First E-Bike Setup - Good Choice?

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Mar 13, 2009
Messages
11
Hello,

I'm new to the forum and e-biking and I am in the process of planning my first electric commute bike. I have been reading this forum for a few weeks now and I have decided that a kit is probably my best choice for my first time around.

I would appreciate any assistance/comments on getting the best setup for my application. Here is what I would like the bike to be able to do:

max speed of 30mph
cruising speed of 25ish mph with lot's of pedal assist (I want the exercise, but want to have energy left over at the end of the week to play with my kids).
Morning commute - 12 miles on bike (11 miles flat, 1 mile of 14% grade), the rest on train
Evening commute - 35 miles. 3 steep hills, some rolling hills and lots of flat.

I'm 200lbs and an avid road and mountain biker

The setup that I have come up with (based on budget and estimated performance) is:

ebikes.ca Nine Continent Conversion Kit
Ping 48V 20AH V2.5 LiFePO4 Battery Pack
K2 Cyclocross 700c road bike (already own)

Does this sound like a reasonable and trustworthy setup for my application? I would appreciate any suggestions/comments from the community.

I have read a lot in the past few weeks and there are some very bright people on this forum. I, on the other hand, will most likely get a bit lost if you go too technical on me :). This is my first time dealing with electric motors and batteries...

Thanks in advance for your comments/suggestions,

Scott
 
Scott, welcome to ES :D I'm fairly new here as well and second your statement: there really are some bright people here!

I can vouch for the 9 Continents kit. I've only had it for about 6 months, but I am very happy with it. I bought it from AmpedBikes.com and they were great!

The 48v 20ah Lifepo4 battery you referred to should set you back around $500. A few of us on ES are using Bosch 36v tool batteries which are an option for you to consider. Each Bosch BAT836, when wired in parallel, will get you about 3 miles without any pedaling, and they only cost $46 each delivered (ebay)!

Good luck, and I look forward to seeing how the bike comes along :wink:

-G
 
ebikes.ca is a good vendor from what I've read.
I can also vouch for the ampedbikes kit. If I could go back and do it again I'd still buy the 9 cont from ampedbikes. From what I've read there is an issue with low speed application on the ebikes.ca kit. Something about not using the hall effect sensors so it is choppy to get going from a stop.
 
Pretty good choices. I doubt though, that you will get much more than 25 miles at high speed out of the battery. So you need to think about what to do about the 35 mile trip. Slowing down a lot will work.

It sounds like you are pretty strong, but still, pedaling a bike with 30 more pounds on it gets old fast. A gearmotor, that has an internal freewheel produces the least drag when not energized. This allows pulse and glide hypermiling to work better, where you motor, coast, pedal, then motor some more. I'm not sure though, if the ezee is fast enough for you, but the bmc 600 watt is supposed to be fast. The problem with cogging resistance on direct drive motors is that is is porportional to speed. So what feels negligible at 5 mph, gets to be a bear if you are trying to hypermile at a fast speed. But a gearmotor will coast real nice for you on the flat parts.
 
Welcome to the forum.

your choice of setup looks good. the only hitch I see in the plan is the 14% grade. Thats going to be tough for most motors, but anything that could do it easier woul;dn't give you nearly the range you want. Just be prepared to pedal alot up that part.

the 35 mile range return trip is going to be tough, but possable on the Nine Continents motor with that battery, but not at full speed. Get a Cycle Analyst and controller from Ebikes.ca, even if you get the motor somewhere else. That will give you a better view of how much power you are using, and how much you have left. you would need to maintain an average of 27whathours/mile or less to make it on that battery. thats easy at 15mph, but much harder as the speed increases or into a headwind.
 
Just make sure you get the fast nine continent motor and not the slow one. Might want to ask Nomad85 about that. Here is what I would do if I were you. I'd get it from ebikes.ca like you are doing but I'd get the 2806 and put it on the 700cc rim instead of the 2807. The 2806 is faster with almost the same torque as the 2807. It will cost you about $40 more to do that but it's worth it if you ask me. check out the simulator and see for yourself

http://ebikes.ca/simulator/

how far it would be if you didn't go on train? Have you thought about a fold-up bike since you are planning on going on a train?
 
Thanks for the input theyerb, JinbaIttai, dogman drunkskunk and morph999. I have some more info to research now, but I would prefer to get this right the first time...

I was looking at the ebike.ca kit because it comes standard with the Cycle Analyst already included in the price. I'll look into the low speed issue.

I liked the Ezee kit a lot too, but the price is what got me. Do you think it's worth the investment? Sounds like that kit would be better at climbing and if there is less friction while pedaling, that would be nice. Since I have never ridden an electric bike I'm not sure how I would feel about the drag on a non-geared motor. I do like the speed of the Nine Continents kit, though. I know I would enjoy the extra un-assisted speed in the wee hours of the morning on the way to the train (I'm not much of a morning person). So many things to consider!

I'll do some research on the Bosch batteries. Can you suggest other batteries that I should look into while I'm at it? Also, can someone point me to good info on a batteries "C" rating. I think that is an area I need to explore more to have a better understanding in the battery area.

Thanks for the motor info, morph999. I didn't know they where open to custom configurations. I'll check into this also. My morning commute would be the same as the evening one if I skip the train. About 35 miles. Foldups are nice, but out of my budget right now. My wife would kill me if there was yet another bike in the garage :) The train does have a bike car so I'm covered there.

Thanks!
 
If you are getting a nine-continent motor, you can get a lifepo4 battery if you want from http://pingbattery.com . He's got the best reputation and prices or nearly the best prices.

hightekbikes.com just put out their new batteries which are among the cheapest in the USA for lifepo4. Pingbattery ships from China so you have to add about $100 on for shipping.

If you want 48v battery, hightekbikes.com is going to put out their 48v batteries soon but I don't know how long that will be.

There is also ebay but you never know what you will get on there. Here is some batteries that I was looking at a couple days ago. I was going to get 6 or 8 of these and make my own battery. http://cgi.ebay.com/22-2v-4000mAh-15C-LiPo-6-Cell-6s-RC-Battery-22-2-WF_W0QQitemZ150332138677QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN?hash=item150332138677&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

That's probably the cheapest LIPO batteries you will find. Those don't last as long as lifepo4, though. Those are lithium polymer which handle higher current. Lifepo4 handles less current but lasts longer but you are using a nine continent so you can get either one.
 
Hi,

morph999 said:
Here is some batteries that I was looking at a couple days ago. I was going to get 6 or 8 of these and make my own battery. http://cgi.ebay.com/22-2v-4000mAh-15C-L ... .m63.l1177

That's probably the cheapest LIPO batteries you will find. Those don't last as long as lifepo4, though. Those are lithium polymer which handle higher current. Lifepo4 handles less current but lasts longer but you are using a nine continent so you can get either one.

lifepo4 are very safe. LIPO are dangerous unless you know exactly what you are doing and are very careful. NOT a good recommendation for a beginner, particularly raw cells for a DIY pack.
 
Let's see if I can get this right...

"C rate" is the discharge rate (or charging rate) that a given battery can produce. A c-rate of "1" means the "transfer of all stored energy in the battery in one hour." A c-rate of "2" would mean that they energy in the battery can be discharged safely in .5 hours. A c-rate of 10, as I understand the Bosch 36v packs generally carry, can be discharged in 6 minutes.

I think most ebikes don't require anywhere near the higher c-rates because the motors don't run that fast... but I'm curious now:

Would I be able to tell a difference between some 5c batteries and some 30c batteries on my AmpedBikes kit???

Is there a c-limit that the motor can use up, or is that just the watts per hour?
 
ambienttree said:
I liked the Ezee kit a lot too, but the price is what got me. Do you think it's worth the investment? .......

..... Also, can someone point me to good info on a batteries "C" rating. I think that is an area I need to explore more to have a better understanding in the battery area.

Thanks!


The EZee kit is very nice, but it tops out under 20mph, and it's cruise efficancy is lower than a conventional direct drive motor. Its what is known as a geared hub. Geared hubs are great for low end torque, climbing, and low speed efficancy, but suck at high speed effancy. the Nine continents Motor is a direct drive, and one of the most efficent motors available.

What Morph suggest with the Nine continents kit wouldn't work either. Taking a motor ment for a 20" wheel and stuffing it in a 700c rim would be fast, sure... but it would curl up and die on a steap hill, and wouldn't run efficently at all. It would be the equivilent of you replacing your 52something front chain ring with an 80 tooth, then trying to ride.
Sure, you would be faster in theory, but you wouldn't get very far.

"C" rating is basicly a way of saying how much power the battery can produce safely for a full duty cycle.
The "C" stands for Capacity.
The Capacity is usualy stated as a battery's Amp hours (Ah).
An Amp hour is how many amps a battery can supply for 1 hour. then it's dead.
So..
A 48V 20Ah Battery with a "C" rating of 2 would be able to safely supply 40 amps of power for as long as it had the capacity to do so... in this case, 40 amps for 30 minutes.

The higher the C rating, the less voltage sag you'll notice if you are pulling anything close to the C rating. I notice a diffrence between my old 2C battery and my new 20C battery, but only under hard acceleration.
 
if you want to know about a nine continent hub motor, ask Nomad85. He rides his like every day of the week.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6403
 
morph999 said:
nevermind....I give bad advice...don't listen to me...
Lipo batteries are fine if used properly, but some experience with them is good, and make sure to get good ones like zippy or better, no unknown ebay stuff, someone bought those and they already had a cell failure. Two 6s lipo packs(not loose cells) in series would power most bikes for 5-10 miles and would be really easy to make, but still not really for beginners, unless they have experience discharging/charing lipos already.
 
Thanks everyone for the information and support. I'm feeling pretty confident that I would be happy with my original choices to start out:

ebikes.ca Nine Continent Conversion Kit (cycle analyst included)
Ping 48V 20AH V2.5 LiFePO4 Battery Pack

I'll have to get the balance right for my long commute, but at least the setup sounds feasible and I would have some extra speed for weekend errands, etc.

Thanks again!
 
morph999 said:
That's probably the cheapest LIPO batteries you will find. Those don't last as long as lifepo4, though. Those are lithium polymer which handle higher current. Lifepo4 handles less current but lasts longer but you are using a nine continent so you can get either one.

From that link you posted these are probably the best option.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110359321186&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX_Stores&refitem=150332138677&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget&_trksid=p284.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D4%26ps%3D41
But they cost more than they would at hobbycity.com for a better and higher capacity battery. If your going to buy a cheap lipo hobbycity is the only place to go imo.
 
48v * 20ah= 960wh! I was able to ride over 20 miles without pedaling when I was using my 36v 18ah lead batteries, and they weighed a TON! I imagine you could go well over 30 miles on your Lifepo4 battery 8)
 
With the train, are you taking it on the train or locking it up somewhere? Maybe I missed this..

If you have to lift it much (or often) you'll want to keep the weight down as much as possible.

My 5304 (24lbs) and 20 lbs of batteries makes the rear wheel feel like it's glued to the ground.

I couldn't imagine toting it up a flight of stairs.. :?
 
I think you are closer to the right choice initially than you think. I was thinking that your would end up doing a lot of pedaling going home with the original choices for two reasons.

1 I was thinking 30 mph speed. Any way you slice it, 30 mph costs you watts. You no doubt know this well from pedaling at speeds like that. An easy ride at 15 mph, is a bear if you try to go 30 mph.

2 I was thinking 36v which is what I have. With a 48v 20 ah battery you have 1/4 more watthours. So my range at 22 mph is about 22 miles, that is full throttle. adding 25% you get about 27.5 miles IF you back off the throttle to 22 mph. a few more miles gained by high pressure tires and a aero position and it could be possible as long as the wind is not in your face too bad.

But the real issue is battery capacity, not the motor choice. One good way to carry more battery is to carry two, that carry better in panniers anyway. A realy huge battery is kinda hard to find a place for, so two batteries paralell connected but carried in panniers is a good solution. Pingbattery and others make a 12 or 15 ah lifepo4 battery. So a 24 or even better 30 ah pair of batteries will give you the 35 mile range you need. If money is tight, mabye you could take the train both ways, and just buy one battery initially?

As for the c rate, it won't be a big issue for your if your build a 35 mile range bike, unless you go with a big cyrstalyte motor. If you buy 30 ah of lifepo4, that should even run that motor with no big problems. Voltage sag caused by too low a c rate is generally only a problem with short range battery packs.
 
before you buy, you might want to take a look at hightekbikes.com. They have some great buys in my opinion.

$879 for everything including a 36v 20ah lifepo4. Damn. Some websites charge $900 for just the battery.
http://hightekbikes.com/kits.html
 
Before you order that ping 48v 20ah, remember that ping will build it split in half if you want to do a pannier-style battery mounting. It's much harder to split it once it's been built and shipped. Same price.
 
I really strongly second morph's recommendation to ask for the 2806 in a 26" rim instead of the default 2807. I have both and I really love the 2806, but the 2807 sucks compared to the 2806. There is no advantage to the 2807, the 2806 is just as good at hills and pretty much the same efficiency, it will be less efficient at full throttle only because it can go so much faster, at the same speed you would get similar range. I think its silly that ebikes.ca even sells that crappy motor. Great kit though, the Cycle analyst is AWESOME.
 
nomad85 said:
I really strongly second morph's recommendation to ask for the 2806 in a 26" rim instead of the default 2807.

Do you think the 2806 would be as efficient in a 700c wheel? That's what I'm setup with.

Thanks to everyone on the battery suggestions. Being a newbie I think I will stick with LiFeP04 for safety and lifespan, and make sure I order it in a suitable format so I don't have to mess with battery building/disecting. Maybe once I'm more involved I'll look into building my own batteries.
 
Oh yeah.... since I'm set on a LiFePo4 48v 20ah battery (or two 24v 10ah or 15ah batteries in parallel), has anyone found a US dealer with good prices? I can't seem to find an available 48v 20ah battery in the US.

If there is not an option in the US, I learned of ping through this forum, are there others one can trust? I would hate to make a bad purchase.... High tech bikes looks nice, but they only offer 36v options.

Thanks!
 
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