a storm is brewing on the mountain

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a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Dec 23, 2017 12:03 pm

there is a storm brewing on the mountain :

https://www.facebook.com/groups/fastebi ... 380063720/
some ride & sk8 videos:
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http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by amberwolf » Dec 23, 2017 2:46 pm

Since it won't let non-fb people see it, you should post the article itself in your post.

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by Wolfeman » Dec 23, 2017 2:48 pm

25594384_10215296468106987_2311599067240597292_n.jpg
25594384_10215296468106987_2311599067240597292_n.jpg (178.75 KiB) Viewed 1011 times
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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by markz » Dec 23, 2017 5:32 pm

That fellow is raking in the green backs with all the bikes he is spitting out of China. Look at all them angles on the frame.

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by slacker » Dec 23, 2017 9:13 pm

If he can keep the price under 1000.00 he will have a winner on his hands. JMO.

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by Chalo » Dec 24, 2017 4:14 am

slacker wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 9:13 pm
If he can keep the price under 1000.00 he will have a winner on his hands. JMO.
If he can keep the price under USD 1000, everyone who buys one will have a steaming turd on his hands.
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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by Buk___ » Dec 24, 2017 4:19 am

Chalo wrote:
Dec 24, 2017 4:14 am
If he can keep the price under USD 1000, everyone who buys one will have a steaming turd on his hands.
What would be the minimum price you'd accept to not be a steaming turd, and what components would it have?

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by Chalo » Dec 24, 2017 2:38 pm

Buk___ wrote:
Dec 24, 2017 4:19 am
Chalo wrote:
Dec 24, 2017 4:14 am
If he can keep the price under USD 1000, everyone who buys one will have a steaming turd on his hands.
What would be the minimum price you'd accept to not be a steaming turd, and what components would it have?
I don't know. I know the minimum wholesale price bike shops pay for bikes that I'd trust to electrify is about $350. No suspension, rim brakes. Since Sondors's model is direct to consumer, we can compare his retail price to a bike shop's wholesale cost.

The wholesale cost for an entry level bike set up like the one in the photo, with dual suspension and disc brakes, which meets the criterion of having robust enough components to deal with motor power and higher than normal speeds, is about $850. That's a totally generic frame made from tubing, so it's cheaper than the custom cradle and proprietary gearbox frame in the picture.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the special frame only adds $50 more in a direct to consumer sale (which seems doubtful). So that's $900 for a complete bike in a box, with no motor, battery, reduction gearing, or electronics.

Many if not most of us get electric kits at direct to consumer prices, so we're familiar which how much that stuff costs. Decide for yourself what the electric kit on that bike should cost if you buy it as components from a Chinese seller. Add it to $900. That's how little I think the bike could cost and possibly not be a waste of everybody's time and money.

I'm thinking it would be remarkable to do it for under $2000. By which point all the mouth breathers are yelling, "but yuh could buy a car fer that much!" And right there, you lost much of the target market.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by markz » Dec 24, 2017 2:47 pm

Sondors probably is just taking an existing frame from any number of China manufacturers, and having bare bottom components. Overall it could just lipstick and makeup on his turd. If anyone can tell what the shock is, it will be a major clue, if its not an upgraded part.

Its probably going to be around the $1200 mark, is my best guess. Costing Sondors under the 1k mark. Then you pay for shipping, so $1500usd all in.



Didnt take long to find a random sampling - $1300usd
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/26-lith ... eLevelAB=5

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... b819iNXCiS

This ones close but not FS
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... b819iNXCiS

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... b819iNXCiS

Pretty darn close - He could easily switch up the swing arm bracket.
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... b819iNXCiS

OK thought about it some more, so Sondors is making thousands of these, his market up could be thin so he can sell to the masses. If he can get enmass a factory in China spitting these out by the thousands, then his bottom line could be $750, add a diff battery +$100, stickers to brand. Then sell it a hair over 1G.

Time will see, be interesting to follow this one on a casual basis, like watching a circus.

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by Chalo » Dec 24, 2017 3:43 pm

markz wrote:
Dec 24, 2017 2:47 pm
If he can get enmass a factory in China spitting these out by the thousands, then his bottom line could be $750, add a diff battery +$100, stickers to brand. Then sell it a hair over 1G.
That's the "waste of everybody's time and money" scenario I was talking about. I don't think he'll fail to deliver a bike for less than $2k. I think he'll fail to deliver an acceptably functional and durable bike for under $2k. It will be a toy, like the other Sondors bikes.

With any luck, it will be convertible to a more legitimate bike by spending on upgrades all the money that you saved by buying a Sondors instead of a real bike.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by MadRhino » Dec 25, 2017 1:10 am

It will sell, because there are enough ignorants and dreamers, who are the target market for cheap crap in a nice package.

Ignorants are buying by the looks and colours, for they can’t tell a good bike from a BSO.

Dreamers are buying by the price because they believe in the fairytale that a whole good bike can be made for the cost of a good suspension alone.

It is an immitation of common BB drive MTB’s models that are offered by bicycle manufacturers for avg 5000$. It has the looks, but every bit of it is the cheapest crap and copy that can be found on the Chinese market.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Dec 26, 2017 1:11 pm

MadRhino wrote:
Dec 25, 2017 1:10 am
It will sell, because there are enough ignorants and dreamers, who are the target market for cheap crap in a nice package.

Ignorants are buying by the looks and colours, for they can’t tell a good bike from a BSO.

Dreamers are buying by the price because they believe in the fairytale that a whole good bike can be made for the cost of a good suspension alone.

It is an imitation of common BB drive MTB’s models that are offered by bicycle manufacturers for avg 5000$. It has the looks, but every bit of it is the cheapest crap and copy that can be found on the Chinese market.
since no one has the bike in hand yet then I will withhold some judgment myself..

but with consumer direct sales, sondors should be able to put out at least a half decent product for a reasonable price.. will it be as nice as a hiabike or trek, etc.. not likely, but I think many could be satisfied with half the bike (quality) for half the price..

after all, we ignorant mouth breathers will want something to ride while waiting for technology to catch up with my budget..

continuing with the dream, I wonder if it will be available in different sizes, will it have torque or speed sensor for the pas, will it have a throttle??

I like how sondors has been stirring up the industry a bit.. some of the major bike manufacturers have taken notice as well and will be offering consumer direct sales.. while other manufacturers are reaching towards lower ebike prices by dividing their product line into a more affordable "sport" line and the higher price/ performance "extreme" line..

either way prices are starting to come down while consumer choices and performance are going up.. its a fun and interesting time to be in the ebike "sphere".. 8)
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by LewTwo » Dec 26, 2017 6:14 pm

amberwolf wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 2:46 pm
Since it won't let non-fb people see it, you should post the article itself in your post.
Amen
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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by slacker » Dec 26, 2017 6:34 pm

As chalo infers if this steaming pile of turds gets people off the couch and riding that is a good thing Not everyone needs or cares if they are riding a 1000.00$ bike or a walmart bso, ask wesnell? I believe he rides a walmart bike?. Just getting people out and enjoying the fresh air and riding to me is a plus. Not everyone is a bike snob and if sondors brings a new bike to the market and introduces a new segment to biking that is a good thing. I enjoy riding and like this group but some people need to just let go of their preconceived notions that if it is a department store bike it can not be a good ride.Different strokes for different folks. I am guessing the guy with the racoon on his head will disagree but so be it. Hope you all had a great christmas and a happy new year.

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Dec 26, 2017 6:50 pm

sorry guys, I'm still learning how to use the sphere on my smart azz phone.. the link just goes to a picture i saw on a facebook ebike group..

Wolfeman, posted the picture on the thread for us (thanks!) and the picture pretty much speaks for itself I think..

but just in case some don't get it then its just a heads up that sondors will be adding a mid drive mountain bike to their lineup of affordable consumer direct ebike sales in 2018.. that's about all we know for now (until TV fills us in with more details??)..
LewTwo wrote:
Dec 26, 2017 6:14 pm
amberwolf wrote:
Dec 23, 2017 2:46 pm
Since it won't let non-fb people see it, you should post the article itself in your post.
Amen
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by Chalo » Dec 26, 2017 7:10 pm

slacker wrote:
Dec 26, 2017 6:34 pm
I enjoy riding and like this group but some people need to just let go of their preconceived notions that if it is a department store bike it can not be a good ride.
As a longtime cycle mechanic, I've probably ridden more godforsaken BSOs than anybody else here. And also more real bikes. So yes, I do have a prejudice against BSOs, but it's based on real experience servicing them and even riding them as necessary. It isn't the idea of them that I don't like-- it's them.

I'm quick to tell folks that if you must buy a department store bike, make it a beach cruiser. They have fewer deficiencies than other BSOs, are easier to set right, and are more likely to work more or less correctly.

But the more features a BSO has, the more harmful cost cutting has been done, and the more things there are that need to work but don't, and the farther the bike will fall short of reasonable expectations. That's the trap this new Sondors design represents. There's just a whole lot of stuff on it that must work correctly for it to be worth the trouble, and very little likelihood that all of it will work correctly.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by slacker » Dec 26, 2017 10:06 pm

chalo wrote. But the more features a BSO has, the more harmful cost cutting has been done, and the more things there are that need to work but don't, and the farther the bike will fall short of reasonable expectations. That's the trap this new Sondors design represents. There's just a whole lot of stuff on it that must work correctly for it to be worth the trouble, and very little likelihood that all of it will work correctly . As i said earlier if it gets people off their ass i do not think most will care if it has the best derailer system or disc vs. rim brakes. or suspension vs. rigid hardtail. Alot of people just ride and enjoy the outdoors. If sondors puts out a fully suspension mid drive without top notch components and people buy it and ride it thats a good thing. Hope you and your racoon have a good day.

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by MadRhino » Dec 27, 2017 2:04 am

Getting people off their ass is good, but they won’t stay off their ass very long if their bike is a neverending succession of visits to the bike shop for repairs that are not making it any better, and minimal upgrades that soon cost more than the whole bike. For most who bought a cheap crap ebike, the story is ending there because they don’t believe anymore that ebikes can be good and reliable.

Let us forget the E- components and talk bike only. Even a fair, entry level FS bike is a lot of maintenance already. We say they are on the market to parse the curious from the serious. Serious riders will soon buy a better one after they realized a 2000$ FS bike is not robust enough, and the curious will ride moderately for a while before letting it rot in a shed.

If your budget is 1000$ for an ebike, don’t go buying anything that is FS or looking like an expansive bike. Your budget is for a minimal power hardtail without any fancy features. Stop dreaming that one can make a proper disc brake set for the cost of replacement pads, or a shock for the cost of an O’ring rebuild kit.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by LewTwo » Dec 27, 2017 3:10 am

I am going to play the devil's advocate here ...

A lot depends on what one needs in a bicycle or a E-bike. My "Grocery Getter" is arguably a BSO (bike shaped object). The tig welded aluminum frame is even a bit short for me if it was a normal bike that I had to pedal. Granted that in the conversion to an E-Bike I changed out a number of the components and even added a few luxury items like the suspension seat post and cloud9 seat. However it still has the cheap pogo-stick fork and the sorry Golden Motor rims (although they mount Big Apple tires). The brakes are the original cheap mechanical "V" brakes (in need of new pads) but they do a very adequate job of stopping the bike, myself and my Travoy trailer. I do not ride in the rain. I never go over about 25 MPH but usually cruise at about 20 MPH. Any faster and my eyes start to water. I only ride on pavement (or what passes for pavement in Houston) and I never jump curbs or ride down stairs. The only failure I have had has been the battery charger and I have replaced it with the cheaper, more reliable version. I also love not having to clean or oil the chain. I do have to check the front fork dropouts at least once a month just be sure there are no cracks forming.

If I were spry young thing determined to bounce up and down back woods trails as fast as I could manage then I am sure it would have failed at some point. My point being I am very satisfied with my converted BSO because it meets my needs. Perhaps I am the exception but I seriously doubt I am the 'only' exception.

A lot of people buy bicycles, even expensive name brand ones, ride then for a few months one summer and stick then in the garage. There they sit for five to ten years until they decide to clean out the garage. They discover the chain has rusted and the tires have dry rotted and put them on craigslist. That is fine because then someone who really needs a good bike frame can pick one up as a bargain ... and the origonal purchasers help keep their LBS in business.
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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by slacker » Dec 27, 2017 11:53 am

lewtwo, spot on and could not agree more. Since i have at my disposal a catrike expedition, brompton folding bike, downtube folding bike, sons giant escape, trek 7.1 fx and a mongoose dolomite fat bike they each have their purpose and all are fun to ride regardless what they cost. sure the brompton and catrike are more refined and ride a little smoother i find enjoyment riding all of them so no you are not a anomaly. so if storm comes out with a new product and sells a lot that is good for all. let the haters hate. Good day and good luck.

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by Chalo » Dec 27, 2017 1:40 pm

That's like saying the Genesis V2100 from Walmart has been good for cycling because it's sold like crazy. But in fact it hasn't been good for anybody, other than maybe a few kids who got some exercise for a short time because they didn't know any better than their busted BSO.

Setting people up with machines that don't work is training them to be oblivious to machines in distress when it matters. Do you want to share the highway with folks whose inclination is to think "what's that noise? Ah, who cares?"
Last edited by Chalo on Dec 27, 2017 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by LewTwo » Dec 27, 2017 3:28 pm

Chalo wrote:
Dec 27, 2017 1:40 pm
... Do you want to share the highway with folks whose inclination is to think "what's that noise? Ah, who cares?"
We already do that and most of 'em are in big heavy cages.

(PS ... with the weather this week even I like being in one of those cages) :oops:
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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 27, 2017 5:16 pm

Its possible they started from raw aluminum of a good quality, and invested in designing the bike for affordable DFM, and made their own quality forging tooling or stamp press tooling for every part.

If a company did all that, and then also decided not to charge high margins, it would be possible to be high quality with good functionality for a low price due to the vertical integration.

It also might be that a company spends that few million $$$ in engineering and tooling and then never sells enough volume to even break even, so it's definitely a gamble to attempt.

No argument that realistically it's likely to be a cheap pile of shoddy Chinese bike parts, but it's not strictly a hard requirement that a low cost bike must suck if someone invested to do it right.
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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by slacker » Dec 27, 2017 6:55 pm

well said lfp. good luck convincing chalo that someone could actually enjoy riding a cheap bike. I personally enjoy riding bikes and do not care if they cost 100.00$ or 10000.00$ dollars. just get out and ride.

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Re: a storm is brewing on the mountain

Post by Chalo » Dec 27, 2017 8:40 pm

LewTwo wrote:
Dec 27, 2017 3:28 pm
Chalo wrote:
Dec 27, 2017 1:40 pm
... Do you want to share the highway with folks whose inclination is to think "what's that noise? Ah, who cares?"
We already do that and most of 'em are in big heavy cages.
Agreed. My point is that starting folks on unfixable bikes helps train them to be insensitive to malfunctioning machines for the rest of their lives. You won't learn to seek "proper operating condition" if there's no such thing with the stuff you own. I suspect that's where slacker is coming from.
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