E-bike restricted trail access and hate

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 03 2018 8:12am

I agree that a cheap throttle is more accurate than a cheap pedelec. And would open up the market to cheap hub drive conversions at any bike shop. The Class 1 definition came from Europe where they actually have millions of people commuting to work on bikes every day in big cities. The idea is to make sure it is still a bicycle. Not an electric moped. So no need for licenses. Pedelec or torque sensing with a restricted top speed. You may still pedal or coast down hill faster if you like. Fortunately the West Coast USA enthusiasts and manufacturers lobbied for a higher , 20 mph/ 32 kph speed limit. The Euros are stuck with 25 kph.
.
But you have to admit that some rules and definitions would have to be agreed upon to gain acceptance on streets and trails and legality. You can't have a Wild West scenario with ebikes. If you want to use your energy to promote ebikes, let's get rid of THIS type of backward thinking: NEW fines starting 2018 for ebike use in New York City for delivery riders AND their employers.
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -crackdown
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Post THAT in the "non ebike news" thread.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Feb 03 2018 10:05am

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 03 2018 8:12am
I agree that a cheap throttle is more accurate than a cheap pedelec. And would open up the market to cheap hub drive conversions at any bike shop. The Class 1 definition came from Europe where they actually have millions of people commuting to work on bikes every day in big cities. The idea is to make sure it is still a bicycle. Not an electric moped. So no need for licenses. Pedelec or torque sensing with a restricted top speed. You may still pedal or coast down hill faster if you like. Fortunately the West Coast USA enthusiasts and manufacturers lobbied for a higher , 20 mph/ 32 kph speed limit. The Euros are stuck with 25 kph.
.
But you have to admit that some rules and definitions would have to be agreed upon to gain acceptance on streets and trails and legality. You can't have a Wild West scenario with ebikes. If you want to use your energy to promote ebikes, let's get rid of THIS type of backward thinking: NEW fines starting 2018 for ebike use in New York City for delivery riders AND their employers.
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -crackdown
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Post THAT in the "non ebike news" thread.
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Simple speed limits would be better IMO (at least for street riding where you aren't concerned about trail damage). That is much less complicated and easier to enforce than motor power based regulations. It also allows greater flexibility in making bikes for different riders with different situations (weight, terrain, disabilities - documented and otherwise.)
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Feb 03 2018 11:11am

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 03 2018 8:12am
The Class 1 definition came from Europe...
Oh... that's interesting... did not know that. HAVE read about the newer "Speed" pedelecs... any links? Would really just like to see some "real world testing" to back up ANY laws, "rules", etc?

Re the Canadian "power-assisted bicycle" the Gov't. did quite a bit of testing before developing their law:
http://data.tc.gc.ca/archive/eng/innova ... 2e-681.htm

(Starts:)
Electric bike 2000 project (TP 13732E)
Transportation Development Centre

Summary
The Electric Bike 2000 Project is part of an initiative to promote the use of electric bicycles (e-bikes) and to document their performance to assist the federal and Quebec governments as they prepare to regulate the use of this new mode of transportation.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Feb 03 2018 1:26pm

fechter wrote:
Feb 03 2018 1:24am
I'm still trying to figure out why there's a distinction between PAS only and bikes with a throttle (Class 1 vs Class 2).
I haven't figured it out either. If PAS-only had a much higher power limit or something, it'd make some sense. But otherwise?

Here in AZ, the proposed change to the law makes the "fast" 28mph ebike require PAS to operate the motor, and my guess on that one is so that LEOs can tell if it is a bicycle or a moped (which from what I've seen doesn't usually even have pedals) without stopping them. ;)

Thus:

If your feet are moving around and going that fast, you're a bicycle, and they leave you alone if you're not doing anything illegal or stupid.

If not, you're a moped, so if you aren't displaying a license plate they can stop and ticket you for the big three (uninsured unregistered unlicensed), or impound the bike, etc.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Chalo » Feb 03 2018 2:42pm

amberwolf wrote:
Feb 03 2018 1:26pm
fechter wrote:
Feb 03 2018 1:24am
I'm still trying to figure out why there's a distinction between PAS only and bikes with a throttle (Class 1 vs Class 2).
I haven't figured it out either. If PAS-only had a much higher power limit or something, it'd make some sense. But otherwise?
I think there is a difference in public perception between people who are pedaling on, say, a multi-use path or sidewalk, and those who are conspicuously not pedaling but motoring.

I also think there are qualitative behavioral differences between those e-bike riders who intend to pedal and those who have no intention of pedaling. I'm reminded of "pocket bike" mini motorcycles and the reasons they were banned almost everywhere.

I'm glad there is a Class 1 for e-bikes, because that's our best hope for continuing privileges and exemptions in the future.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by markz » Feb 04 2018 12:22am

Whos to really tell the difference between the two, no public Joe will know if one is sensored or the other one is throttle. Anyone can hide the rear hub motor behind some lycra pannier bags, battery inside bag and say a small compact Grin Tech controller. If you were to use a big ass controller, then black bags, black controller ontop of rack, maybe camoflauge it a bit more to hide it. Like say the rear racks where the battery slides into a shelf on the rear rack, put your controller there. Bags close up the sides, air flows through from front to back.

Add fake pedaling. Who's to know, no one!

The most action I got was some 7pm walkers at night, who's seen me frocking fly on empty sidewalks, but am always beyond courteous when coming up behind peeps. Just they cant hear, so they get startled but I am like footing my bike in pace, a few steps behind them. "Do you got a horn on that thing" is what I heard over my white earphones wearing a black coat. Smile and wave, Thank You, foot past them, little throttle 8' away, full throttle.

Lots of turned heads. I tell you very lenient here, very very very very lenient here with da Fuzzzzz.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Feb 04 2018 12:53am

I have been riding a Currie drive around town the past few weeks doing errands just for sheets and giggles, I bumped one up to 36v. I definitely notice a distinctly different reaction from people when I pass by due to the incessant screaming whine of the motor, they can likely hear me coming from a block away. People hardly notice me when riding my other bikes with 9C clone or BBSHD but I am getting some looks on the Currie Drive so I'm backing off the throttle a good ways before I pass walkers on the bike paths and when they're in close proximity on sidewalks. Passing mothers with strollers I'm especially trying to be considerate because I realize I could seriously scare young children screaming by sounding like an Ultralight flying by. The up side of the noise of course is I need no bell to let folks know I'm coming up behind them.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by craneplaneguy » Feb 04 2018 11:51am

Part of my riding in town, takes me through a pedestrian tunnel underneath the railroad tracks. The slight whine (when out side anyway) of a previous hub drive was quite noticeable inside the confines of the tunnel. Anyone could tell it was an ebike. Now when I ride my BBS02 conversion thru the same tunnel, the tires make enough noise to totally conceal (not that I care) the fact it's an ebike. Quieter is good. Dead silent even better.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 04 2018 12:00pm

You all are delusional if you think fake pedaling is fooling anyone on the trail, anyone who might matter that is. It is the MTBers who are on the lookout for ebikes where they do not belong and they are the ones who will call the Rangers, cops, etc. to complain. The entire mountain bike community is up in arms about motorized vehicles on bicycle trails (a sizable faction opposes Class 1!) and riding this electric motorcycle on bicycle trails just waving a red flag in their face and daring them to respond.

If you folks are so certain that you will be welcomed with open arms as long as your feet are moving, try poaching on the same trail at the same time every Sunday afternoon for a month and see what happens. It is one thing to make a couple of hit and run raids on bicycle trails, it is another to stick around and deal with the longterm reactions.

In many places MTBs are allowed on hiking and equestrian trails only under sufferance and only after years of negotiations with land managers and others. In other areas the MTB trails were built and are maintained by MTBers for the the use by other human powered users, NOT by motorized cycles. They are slowly coming to grips with the ebike revolution and many, perhaps most, are just fine with low-powered torque sensing eMTBs. What they are not fine with is an electric MX or Enduro cycle!

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 04 2018 12:07pm

That is why we have to have Class 1. It only makes a 60 year old weekend warrior keep up with a 25 year old amature athelete. Nothing more. And MAKE them legal. So that selfish young riders that do not understand what class 1 is have no legal grounds to call the rangers. And to get more people riding again. And legally using classified ebikes for delivery services in big cities which saves clean air and road congestion and parking.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 05 2018 10:26am

So I checked at the local state park office if they would let me ride my electric mountain bike on the bike trails and she first said she had never heard of an electric bicycle??? Then she realized it had a "motor" and immediately lumped it in with 4-wheelers and rc cars. both of which are illegal. All ebikes are still illegal on road, and off road in NY state. I'm so screwed. How do we change this?
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http://peopleforbikes.org/our-work/e-bi ... uDEALw_wcB
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https://www.citylab.com/equity/2016/02/ ... es/426969/
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 05 2018 11:36am

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05 2018 10:26am
So I checked at the local state park office if they would let me ride my electric mountain bike on the bike trails and she first said she had never heard of an electric bicycle??? Then she realized it had a "motor" and immediately lumped it in with 4-wheelers and rc cars. both of which are illegal. All ebikes are still illegal on road, and off road in NY state. I'm so screwed. How do we change this?
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http://peopleforbikes.org/our-work/e-bi ... uDEALw_wcB
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https://www.citylab.com/equity/2016/02/ ... es/426969/
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Education it sounds like the state needs some
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Philaphlous » Feb 05 2018 6:01pm

It's not so much the wattage limit but the speed limit that gets me...I guess its not like a car speed... Ive got 1300w but I still abide by the 15mph speed limit...but they limit it to 500w? Sounds like a speed limit with a hp limit for cars and trucks...

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Feb 05 2018 6:30pm

Philaphlous wrote:
Feb 05 2018 6:01pm
It's not so much the wattage limit but the speed limit that gets me...I guess its not like a car speed... Ive got 1300w but I still abide by the 15mph speed limit...but they limit it to 500w? Sounds like a speed limit with a hp limit for cars and trucks...
Right. That's my point. For non-trail use, the real issue is speed - which is pretty easy to measure directly with existing LEO tools. So why bother with anything other than the most broad (or any) power limits. It's what you do with it that matters. 800 hp, 180 mph capable cars are perfectly legal even though the typical fastest allowable speed is around 75mph. Even small econo-cars typically have the power to exceed 100mph easily.

Of course, an e-bike isn't a motor vehicle, and we are certainly looking to be excepted from many of the motor vehicle regulations due to our relatively low speed, light weight, and power. So there is an argument for some kind of power limit. I just think the regulations should be much more liberal to allow for more utility with trikes, cargo bikes. the legitimate need for accelleration bursts at times, and the like.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Buk___ » Feb 05 2018 7:04pm

wturber wrote:
Feb 05 2018 6:30pm
I just think the regulations should be much more liberal to allow for more utility with trikes, cargo bikes. the legitimate need for accelleration bursts at times, and the like.
I wholeheartedly agree.

It seems like the existing legislation (in Europe at least) is designed to prevent e-bike users from being 'better' than the fittest, healthiest (young) biker. It's almost as if it's designed to support the "e-bikes are cheating" mentality. Almost like saying that you are only allowed to exceed 25kph if you are prepared to get super fit and ride a $$$$ superlight machine.

It'd be interesting to see a challenge to the current legislation from the perspective of how it conflicts with other legislation designed to prevent discrimination against the disabled, aged, etc.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 05 2018 7:07pm

Buk___ wrote:
Feb 05 2018 7:04pm
It seems like the existing legislation (in Europe at least) is designed to prevent e-bike users from being 'better' than the fittest, healthiest (young) biker.
There is logic behind this. The idea is that compared to the maximum capabilities of a human on a bike, that a class 1 e-bike is still just the same as a bike. Not a motorized vehicle. So it needs no different regulation than any other regular bike.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Buk___ » Feb 05 2018 7:34pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05 2018 7:07pm
There is logic behind this. The idea is that compared to the maximum capabilities of a human on a bike, that a class 1 e-bike is still just the same as a bike. Not a motorized vehicle. So it needs no different regulation than any other regular bike.
And if everyone has the same physical capabilities, that might be the right thing, but requiring a fixed 'gain' of motor input, limited such that it doesn't exceed the capabilities of the fittest, healthiest in society, seems discriminatory against those less capable.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Feb 05 2018 7:56pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05 2018 7:07pm
Buk___ wrote:
Feb 05 2018 7:04pm
It seems like the existing legislation (in Europe at least) is designed to prevent e-bike users from being 'better' than the fittest, healthiest (young) biker.
There is logic behind this. The idea is that compared to the maximum capabilities of a human on a bike, that a class 1 e-bike is still just the same as a bike. Not a motorized vehicle. So it needs no different regulation than any other regular bike.
When I was a kid I could ride my Schwinn Typhoon at bursts of up to about 25 mph. As a 30 year old, I could burst to well over 30 mph on flat roads on my modified Dahon (el-cheapo dept. store type) folder. Bikes are routinely allowed to go down hills at speeds well over 30 mph if the riders care to do that.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 05 2018 9:03pm

its almost like they dont want you to have it too easy :pancake: as thats the end result
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 05 2018 9:32pm

wturber wrote:
Feb 05 2018 7:56pm
When I was a kid I could ride my Schwinn Typhoon at bursts of up to about 25 mph. As a 30 year old, I could burst to well over 30 mph on flat roads on my modified Dahon (el-cheapo dept. store type) folder. Bikes are routinely allowed to go down hills at speeds well over 30 mph if the riders care to do that.
You may still do any of that if you like on your class 1 ebike. Up to any posted speed limits of course.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by flat tire » Feb 05 2018 9:56pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05 2018 9:32pm
wturber wrote:
Feb 05 2018 7:56pm
When I was a kid I could ride my Schwinn Typhoon at bursts of up to about 25 mph. As a 30 year old, I could burst to well over 30 mph on flat roads on my modified Dahon (el-cheapo dept. store type) folder. Bikes are routinely allowed to go down hills at speeds well over 30 mph if the riders care to do that.
You may still do any of that if you like on your class 1 ebike. Up to any posted speed limits of course.
What I inferred from wturber's post is that he thinks class 1 ebikes are unnecessarily slow. Like, the assist cuts out too early. It wouldn't be unreasonable to bump class I up to 30 mph. We have some "underground" human power roadbike rides here locally where the peloton cruises at 30+ on flat ground and exceeds 40 occasionally. The can do that and legally get away with it as a consequence of their own little feet pushing the pedals. Why can't someone with a little assist pull the same? Would it just hurt too many feelings?

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 05 2018 10:25pm

Class 2 is 28 mph

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 05 2018 10:37pm

So there are two simlar versions of bills in the NY state legislature to legalize class 1 ebikes. Hopefully they don't get caught up with non-related issues tacked on.
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https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bi ... ment/a#yes
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https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bi ... ment/a#yes
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Feb 05 2018 11:03pm

wturber wrote:
Feb 05 2018 7:56pm
Bikes are routinely allowed to go down hills at speeds well over 30 mph if the riders care to do that.
Unless (in at least some places, like AZ) you have a motor on it--then if you ride any faster (even down a steep hill on a road with a much higher speed limit) than some limit (<20MPH here) in the motorized bicycle definitions, suddenly you're breaking the law.

Which law, and what they do to you...that depends on the place (here in AZ, you're suddenly no longer a bicycle, and instead are considered (based on past incidents for various motorized bicycle riders) an uninsured, unregistered, unlicensed motorcycle rider, as soon as you go faster than "less than 20MPH").

Which is stupid...but it makes it simple for enforcement officers. (who may or may not actually choose to enforce it, but at least they can make the call easily if they choose to)
sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05 2018 9:32pm
You may still do any of that if you like on your class 1 ebike. Up to any posted speed limits of course.
I guess that depends on how they wrote the law and what they choose to do to enforce it. If they wrote it so that the bike is required to just cut out the assist above the limit speed, and it just becomes a bicycle above that, then yes, you could ride as fast as the posted limit on that road (assuming you don't get ticketed for "recklessness" due to the speed, regardless of how safe you're riding, which does happen). If, like in AZ, the law just defines a limit that the bike can be operated below, then that limit is the limit, period, whether you're using the motor or not (because LE has no certain way to know if you were or not, most likely).





Personally, I'm fine with 20MPH as a limit, but a power limit (especially something like 750-1000w) would set me back to the way things were when I was on a pedal-only bike, as far as traffic goes--when I have to accelerate from a stop, like at a traffic light, with cars behind me, if I can't accelerate at least as quickly as they can, some of them get pretty pissed off, and depending on their reactions it can get dangerous. For a cargo-hauler like my stuff, that takes bursts of at least 3-4KW, during acceleration (and possibly more than that continuous for hill climbing, etc). Even simple headwinds could increase my cruising power usage to 2KW easy (it's already at least 900-1000w to cruise at 20MPH on the flats with no wind, on SB Cruiser).

While 20MPH might be possible (at least with 1000w) on the flats, going up any kind of slope at all would slow me down enough to make it more dangerous than usual with the traffic passing me already up to twice as fast as I'd be going at 20MPH--even if it only slowed me to 15MPH it'd make more drivers angry, even though I'm not in their way (whereas at 20MPH for some reason not many see me as an obstacle). If it slowed me to 10MPH I'd probably get hit or some other road-rage action, based on things that used to happen before I added motors to my cargo-haulers.

The only place I can ride most of the time is on the street (sidewalks would be impossible even if I were on a normal-shaped bike due to other traffic on them, as well as safety considerations for driveways/etc), and whether there is a bike lane or not is irrelevant at the intersections, becuase the lane will end somewhere before the intersection (sometimes a long way from it, sometimes just before a right-turn lane starts, etc). So if I can't keep a reasonable speed (20MPH) to not piss off traffic around me that's going 30-40MPH (I try to avoid roads with higher limits than that), I'd be safer hobbling around on my cane pushing a wheelbarrow or something (to carry my cargo) on the sidewalks for hours to go a mile or two.

Sure, there's workarounds...but just not having a power limit (and keeping the speed limit) fixes the whole thing (for me).
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 05 2018 11:25pm

I believe that is a misinterpretation of the class1 definition which states that the "motor assist" must cut out at 20 mph. And says nothing about any maximum allowable overall speed. Or maybe you don't have a class 1 law. just an ebike law. Are throttles legal in AZ?

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