Idaho legislators eyeing 2018 ebike proposal

Not good - it mirrors California's restrictive 20 mph, 3-class assisted. +severe penalties for tampering. Woe is me.

Everytthing was peacchy until Pedego showed up. Then started whining about no regs to match their restrictive specs. Not to mention that the state rep behind the BS proposal is a 71 yo grandmother. Go figure

Papa said:

Not good - it mirrors California's restrictive 20 mph, 3-class assisted. +severe penalties for tampering. Woe is me.

Everytthing was peacchy until Pedego showed up. Then started whining about no regs to match their restrictive specs. Not to mention that the state rep behind the BS proposal is a 71 yo grandmother. Go figure

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Doesn't the California rules allow 28 mph? Isn't just about any rational legislation going to be restrictive to some degree? How about posting the actual proposal..

wturber said:

Doesn't the California rules allow 28 mph? Isn't just about any rational legislation going to be restrictive to some degree? How about posting the actual proposal..

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it's on a different 'puter so will post it tomorrow. 28mph "assisted" only. 20mph Throttles only. Problem is, they make no exceptions for custom builds.

Or no exceptions for people who cant pedal continuously for physical reasons. Discriminatory. I've posted that comment where Don should have seen it. They should not have a big hard on about PAS only for the speed pedelec.

On the bright side though, it DOES allow a 28 mph e bike. Many states do not.

IMO,, if you are going to take your speed pedelec out and trash lovingly maintained single track, or terrorize the ladies with baby strollers on the multi use trail, then your problem has nothing to do with whether you have a throttle or not. If you are a jackass, cops will notice, and you will get to pass the attitude test with them.

I can't picture most Idaho cops giving a damn if your e bike has a throttle or not. until you just flunked that attitude test.

First and foremost if you are sticking out like a sore thumb instead of being modest where modesty is needed you may get nabbed, then you might need to be more civil with the constabulary.

If you are modest where modesty counts and still get stopped then that is bs, no need to stop. They need to be able to catch you to enforce their bs "laws".

I wouldn't stop one way or the other.

The dangers of e bike is in the imagination of the beholder.

People are ok with me riding by at 25kph but if my legs are stationary while going the same speed somehow that's dangerous. Democracy is a dangerous tool in the hands of the average person.

Being a senior, I clearly understand the virtues of prudent and respectable riding. In almost 8 years on the same trike, on the same roads, I've never encountered a LEO, for ANY reason, or instigated negativity towards fellow road users. I also do NOT ride where it's forbidden (mups,ect). Lastly, riding 30mph allows me to safely meld with local traffic, instead of hugging the gutter - likely why I'm still alive today.

Good comment, I would bet Idaho cops would be the same. 30 mph in the street taking a lane, you are not a problem, nobody cares if your legs are flapping or not.

I do ride multi use paths all the time, right past the no motors signs all the time. Been doing it 9 years now, and no cop ever did more than grin out the window at me.

The bike can do 35 mph, but it does not go that fast on the path, unless I can see a half mile of nobody ahead of me. Mostly I ride 18mph street or path, so I can enjoy pedaling.

Passing people, particularly overtaking them, I do at 15 mph or less. For one guy, that has been hit by fast riders 3 times, I slow to 5 mph for him. Everybody else, he gets off the pavement, but he trusts me now. I got to know the folks I share the path with, and they don't mind me any now. Motors don't matter to them, jackasses do.

Saw this coming years ago. As ebikes become more popular and powerful , and the states need more revenue, more and more states will enact laws pertaining to ebikes. Its just a natural progression that has to happen. It sucks ass...so enjoy your ebike freedoms while you still can.,

These new laws will rally ramp up quicker, if and when there are several fatalities of ebike riders, in certain states.

What is not widely known is that the California PAS 28 MPH E-bikes are not allowed on wood and river bike paths. Like Dogman Dan I don't more than a glance by the police and enjoy the ride by keeping my speed to about 20 MPH. I've have more than a few of the road racing bikes zip right by me. As my speed is within reason other people give me nothing more than a glance if at all.

Quoting from the initial 2018 proposal:

"Class 3 Electric assisted bicycles or Pedal-assisted electric bicycles shall mean a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedalling, and ceases when the rider stops pedalling, or when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour."

So enlighten guys....

Assuming for a moment that I had PAS (Which I do not), so how, pray-tell, can I possibily "assist" anything up to "28 mph" when I run out of pedal gearing somewhere approaching 17 mph? Seems to me, at 18 mph and up,... it's all UNASSISTED motor. So why the delusional 28 mph limit (on a 50 pound bike, no less) in the first place?

Oh wait!.... if i don't "stop pedalling" ... I'm still technically legal... Correct?

Papa said:

Assuming for a moment that I had PAS (Which I do not), so how, pray-tell, can I possibily "assist" anything up to "28 mph" when I run out of pedal gearing somewhere approaching 17 mph? Seems to me, at 18 mph and up,... it's all UNASSISTED motor. So why the delusional 28 mph limit (on a 50 pound bike, no less) in the first place?

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There are commercial ebikes like the Stromer that have no throttle and which have the gearing to do over 28 mph if the rider is strong enough. Probably a few home builts too, with/without throttle with same gearing,

These class definitions were in part pushed by the ebike industry.

Where I live, Chicago's forest preserve districts are even stricter, restricting ebikes to a capability of 16 mph max. I don't ride in them normally, but I did ride a canal path last summer that briefly crossed into their jurisdiction for a few miles. I' have read blogs who claim forest preserve cops will enforce and issue tickets on that section to regular bikers for speeding .

H.R. 727 (Federal)

The Consumer Product Safety Act (15 U.S.C. 2051 et seq.) is amended
by adding at the end the following:

``low-speed electric bicycles

``Sec. 38. <<NOTE: 15 USC 2085.>> (a) Notwithstanding any other
provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products
within the meaning of section 3(a)(1) and shall be subject to the
Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and part 1512
of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.

``(b) For the purpose of this section, the term `low-speed electric
bicycle' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable
pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose
maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a
motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20
mph.
``(c) To further protect the safety of consumers who ride low-speed
electric bicycles, the Commission may promulgate new or amended
requirements applicable to such vehicles as necessary and appropriate.
``(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with
respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law
or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements
referred to in subsection (a).''.

FWIW, the consumer law you just quoted pertains only to selling e bikes, not operation on the road.

re the 28 mph, true speed pedelecs, as they call it in Europe, do have gearing to pedal 28 mph. Often a mid drive, a 48-11 combo will do er.

Don's creation ( pedego), the California law mirrors the EU speed pedelc law, which though stupid, would at least get some degree of similarity between USA and EU ebike road use laws. It comes directly from those who hate motors, no fun without the pain of pedaling allowed. So the idea is only elite riders can pedal a cadence that gets you 28 mph.. Like I said, discrimination, I'd like to see that law go to the supreme court and get smacked.

I think a 28 mph e bike should be allowed on all trails, even the single track. My experience has been that there are hard man riders that can still out climb me, when I ride a 28mph, 1000w, motor bike on the local single track. So its not going to degrade the trails any more than a very fit rider.

My 2000w off road bike does make ruts, and throw rocks, like a motorcycle. It has no business on the single track, except for the illegal, trespassing, trail system I built my self near my house. I keep my e motorcycle with pedals off the trails that Obama made into National Monument property. But despite posted no motors there, no local rider has ever given a damn if I ride my 1000w e bike on the monument. Its just obvious that it does not damage the trails in any way, and like the MUP, I don't ride like an ass. Since I have motor, I yield the trail to those bombing down it. Pedalers hate doing that, coming to a stop on a hill. I don't care, I got motor. So far, no funding for national park chotas on patrol there, thank god. When it comes, it will be no having fun there, in any way.

What I don't get is the weird limit -- 28mph. Why not 30? What kind of sense does 28 make?

Where I live, the limit is 30. If you don't go much faster than that, I don't see any problems from law enforcement just because you _could_ go faster. Yes, it's possible in theory, but I doubt it would actually happen.

And if you're riding much over 30 on the roads, you probably should have to register the vehicle and pass safety inspections. Why should high speed electric vehicles not have to obey the same laws motorcycles do? Is there some reason an exception should be made?

Papa said:

Assuming for a moment that I had PAS (Which I do not), so how, pray-tell, can I possibily "assist" anything up to "28 mph" when I run out of pedal gearing somewhere approaching 17 mph? Seems to me, at 18 mph and up,... it's all UNASSISTED motor. So why the delusional 28 mph limit (on a 50 pound bike, no less) in the first place?

Oh wait!.... if i don't "stop pedalling" ... I'm still technically legal... Correct?

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I don't think I've ever had a bicycle that I couldn't pedal to over 25 mph - even my old Schwinn Typhoon single speed coaster brake bike.


I could even get my 16" wheeled Dahon folder up to 30 mph. It is uncomfortable to spin my e-bike past 25 mph right now. But that's why I'll be changing my freewheel to 12 or 11 teeth on the smallest cog. I want to give pedal assist at 28 mph.

That said, I think the pedal assist requirement is nonsensical. I'd like to read/hear what the justification is from those people who are advocating this requirement. This kind of nonsense appears to be heading our way in Arizona, and I'd like to see if we can head it off. The increased limit is good. The pedal assist requirement and the 750 watt motor limits that tend to come along with the 28 mph limit - are not.

tanstaafl said:

What I don't get is the weird limit -- 28mph. Why not 30? What kind of sense does 28 make?

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28mph = 45kph

Monkey see ... monkey do.

tanstaafl said:

And if you're riding much over 30 on the roads, you probably should have to register the vehicle and pass safety inspections. Why should high speed electric vehicles not have to obey the same laws motorcycles do? Is there some reason an exception should be made?

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I agree that past 30mph as a "regular" (flat ground) speed, you are effectively a regular motor vehicle or getting awfully close. So I'd be fine with a 25mph limit for an e-bike. Speed limts are seldom enforced to 1mph increments and I'd expect typical LEOs to give a 5mph grace range (for those few who would actually care) as they give cars 10mph of grace.

wturber said:

So I'd be fine with a 25mph limit for an e-bike. Speed limts are seldom enforced to 1mph increments and I'd expect typical LEOs to give a 5mph grace range (for those few who would actually care) as they give cars 10mph of grace.

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The problem wouldn't be the speed limit so much as once you acknowledge an e-bike is a motorcycle; then you start looking at homologation, mot/complience testing, road tax, insurance,

Buk___ said:

wturber said:

So I'd be fine with a 25mph limit for an e-bike. Speed limts are seldom enforced to 1mph increments and I'd expect typical LEOs to give a 5mph grace range (for those few who would actually care) as they give cars 10mph of grace.

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The problem wouldn't be the speed limit so much as once you acknowledge an e-bike is a motorcycle; then you start looking at homologation, mot/complience testing, road tax, insurance,

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You limit it to 25mph as a one of the criteria for distinguishing between an e-bike and a motorcycle. The ability to power the bike with pedals is an additional way to distinguish between the two. I could imagine adding weight factors as well - perhaps with different limits for bicycles and tricycles. And while you could limit motor power, I wouldn't want to place that limit below 3kw - especially for tricycles.

IMO, the legislative focus should be mostly on limiting behavior in situations, and not as much on limiting the hardware.

Motor vehicle laws already set that precedence with speed limits but not horsepower limits. You can legally drive a 200mph capable car on the highway. You just can't do so at 200mph. Likewise, a 45 mph capable ebike is fine. But you should be limited in your ability to legally operate it as a bicycle beyond 25 or 28mph. That is not only more practical for cyclists, but also simpler for LEOs.

legislators have nothing better to do than legislate. It's in the job title.

They know what's best for everyone and how everyone should behave.

We really shouldn't try to rationalize or argue their decisions. Politicians tend to make the most important decisions based on the worst/biased or least amount of information available. Issues like these really tend to chap my ass.

I ride my 6000W tangent on the single track and double track but with modesty when others are around. Single track will impose your speed limit, and honestly I'm not going any faster than a good rider on pedal power. Slower actually due to more weight if anything and due to caution so I don't stress bicycle rated components.... So I need less laws. Perhaps the pedal power guys need more laws since they can carry more speed everywhere....Playing devil's advocate here.

Single track imo is not eroded any more then regular cycling. There is no way in hell I can create a rut and rooster tail like a MX. Sure 6000W is a ton and there is a lot of torque on tap but spinning the wheel is asking for bicycle components to grenade! Ergo, no wheel spin, not trail destruction. If it's muddy and sloppy then anything will spin the wheels, but then I'm not likely riding anyways since clean up is a pain. IF we are really concerned about trail erosion then we would disallow winter riding where studded tires will wreak havoc on tree roots and erode the earth faster despite the freeze... Or we would disallow riding on wet or sloppy trails when all the ruts are actually created.


I have raced motorcycles at over 150mph and can tell you there is nothing scarry about it.

Riding my dual suspension bike with a stout frame and solid construction I dont feel comfortable going faster than 30mph on gravel. Does that mean a law needs to be set at 28 or 30mph? Not imo. I tend to be a libertarian when it comes to personal freedoms. The courts are present and capable of dealing with any and all situations as the needs arise without the need for more BS laws to limit freedom. Freedoms should be protected, but followed up with legal recourse if there is infringement on the welfare of others only on an as needed basis.


I'm pretty sure I have the most powerful ebike in a 1000mile radius. Nobody has batted an eye because I don't stick out and call for attention. I would hate to have my ability to have fun removed because someone has a different opinion on how I should have it. Based on zero evidence to back it despite my responsible and respectful use of the public space that I pay for.

Unfortunately humanity suffers from the never ending desire to impose one's world view on others, the vehicle for that is often democracy.

12-C said:

Riding my dual suspension bike with a stout frame and solid construction I dont feel comfortable going faster than 30mph on gravel. Does that mean a law needs to be set at 28 or 30mph? Not imo. I tend to be a libertarian when it comes to personal freedoms. The courts are present and capable of dealing with any and all situations as the needs arise without the need for more BS laws to limit freedom. Freedoms should be protected, but followed up with legal recourse if there is infringement on the welfare of others only on an as needed basis.
<snip>
Unfortunately humanity suffers from the never ending desire to impose one's world view on others, the vehicle for that is often democracy.

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Well, I think the main discussion is around e-bikes on paved roads that are shared with automobiles. At least, that's where the proposed 28mph speed limit is applied.

Courts are generally capable of dealing with situations only within the limits imposed by laws. So it makes sense to write good laws. Namely, laws that will maximize freedoms and protect rights to the greatest degree and in the simplest way that is practical. Easy to say. Tough to do though - even when people agree on objectives.

wturber said:

I don't think I've ever had a bicycle that I couldn't pedal to over 25 mph - even my old Schwinn Typhoon single speed coaster brake bike. .

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I no longer posses that ability - that is, until I built my first etrike back in 2010....

wturber said:

Well, I think the main discussion is around e-bikes on paved roads that are shared with automobiles. At least, that's where the proposed 28mph speed limit is applied.

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yes, at least for me it is. The closes mup is 8 miles from home, so is essentiallly useless. Besides, I don't build parade or novelty rides - my primarly focus is streetable utility (e-Gofers).

I thought that the pedal assist requirement was nonsensical too. Appears that the justification is a work-around, for new sales, that addresses the Consumer Product Regulation " less than 20mph " powered by motor only. Easier than revising an antiquated regulation? http://www.bicycleretailer.com/opinion-analysis/2013/07/29/legal-analysis-confusion-over-electric-bike-regulations . There is a wealth of information on the " Model Law " from the creators http://peopleforbikes.org/our-work/e-bikes/ and their advocates http://peopleforbikes.org/our-work/e-bikes/for-advocates/ .

docw009 said:

Papa said:

These class definitions were in part pushed by the ebike industry.

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They are entirely pushed by the bike industry, People For Bikes is behind all the Class 1-3 legislation. They took the European laws and combined them with the US federal laws to come up with it. Their goal is to get all 50 states under the same laws, one by one.

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/static.peopleforbikes.org/docs/Model%20eBike%20Legislation.pdf

http://peopleforbikes.org/our-work/e-bikes/