E-bike Average speed vs Bike vs Car

I cycle, but do not currently own an E-bike, but have been doing some research into this topic for quite a while now (gonna go rent an e-bike to try one out however in the near future). I am a tradesman for a school district up in Canada (we have an in house maintenance staff of various trades persons that do service work at the various schools & facilities in our district). I am developing a proposal to present for a pilot e-bike program where some of us would ride e-bikes towing smallish trailers (around 75-125 pounds including trailer weight) or cargo e-bikes (the former would probably end up being the preferred option due to versatility of what a trailer can carry, plus I think a 2 wheel trailer would end up being more stable at the end of the day). The purpose being to reduce transportation/logistics costs over our current model, and contribute to a reduction of our carbon foot print of our operations. We have everything going for us to make this work - a school district in a very cycling friendly city with a very complete (and constantly improving) cycling infrastructure, a relatively flat terrain (a few hills here and there but nothing major for the most part), relatively temperate climate, lots of bike shops, strong emerging bike culture, etc. we would also always have some cars/trucks for obvious reasons as not everyone would want to ride a bike, and we need cargo support for larger parts/pipe/lumber, etc. for any jobs that require that.

Since these would be employees riding bikes, there are various reasons why I am keen on e-bikes over conventional bikes in towing trailers, and why so far, in my limited discussions to date, I feel a mid drive bike would probably be preferable:
1) Take the strain off Tradesmens bodies day in/out cycling while towing a trailer between sites (as we put enough wear/tear on our bodies while on site, especially our knees)
2) Slightly Increase average effective speed over a conventional bike - effective smoothing out the landscape
3) Reduce the "body odour factor" when a trades person shows up to a site and has to work
4) The e-bike would "mitigate" for the weight/resistance of the trailer in your average speed

My limited research suggests that mid drive bikes would be the most preferable for our application as they are the most user friendly for a variety of reasons. I don't intend to turn this into a mid drive versus hub motor debate, however (just remember that I am looking for something that is user friendly, safe, and rides the most like a regular bike). What I am looking for is your input on how much of a "dent" the e-bike will make in your average effective speed?

I actually feel that the top speed of these bikes should be limited to some degree. We are currently governed to 20 MPH (32 km/h) by law and up to 500 watts without having to get insurance. I would think our top speed, because we are towing a trailer where things can go south fast in a hurry at higher speeds, should probably be lower, perhaps to the European standard (which is 15 MPH/25 km/h if I'm not mistaken), where the e-bike mitigates for the weight of the trailer and the land scape in maintaining a higher average speed to that of a conventional bike throughout the terrain (hills, etc.).

The digging that I have done to date suggests that top speeds conventional bike vs e-bike is a wash, but average speeds in most studies/reports shows the e-bikes generally have an advantage of around 2 km/h or more in average speed, but considering the variance in where these studies take place, there are so many variables to contend with that an effective comparison is probably impossible as you must also factor in the very demographics of the persons riding the bikes, not just the land scape, cycling infrastructure, etc. Just going between cities I'm sure has an impact, let alone the various differences in laws which limit speeds/wattages in some cases, etc. What I'd like to hear is for you personally, is any anecdotes you have on this topic, including perhaps personal case studies where you used to drive a car and now ride an e-bike, or used to ride a conventional bike and now ride an e-bike and what some of your differences in speed/times were? Also do you have any links to relevant studies that may help shed some light? All the studies I've found quoted in blogs online on this topic seem to end up in dead links.

Kokaneesilver said:

(we have an in house maintenance staff of various trades persons that do service work at the various schools & facilities in our district)

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If your goal is to do service work at the various schools & facilities. Cars and trucks might be the fastest way to transport people, tools and materials from one location to another. Same as you doing it now. If you or whoever is paying for this wants to spend more time with transportation and therefore get less service work done. Yea get some electric bikes. Beware that just because you want to ride a bike, other employees would probably prefer traveling in heated and cooled vehicles. Asking others to ride in bad weather would probably result in opposition.

If this is a place where the roads are a constant traffic jam? Electric bikes might make sense.

Sorry if I am negative.

The plan is not to have a fleet of electric bikes for every trades person, that is impossible for obvious reasons (not everyone will want to ride, some can't ride in all honesty, nor should we expect them to). The proposal I have is for a core fleet of electric cars supplemented by a fleet of e-bikes with our trucking department picking up the slack for larger parts, etc. when required. Our school district, which is in a very urban city (becoming one of the densest in Canada due to huge growth), has made a commitment to reduce our carbon foot print significantly in all aspects of our operations. Presently we rely on employee vehicles as our logistics solution which means employees must commute to work in their vehicles and then drive for their employer in their vehicle and get reimbursed. This practice, which began around 50 years ago in our district, is antiquated and obsolete from a sustainability point of view as it keeps cars on the road commuting from the suburbs unnecessarily instead of Employees getting to work using more sustainable means.

There is also the budget factor. As with all school districts in North America it seems, we have serious budget constraints to deal with and an e-bike program, if it is viable and done properly, can free up some cash for other things and/or the savings over the long haul can help pay for the charging infrastructure for the e-car fleet.

Did I miss it? I don't recall anything mentioned about typical distances. IMO, that's a HUGE consideration. The longer the distance, the more the speed penalty will factor in.

For instance, in my personal case, I commute 16 miles or about 25km. I average about 20mph and can do that trip quickly in 45 minutes, typically in 50 minutes, and about 55 minutes when chilling and taking in the sites. This is about a 25 minute trip by car.

To average 20mph, I must ride at over 25mph for moderately long stretches given stopping and slowing for intersections, school zones, idiot drivers (that was rude on my part) etc. If I were limited to a 20mph top speed and had a 75-100 lb trailer, I figure this commute would easily be an hour and 15 minutes or more - probably a full hour longer than using a regular automobile.

So, unless your typical distance to travel is much less than 16 miles and/or actual travel would be very occasional, this idea does not seem practical to me. It might become more practical if the typical distance to travel is perhaps 10km or less.

Also, I see that you concluded that a mid-drive motor is preferred because it is more like riding a regular bike. But given that you are talking about using cargo bikes and/or towing a 75-100 lb trailer, I don't see how relevant that would be. Given your relatively flat terrain, I'd be inclined toward a hub drive for long term reliability and simplicity of maintenance.

I'd say 50% of the trips would be 5 km or less, 40% 10 km or less, the remaining 10% being just over 10 km, perhaps 10-12 km.

I average 34mph in my car 20 in my ebike, and 16 when pedaling

When I ride like a teenaged idiot at speeds and power levels that would be illegal where you are, I can cross town faster on a bicycle than I can in a car. But when I actually obey traffic laws, It's slower by about half. Towing a trailer would be even slower.

At your legal limit, an ebike might not be faster than a fit rider, but it will be faster than an unfit rider.

Ebikes might be valuable additions to your E-fleet, but the roles you described sound like they could be better filled by an electric golf cart.

Kokaneesilver said:

I'd say 50% of the trips would be 5 km or less, 40% 10 km or less, the remaining 10% being just over 10 km, perhaps 10-12 km.

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Given your e-bike speed limits, an optimistic average trip speed would be 25 kph. Something a bit less (20+ kph) is probably more realistic. So your 5 km trips would probably take less than 15 minutes. There may be no practical time loss with these compared to using cars if the bikes can be parked closer to the final destination.

Between 5 km and 10 km is where the trip time might start to be a problem at between 15 and 30 minutes per trip while cars can probably get there in about half the time.

I don’t know. I don’t have any rearview mirror.

Traffic makes a huge difference. Ebiking to work for me is faster during traffic and slower when streets are empty when ebikes can use the bike lanes that are less crowded than the traffic lane.

Here the bike lanes are the most dangerous place to be, anytime. Even when I was on push bikes, I avoided bike lanes as much as I could. Now, when I am on the bike lane, it is to start ahead of trafic at the green light.

I would say the most sustainable thing one can do is reduce the number of new vehicles that will be added to a fleet. So relying on employees to use their own vehicles for "on the job tasks" is more sustainable and greener than asking those people to use a fleet of company vehicles. Doesn't matter how green the fleet is when the footprint that the purchasing and maintaining of said vehicles is huge in itself ( not the bikes specifically in this case, but I assume they will be siting in a storage locker dilapidated in short order).

It would be more green to solely rely on X vehicles owned by employees(incentivize economical use and ride share where possible etc) for their personal commuting AND job duties, than to have X +Y vehicles in existence to perform the exactly same task.

IMO people are so blinded by the "green" and "sustainable" buzz that they often forget that the greenest is to never "create" and simply to reuse and economize.

It is more green to keep a decent fuel efficient vehicle and maintain it well for as long as possible than to buy a new vehicle that is marginally more fuel efficient. IF you want a more fuel efficient vehicle then you are better off with a marginally more fuel efficient used vehicle than a comparable new one.

The good intentions of of bureaucrats are often not founded in science but rather emotion or "trend".

Lets not even get started with the waste of time that CO2 reduction is (with all the cap and trade/taxes and BS and economical burden) compared to the BIG GUNS that CH4 is causing but nobody even bats an eye at.....

I hope I am not coming across as talking down or offensive. I believe the merits of your idea are great but disagree with the means to the end.

I think you proposal has merit, some thoughts:
-I'm guessing you're talking about Surrey or somewhere else in the Lower Mainland of BC, whoch is good as the temperature doesn't get too cold. Batteries and humans hate sub-zero temperatures.
-I expect that one of the biggest benefits would be the ability to slip through traffic jams. With this in mind I would pay special attention to your trailer width as there is no point in being legally entitled to lane-split if your vehicle is too wide to do it.
Have you checked out Grin and ebikes.ca? they're in Vancouver and could probably answer a lot of questions for you.

I'm not sure how to relate this to the case of needing a trailer or cargo bike for tools/equipment, but I live in a very populous and congested area. We have some of the worst traffic in the USA. I travel just 4.8 miles between home and work (9.6 miles round trip). On average under decent conditions, it takes me 30-40 mins in my car to drive to work (25 mins on the best of days). On bad days it can easily take me 50-65 mins to travel one way.

On my ebike I've never had it take longer than 22 mins, and on average it takes just 17.5 mins. My best time, when I got all green lights and didn't have to wait anywhere was just 14 mins. I have bike lanes and bike paths along almost my entire commute.

I don't know how that would translate to a heavier cargo/trailer bike setup. I'd say, if you have bike lanes/paths that connect your schools and you can get out of traffic then it would be worth further consideration since you're in a populous urban area. The best bet is to rent an ebike that's comparable to what you'd be using and take a run to the various spots and see if it actually saves you time/effort.

Perhaps I need to explain myself further:

If you have 100 employees working on any one day, you have 100 employees forced to commute in a vehicle (Truck, SUV, Car, Minivan, etc.) to and from work every day for the transportation solution to be viable. Then when they get to work, because they are driving in their personal vehicles, you have 100 employees moving individually between sites, even though at least 50% of them work together in pairs or more and could team up and drive in a fleet vehicle between sites since they work together.

So consider the following - Using Employee vehicles:

- Your fleet is comprised of a variety of different vehicles of various sizes, shapes, ages, etc. that pollute varying amounts (Trucks, SUVs, mini-vans, cars, etc).
- You force your employees to commute to and from work which does not allow them to take more sustainable (cycling, transit, car pooling) forms of transportation to/from work
- You have guys driving individually between sites in their personal vehicles instead of teaming up in a fleet vehicle if they work together regularly

With a fleet of right size vehicles:
- Your employees can take cars off the road commuting to/from work using more sustainable and cost effective methods
- Employees that regularly work together can get grouped together in a fleet vehicle to move between sites when required
- As long as you right size the vehicle to each employee or pair/group of employees needs, your fleet only pollutes no more than necessary and less on average than most employee vehicles, per mile/kilometer

Right off the top we can cut at least 30%-40% of the kilometers presently driven for business purposes - from about 500,000 km per year right now, down to 350,000 km or less by going to a fleet. If we have supplemental e-bikes, we can take that number down even further.

As an extension of our operations, depending on how many employees decide to take alternatives to a single occupant car to work (transit, cycling, or car pooling) where they then hop in a fleet vehicle, I conservatively estimate at least another 400,000 km or more of vehicles driven can be taken off of the road from commuting. So perhaps 600,000 km or more worth of driving a varying type/age of employee vehicles can be taken off of the road, annually, and of the remaining kilometers driven (300-350,000 km) they are done using vehicles that are generally as fuel efficient or more than the majority of employee personal vehicles.

I know there is the cerebral big picture stuff that some would prefer I weight more, but over half a million kilometers taken off the road annually is worth something.

I'd say its a great idea, for those who want to participate, and don't need to carry heavy materials to the job. The tools for most trades can be carried, including 8 foot ladders. Mid drive cargo bike, and trailer. Or eventually, you might have your welder build cargo trikes.

Cost per mile might be a bit disappointing, since batteries will cost a lot, and there will be a need for constant regular maintenance. But it should be well under the buck a mile typical for a work truck loaded with tools. 30 cents a mile is very plausible. You'd think cost per mile would be 10 cents, and it can be, but over the long run I think you will find it adds up to more.

In terms of just miles per gallon equivalent, the savings will be spectacular. Any vehicle that much smaller will be, including small gas vehicles. big truck in the city, might be as low as 10 mpg, while the ebike, even the big loaded down one, will be getting more like 100 mpg equivalent. Expect about 60 watt hours per mile.

But as others pointed out, distances between jobs will matter, unless traffic makes distance vs time a joke. A large bike towing a large trailer may not make better time through gridlock, since it will be too wide to weave through a 24 inch opening between cars. But if the path is clear, a 15 mph average speed is likely what you will see. Bear in mind, 10 min longer travel time will not be entirely wasted. The e bike ride, if at least 15 min long, will actually invigorate the worker, and he will arrive at the next task with his brain fully oxygenated, and even his muscles will feel better than if he rode in a car. But the e bike may not work efficiently if the distance is more than 15 miles per trip, which will end up being an hour travel time, vs 20 min in the truck or van.

But in general, it totally makes sense for a worker that travels shorter distances. Especially in places where a truck or van cannot park close to the work. That bike might even be allowed into the building! or at least, the trailer can wheel in like garden cart. Make the trailer a max 30" wide.

I did a much smaller maintenance job, on condos that measured one mile if you walked the entire square's streets. there was very limited parking for any kind of car or truck, so much of the work was done on foot, carting tools or landscape debris in a rolling trashcan. We had a saying, one lap is an hours pay.

That changed the instant I became the boss. I got pedal trikes, and towed garden trailers. The painter for example, would tow a train of trailers. One full of dropcloths, one with 25 gallons of paint, all colors. And the tool bucket in the trikes basket. At times, you'd just have to run back to the workshop for something, wash a brush, grab a fresh tool because your roller frame broke, take a pee, etc. On the trike, one lap was only 10 min pay. Used to cost up to an hours pay for the employee to take a pee!

This can work similarly for you, particularly for those who go around working on 6 different locations a day, fixing a door, touching up paint, etc. If they have to walk 100 feet to the truck 10 times, that's a quarter mile of walking, vs the bike parked right at the door, or even inside. The bike can go on delicate landscape that cannot be driven on too.

You will of course, need trailers that lock for the tools. Again, you can have a welder make custom trailers that carry a lockable box. Old extension ladders can make a great flat bed trailer frame.

dogman dan said:

In terms of just miles per gallon equivalent, the savings will be spectacular. Any vehicle that much smaller will be, including small gas vehicles. big truck in the city, might be as low as 10 mpg, while the ebike, even the big loaded down one, will be getting more like 100 mpg equivalent. Expect about 60 watt hours per mile.

Click to expand...

Using the EPA's MPGe equivalent of 33.7khw/gal, 60 watt hours/mile = about 562 MPGe.

With Canada's typical cost per KWH at around 10 cents U.S., the energy cost per mile is less than one penny. So the real cost in operation will be capital outlay and maintenance. Tire and brake pad costs alone for e-bikes seems to significantly exceed that for cars - at least so far in my personal limited experience.

Pulling a trailer with a bike kind of sucks. I mean, it doesn't suck THAT bad, and probably not at 20mph for sure, but when you're on it if you need to back up or make a tight u-turn, it becomes kind of a PITA.

I built a bike trailer for my bike once, and towed it fully loaded a few times (~250lb) up to about 45mph.. and let me tell you.. taking a turn and/or braking.. is SCARY. At any speed. I ended up slowing down with it a good bit, but even at 20-30mph it was uncomfortable.

Can I suggest using cargo trikes instead. They never fall over, they can carry a lot of weight, and maneuvering them is much easier than a bike with a trailer. At 20mph it will never be unstable.

Here's my trailer, the cargo box is 48"x19", it has 26" front wheels. It is 31" wide to fit through a 32" gate, and the frame is built from 1.5" square box tubing. pretty heavy duty!

My Mk I trailer was built along the same lines yours was, more or less, and it had problems becuase of the COG of the load, especially with a big wiggly dog in it. It tipped over (taking the bike with it) once, IIRC just changing lanes too quickly trying to get out of the way of traffic and into a left turn lane slot in the median curb.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18671


Mk II
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=54323
and Mk III showed me a lower deck with smaller wheels is a compromise that leads to poor ride quality except at low speeds or on smooth roads.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63781






But if the trailer deck is low (but with big wheels for good ride quality, axles above the deck like my Mk IV) and wide, and has a good tongue and hitch system that is designed for the loading it will see (in all directions), it'll handle fine in a turn.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76539


I can't say how it'd do above 20MPH as that's the limit here in AZ, but the principle should hold there, too.


If you still have your trailer, and would like to be able to use it without the problems caused by higher COG, you can lower the deck the same way the Mk IV does. As long as it clears speed bumps and driveway entrance/exit curbs, it'll work.

I'm using the same method to get larger rear wheels on a newer slightly smaller version of the SB Cruiser trike for my brother.

BTW, having the dropouts above the deck means its' very easy to change a whole wheel even with a loaded trailer, if you have anything to hold the trailer up at the same height it starts at, while you take the wheel off. Can't do that with a wheel that has to go downward and out the bottom of the frame. (single-ended axles also work, with open frame to the side, but they don't handle as much load for the same axle/etc size).



Backing up...that takes practice...a lot of it. :/ Using my mirrors helps a lot (turning my head all the way around while dealing with handlebars isn't practical or pain-free, unlike a car's steering wheel).

U-turns...yeah, that requires designing the tongue length and placement around being able to do that, which also alters the loading of the hitch, which can affect the handling and other things.

Braking...that depends on your brakes. Also having them on the trailer would be a big improvement over only having them on the bike/trike. I don't have that yet, but it's planned.



I could've used them when I hauled almost 600lbs of dog food home, though--while the trailer wasnt' a pig in handling, it wasn't exactly responsive to stopping instantly despite how powerful the EABS on the trike is, and the sturdy automotive ball-hitch I use. :lol:


Handles two St Bernards fine, though (one in the trike, one in teh trailer).


Works on the bike, too





But a trike big enough to haul everything without a trailer would be better. I can do almost everything without the trailer--but sometimes stuff just doesnt' fit or takes too many trips of smaller loads.

Nice. Yea 600lbs is no joke! Axle above is definitely the way to go. I just did mine like I did cause it was easy. There is a guy on bike forums, and a thread, about surge brakes. Someday...

Here it is, post 11
https://www.bikeforums.net/utility-cycling/915724-trailer-brakes.html

Surge-brakes--I meant to mention those, too; they're discussed in one of the trailer threads (Mk III, I think) and I have ideas on implementing htem so I don't have ot have cabling up to the bike's bars to operate them.

Thanks for hte link to that thread; this post there
https://www.bikeforums.net/16127073-post11.html
by turbo1889 specifically goes into some stuff about how to implement surge brakes, that should be helpful; this article might too:
http://appropriatetechnology.wikispaces.com/Bicycle+Trailer+Hitch+Braking+System

For smaller loads (i.e. toolbox, misc parts) I would suggest what motorcyclist call a a top box. If you look at my "Grocery Getter" (see signature) you can see where I used an ammo box for this purpose. In your application it would probably be helpful to have some sort of removable mounting system.

For somewhat larger loads: "I love my Travoy". There are similar designs including at least one user here that converted a two wheel dolly (URL below). Nice thing about this approach is that when you arrive at your location you simply disconnect the trailer and pull your tools/material right to the job location.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=86115

For larger/heavier loads I would suggest reverting to a cage (i.e. car or truck or golf cart). I used to work for a company that had two building in the same industrial park.We had two golf carts to move materials/people between the buildings. The dang carts were always at the other building.