E-bike restricted trail access and hate

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 07 2018 9:36pm

The whole idea of class 1 ebikes is that they are still just like bikes. Just easier. So every ride/ commute/ delivery, doesn't have to turn into a hammerfest if you are just a normal (not an athlete) person. So no license or registration required.

If you want an electric motorcycle, other companies sell those. And then you can get a plate for it.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 07 2018 9:51pm

By the way, the cop could have used a more commonly representative model for a class 1 ebike to show us. More something like these:
.
https://www.haibike.com/en-US/US/bikes/ ... ll-mtn-6-0
.
https://www.haibike.com/en-US/US/bikes/ ... 3840242848
.
.
Image
.
.
Image
.
.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Feb 07 2018 10:09pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 07 2018 9:36pm
The whole idea of class 1 ebikes is that they are still just like bikes. Just easier. So every ride/ commute/ delivery, doesn't have to turn into a hammerfest if you are just a normal (not an athlete) person. So no license or registration required.

If you want an electric motorcycle, other companies sell those. And then you can get a plate for it.
Except that really isn't really the case. They aren't just easier. They are faster. That's the point. The only real questions are how fast is fast enough and how fast is too fast?

Most people will ride a bike at about 10-12 mph. That's part of the reason why few people are willing to commute more than a two or three miles on a bicycle. So a 20 mph e-bike is actually quite a bit different than a typical bicycle. Many people can and do go much faster, and it is legal. But it is atypical.

If I could sum up my position in one thought it would be to suggest that we simply impose a 25 mph speed limit (residential traffic speed limit) on e-bikes and forget all the other regulations and classes.

Most people will only go about 20 mph anyway. Others can go faster if they wish. And the more daring folks can probably push it to 30 mph before most cops will care. These are not typical bicycle speeds, but they are commonly allowed bicycle speeds. Once past 30 mph, the energies involved make you far more like a motorcycle than a bicycle.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 07 2018 10:24pm

There is a catch 22 a larger then 500w ebike needs to be insured but they wont let you insure it. Locking ebikers out of the Moped or Motorcycle license act.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 07 2018 10:29pm

Well unfortunately the open debate period ended a few years ago in Europe when they set the standard. The manufacturers are all now firmly entrenched with class 1. Which is 16 mph in Europe. There is no need for the law enforcement to have to try to catch anyone riding 40 mph on their 3,000 Watt hub monster because all of the legal bikes police themselves according to the class certification.
I've ridden the Specialized ebikes and am very good with the 20 mph cut off since that is what it will take to make ANY ebike legal in the state of New York. Ebikes are legal in Utah but are still banned from the trails in Moab. The best way to make ebikes legal as bikes nationwide in the US is to simply adopt class 1 as it is.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Feb 08 2018 12:04am

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 07 2018 10:29pm
Well unfortunately the open debate period ended a few years ago in Europe when they set the standard.
Hehe... In ES thread More E-bikes found in NON-ebike media:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=57933

So far Search found 22 matches: speed pedelec

:wink:
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 08 2018 1:54am

I never knew this until now but Manitoba ( a province in Canada) has ebike laws that make sense

Manitoba

Legislation in Manitoba for electric bikes is a bit different than the federal government’s. In that province electric bikes can also be classified as scooters, mopeds or mobility vehicles depending on the power of the engine used and its top speed. If the engine on the electric bike does not exceed 50 km/hr, the rider is not required to have a motorcycle licence or any specific training. However, the operator is required to be 16 years of age and be enrolled in some stage of the Class 5 driver’s licence graduated licensing process. (Class 5 is the most common form of license and allows the holder to drive a normal vehicle.)
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by craneplaneguy » Feb 08 2018 9:51am

A new development in my home state: http://www.thestate.com/news/business/t ... 91724.html

My district state representative lives down the road from me a few miles, and I have done crane work at his ranch. One of our state senators is building a new home across the valley, and I did crane work for him last month, plus I used to land my ultralight in his dad's farm fields. Both these guys are fit and outdoorsy types. At some point, I suppose I should call them up to give them some input on the subject. More importantly, I could offer to show them what a real live ebike is, and how much fun they are to ride, and turn them loose on one of mine.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Feb 08 2018 12:45pm

^^ Image

:mrgreen:
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 08 2018 1:07pm

Laws for Idaho where ebikes are considered mopeds and require a license.
.
https://peopleforbikes.org/wp-content/u ... ressed.pdf
.
And apparently Federal BLM lands consider ebikes motorized vehicles so they can't legally ride on multiuse trails until we get this changed to accept class 1 ebikes as bicycles.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Feb 08 2018 1:45pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 08 2018 1:07pm
Laws for Idaho where ebikes are considered mopeds and require a license.
.
https://peopleforbikes.org/wp-content/u ... ressed.pdf
.
And apparently Federal BLM lands consider ebikes motorized vehicles so they can't legally ride on multiuse trails until we get this changed to accept class 1 ebikes as bicycles.
In theory, "help is on the way"...:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1356483
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Papa   1 kW

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Idaho

Post by Papa » Feb 09 2018 12:02am

FYI... This is Rep king's second attempt at unnecessary ebike legislation here in Idaho - and her last Legislative session (retiring). The bill is HB 508, and embraces a host of uglies. Give thanks to the flurry of new ebike dealers now littering the Treasure Valley with their Asian junk. They whinned worse than 2 yeàr-olds, falsely claiming "no rules" ultimately discouraging many sales.

In compliance to the whinners, granny king butchered her way through the Idaho Statutes. The following is just a random sampling;....

1. Mopeds can NO longer have pedals 49-114 (9)(a)
2. A person shall not tamper with or modify an electric-assisted.bicycle so as to change the motor-powered speed capability or motor engagement (between pedal-assist and throttle-assist types of engagement) of an electric-assisted bicycle, unless he appropriately replaces the label indicating the classification required in this section. 49-727 (1)
3. A person violating the provisions of this section shall be guility of a misdemeanor. 49-727 (4)
4. An electric-assisted bicycle shall comply with the equipment and manufacturing requirements for bicycles adopted by the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission (16 CFR 1512) 49-728

While this is just a proposal and therefor, carries NO legal weight... YET,.... it's a chilling reminder of the self-centered greed currently occupying our State Capitol.
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Re: Idaho

Post by LockH » Feb 09 2018 2:03am

Papa wrote:
Feb 09 2018 12:02am
Give thanks to the flurry of new ebike dealers now littering the Treasure Valley with their Asian junk.
No kidding. Here in Ontario, Canada LOTS of "Chineesy-quality" "ebikes" showing up:
https://www.kijiji.ca/b-ontario/ebike/k0l9004

Watt may be like the ignorant selling to the uninformed. :wink:

[Sigh]
Last edited by LockH on Feb 09 2018 10:07am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Idaho

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 09 2018 6:32am

Papa wrote:
Feb 09 2018 12:02am
FYI... This is Rep king's second attempt at unnecessary ebike legislation here in Idaho - and her last Legislative session (retiring). The bill is HB 508, and embraces a host of uglies. Give thanks to the flurry of new ebike dealers now littering the Treasure Valley with their Asian junk. They whinned worse than 2 yeàr-olds, falsely claiming "no rules" ultimately discouraging many sales.

In compliance to the whinners, granny king butchered her way through the Idaho Statutes. The following is just a random sampling;....

1. Mopeds can NO longer have pedals 49-114 (9)(a)
2. A person shall not tamper with or modify an electric-assisted.bicycle so as to change the motor-powered speed capability or motor engagement (between pedal-assist and throttle-assist types of engagement) of an electric-assisted bicycle, unless he appropriately replaces the label indicating the classification required in this section. 49-727 (1)
3. A person violating the provisions of this section shall be guility of a misdemeanor. 49-727 (4)
4. An electric-assisted bicycle shall comply with the equipment and manufacturing requirements for bicycles adopted by the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission (16 CFR 1512) 49-728

While this is just a proposal and therefor, carries NO legal weight... YET,.... it's a chilling reminder of the self-centered greed currently occupying our State Capitol.
Mopeds DO have pedals. But cheap electric scooters with 5hp motors are not bicycles or mopeds if that is what she was getting at. 2,3,and 4 are no big deal.
.
Here is the Federal 49-728 which has been around for 15 years. Just talks about reflectors and the like.
.
https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/101561/bicyclerule.pdf
.

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Re: Idaho

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 09 2018 11:59am

Papa wrote:
Feb 09 2018 12:02am
FYI... This is Rep king's second attempt at unnecessary ebike legislation here in Idaho - and her last Legislative session (retiring). The bill is HB 508, and embraces a host of uglies. Give thanks to the flurry of new ebike dealers now littering the Treasure Valley with their Asian junk. They whinned worse than 2 yeàr-olds, falsely claiming "no rules" ultimately discouraging many sales.

In compliance to the whinners, granny king butchered her way through the Idaho Statutes. The following is just a random sampling;....

1. Mopeds can NO longer have pedals 49-114 (9)(a)
2. A person shall not tamper with or modify an electric-assisted.bicycle so as to change the motor-powered speed capability or motor engagement (between pedal-assist and throttle-assist types of engagement) of an electric-assisted bicycle, unless he appropriately replaces the label indicating the classification required in this section. 49-727 (1)
3. A person violating the provisions of this section shall be guility of a misdemeanor. 49-727 (4)
4. An electric-assisted bicycle shall comply with the equipment and manufacturing requirements for bicycles adopted by the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission (16 CFR 1512) 49-728

While this is just a proposal and therefor, carries NO legal weight... YET,.... it's a chilling reminder of the self-centered greed currently occupying our State Capitol.
This seems entirely reasonable: what's the big problem? Sur-Ron type electric MXers can't have pedals so they cannot poach Class1 trails. You can change your ebike, but you have to change the Class label if you do. And if you don't you can be held accountable. Again what's the problem?

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Re: Idaho

Post by Papa » Feb 09 2018 2:21pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 09 2018 6:32am
Mopeds DO have pedals.
No shit Sherlock. And that's clearly stated in the CURRENT moped definition (IC 49-114). But if you take the time to read HB508, you'll discover that the word "pedals" has been eliminated from IC 49-114 in Rep King's proposal.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 09 2018 2:23pm

None of that is anything to get worked up about. Sherlock.

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Re: Idaho

Post by Papa » Feb 09 2018 2:50pm

WoodlandHills wrote:
Feb 09 2018 11:59am
This seems entirely reasonable:
Spoken like a genuine Californian. :evil:
WoodlandHills wrote:
Feb 09 2018 11:59am
what's the big problem?
Perhaps you should pose that question to Rep King.
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Re: Idaho

Post by WoodlandHills » Feb 10 2018 11:13am

Papa wrote:
Feb 09 2018 2:50pm
WoodlandHills wrote:
Feb 09 2018 11:59am
This seems entirely reasonable:
Spoken like a genuine Californian. :evil:
WoodlandHills wrote:
Feb 09 2018 11:59am
what's the big problem?
Perhaps you should pose that question to Rep King.
This make no sense at all. What does my home state have to do with what we are talking about? Unless you were making some sort of clumsy insult, in which case it just indicates the weakness of any argument you might have.

And why would I ask your obscure politician about anything either? YOU are the one who brought the whole thing up in the first place in your silly little rant......

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Re: Idaho

Post by craneplaneguy » Feb 11 2018 12:12am

Papa wrote:
Feb 09 2018 12:02am
FYI... This is Rep king's second attempt at unnecessary ebike legislation here in Idaho - and her last Legislative session (retiring). The bill is HB 508, and embraces a host of uglies. Give thanks to the flurry of new ebike dealers now littering the Treasure Valley with their Asian junk. They whinned worse than 2 yeàr-olds, falsely claiming "no rules" ultimately discouraging many sales.

In compliance to the whinners, granny king butchered her way through the Idaho Statutes. The following is just a random sampling;....

1. Mopeds can NO longer have pedals 49-114 (9)(a)
2. A person shall not tamper with or modify an electric-assisted.bicycle so as to change the motor-powered speed capability or motor engagement (between pedal-assist and throttle-assist types of engagement) of an electric-assisted bicycle, unless he appropriately replaces the label indicating the classification required in this section. 49-727 (1)
3. A person violating the provisions of this section shall be guility of a misdemeanor. 49-727 (4)
4. An electric-assisted bicycle shall comply with the equipment and manufacturing requirements for bicycles adopted by the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission (16 CFR 1512) 49-728

While this is just a proposal and therefor, carries NO legal weight... YET,.... it's a chilling reminder of the self-centered greed currently occupying our State Capitol.

Interesting.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by 12-C » Feb 11 2018 12:22am

Gotta love it....

everyone trying to impose their opinion of how the world should turn...

It's not good enough for one to have their own opinion and live with it, they need to have everyone else living by their opinion too....

And the politician is born. :roll:

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Feb 11 2018 12:28am

^^ Hehe... Recognizing that the "average" voter ain't too "bright". (Sorta like folks that own a license to operate heavy equipment in pubic aka the "car", etc...)

Can't succeed at business? No problem! (There's always politics...) :wink: :wink:
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viewtopic.php?f=15&t=60564

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Re: Idaho

Post by LockH » Feb 11 2018 12:44am

Papa wrote:
Feb 09 2018 12:02am
FYI... This is Rep king's second attempt at unnecessary ebike legislation here in Idaho - and her last Legislative session (retiring).
In compliance to the whinners, granny king butchered her way through the Idaho Statutes. The following is just a random sampling;....
Hehe... In this thread at least, the words "king" and "granny" appear synonymous. :lol:

https://legislature.idaho.gov/legislato ... 2017/id32/
Born May 8, 1946, in Ogden, UT; 1964 graduate of Grand Junction High School in Grand Junction, Colorado; B.S. in microbiology from Colorado State University, Art Center College of Design-Commercial Photography; Methodist; Registered Medical Technologist; commercial photographer; Soroptomist International; Vista Neighborhood Association.
Lots of knowledge re 21st-Century urban transportation... :lol:
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Papa » Feb 11 2018 2:44am

Overheard at a thriving 'fornia ebike importer employee meeting...

"OK.., listen-up people.. here's the plan...
Boise is a booming college town, ripe w/ignorants and eager plastic. Big bucks to be made there, so no screw-ups"

"We've already secured a prime location within cycling distance of Boise's high traffic MUP. However, there's a problematic glitch. It seems Idaho's Statutes are vague regarding ebike regs."

"So here's what we need to do: "

"One. Find a rag reporter who's cycle-savy.. and unload the hardship embellishments... You know.. crap like loss of sales 'cause we're unable to answer their stupid questions about where to legally ride their newly purchased ebikes... ect, ect. The public exposure is twofold. One, .. It tells the locals were here and open for business. And second,.. It hints at problematic laws, in hopes to garnish their sympathy for change. Be best if we hit the reporter numerous times over,.. say,.. once every couple of months... You know.. Keeps it fresh in their minds."

"Two. ... Which one of you is politically savvy? Howabout you Mike? You know the ropes
Seek-out a Legislative Representative. Preferably one who's totally ignorant of ebikes,.. then unload the sympathetic BS. Once you got their undivided attention,,. give'em a copy of the 'fornia regs. Piece,a cake"

"Always keep in mind,... that it's vitality important that they adopt our suggested regs, 'cause the regs reflect the ONLY bikes we can legally sell here in the States. If they leave the regs loose, we lose sales to custom builders.". Got it?" …...
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 11 2018 7:38am

There is no looseness with the regs in New York state. ALL ebikes are expressly illegal. And they are being ticketed and confiscated. I'm hoping the NY version of the California regs (which is based on the e-bike law of the entire Euro zone) which is now in commitee will get passed by Summer.

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