts from the same vendor, that way all the parts are Plug and Play, making your life much easier.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 27 2017 12:56am

Gaber,

For your future knowledge , Many people use a DD hub motor with horizontal dropouts ,
However
You do not want to put a Heavy DD motor on such a bike that you show.
I would ... Only put a Heavy DD motor on a frame that is made for E-Bikes like the Futr Alfa / Beta Frames,
the Vector E-Bike frame, or any other Stealth Clone/Copy type frame sold by others.
There is only one through axle DD hub motor that I know of , it is a front hub made by Grin Technologies.
I would only put that in a very strong through axle front fork. like the 34/35/36/40 mm tube Forks .
Example . Rock Shox Pike, Fox 34 / 36 / 40 , X-Fusion Sweep, etc.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by Chalo » Sep 27 2017 1:12am

I recently built my girlfriend a bike with a Q128 front hub and a 350W nominal controller, throttle only. She loves the bike despite not being a savvy cyclist. I appreciate that it is simple to operate, reasonably light, that it cruises at about 18mph, and it coasts just as quietly and freely as a pedal bike.

If I had it to do over, and I didn't already have most of the parts for the project, I'd have gotten her a TSDZ2 system. I think torque sensing PAS is really the only way to go for folks who want the thing to behave like a regular bike, and this is the first system that makes it both cheap and easy.

At the power level you describe, using a rear hub introduces more complications than benefits, in my opinion. Using a direct drive hub introduces more drawbacks than necessary.
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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by d8veh » Sep 27 2017 5:05am

The torque simulation controller does require a PAS to be fitted. Torque simulation means current control for the PAS. Other controllers use speed control. Real torque sensors are good for hardened cyclists, but the advantages become disadvantages for commuters and shopers, who normaly want power on demand.

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by gaber » Sep 27 2017 1:46pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:Gaber,

Your wife's needs and mine are different

I live in a area where there are allot of very serious riders, I am talking 17 mph up to 28 mph on the back country roads. That is why I went with a 48 volt controller to use with the little Q100c CST motor. Most all 48 volt controllers will be able to use a 52 volt pack, by adding more voltage to a hub motor it will go faster , still not fast enough though so I am using the Mac motor when I need/want to go over 20-22 mph .
I did run into the problem that since the controller was different make and was not sold by the same company that sells the Q100c CST , I had to switch some wires around from the motor to the controller, and add to that the inline brake sensor also has different wiring and is not working.
Now you say your wife does not need to go fast and will be hauling kids around .
In that case you are better off using 36 volts, for her less volts and more amps is what is needed.

d8veh is right here , he has allot of experience with the Q100c and Q128 motors.

It is best , and easier to get all the parts from the same vendor, that way all the parts are Plug and Play, making your life much easier.
Scooterman, agreed. I have moved away from a DD hub and am leaning heavily towards the Q100C (with mid-drive mentioned below being an interesting option). How bad was it to get your wheel dished properly for alignment? It's the biggest drawback I've read about with that particular motor. I'd like to keep the cassette, but if it's going to cause another whole set of alignment issues I'll consider going with the Q100H and sorting out a freewheel solution (not to mention the additional power it can handle). While I've ridden some pretty cobbled together mopeds/dirt bikes, I know I'll loose my wife once I start having to cobble things together. Clean is the goal.

Whatever I end up settling on I am planning on sourcing as much as possible from one vendor (appreciate the advice on this). I've settled in a bit on sourcing batteries from BMSBatteries after reading a few verrrry long threads that had a lot of people purchasing them and not seeing complaints. I'm assuming there will just be less life in non-name brand cells, as long as the ratings are accurate I'll be happy and understanding it'll just need to be replaced after fewer cycles than something more expensive.
Chalo wrote:I recently built my girlfriend a bike with a Q128 front hub and a 350W nominal controller, throttle only. She loves the bike despite not being a savvy cyclist. I appreciate that it is simple to operate, reasonably light, that it cruises at about 18mph, and it coasts just as quietly and freely as a pedal bike.

If I had it to do over, and I didn't already have most of the parts for the project, I'd have gotten her a TSDZ2 system. I think torque sensing PAS is really the only way to go for folks who want the thing to behave like a regular bike, and this is the first system that makes it both cheap and easy.

At the power level you describe, using a rear hub introduces more complications than benefits, in my opinion. Using a direct drive hub introduces more drawbacks than necessary.
That is a very interesting thought. I had not previously seen that torque sensing mid-drive for that great a price. I went down (yet another) rabbit hole in the monster 47 page thread about that motor. I'm a little wary of some of the noise issues people have had when just pedaling (seems to be a QC issue). That would be a deal breaker for my wife. I need to do some more thinking and reading before figuring out how I feel about it. Thanks for the heads up on it.
d8veh wrote:The torque simulation controller does require a PAS to be fitted. Torque simulation means current control for the PAS. Other controllers use speed control. Real torque sensors are good for hardened cyclists, but the advantages become disadvantages for commuters and shopers, who normaly want power on demand.
Thanks for clarifying Dave! Also a good point on the power on demand. Again, will need to do some more thinking on pros/cons of the mid-drive and Q100C/H setup as it pertains to what my wife is looking for. I have a little time before I'll have the funds set aside to build this, so plenty more time for (endless) endless sphere reading :lol:
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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 28 2017 9:41am

Gaber,

That nice Gravel/Road Bike you link to from REI, has only a 8 speed rear cassette, so in that case if I was you I would get the H model of the Q100 . There are good 8 speed freewheels available.

From what I have heard the H model also can handle a little more power, so a added bonus there as well.

In regards to dishing, hub motors need allot of dishing, at first I was concerned about the different spoke tension for each side, but each of my wheels have stayed true .

It is best to let your local bike shop , or better yet find out who is the Master Wheel Builder in your area to build up the wheel for you it pays off in the long run unless you can do it yourself and do a good job.

Where I live bike shops charge $ 65 in labor to build up the wheel, factor in the cost of spokes and rim to get total cost. An " expert " wheel builder in my area can charge up to $ 80-$90 just in labor cost to build it up.
For hub motors we build up our wheels with only one cross or two cross spoke patterns so if you can get good reviews about someone at your LBS regarding wheel building it should be good.

Now for more info overload , the New TSDZ2 mid - drive motor is getting allot of attention for good reason , and since you/your wife will be pulling kids in a trailer on paper/theoretically better. ( I would order the metal gear )
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Advice requested - Minimal DD Cylcocross Build

Post by gaber » Sep 28 2017 2:21pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:Gaber,

That nice Gravel/Road Bike you link to from REI, has only a 8 speed rear cassette, so in that case if I was you I would get the H model of the Q100 . There are good 8 speed freewheels available.

From what I have heard the H model also can handle a little more power, so a added bonus there as well.

In regards to dishing, hub motors need allot of dishing, at first I was concerned about the different spoke tension for each side, but each of my wheels have stayed true.
Good call on the 8 speed freewheel and H motor, and thanks for sharing your experience with dishing, it makes me feel more at ease about it. If I go this route, would definitely have a local expert handle the build.
ScooterMan101 wrote:Now for more info overload , the New TSDZ2 mid - drive motor is getting allot of attention for good reason , and since you/your wife will be pulling kids in a trailer on paper/theoretically better. ( I would order the metal gear )
Haha. This is my new train of thought. I previously was not aware there was a great torque sensor DIY option out there. I have a few questions about the TSDZ2, but will be sending those over to the monster TSDZ2 thread.
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