E-bike restricted trail access and hate

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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sendler2112
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E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 06, 2018 11:09 am

I was looking for a review on the new Motobecane HAL eboost since I am not that familiar with the Shimano mid-drive and they are a decent introductory price of $3,500 at bikes direct. A search led me to MTBR and of course the comments immediately went to
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"Sweet Moped! Remember that it is not a bicycle and be sure not to ride it on trails designated for MTB."
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http://reviews.mtbr.com/2018-motobecane ... o-launched
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http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/mot ... -bikes.htm
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Chalo
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Chalo » Jan 06, 2018 5:46 pm

Most US states have a defined limitation within which an e-bike can be considered a bicycle. Most of them also permit localities to prohibit e-bikes from paths and trails that are accessible to bicycles, if they choose.

If you know and abide by the rules where you want to ride, it doesn't really matter what anybody else thinks about it. Don't ride like a jerk, and hopefully nobody will push to have e-bikes banned where you ride.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by AWD » Jan 06, 2018 10:13 pm

I might add as a long time mountain biker that what they call Class 1 ebikes, basically the EU conforming ones, are about as harmless on trails as any bicycle. I feel bad for those that are hung up on that setting though as a throttle can be a great tool for an e bike. I use it to get going, even on steep hills, and as soon as the torque sensing pedaling action kicks in I let off and don't use it until I need to take off again. I feel sorry for the people that shun this theory.

As far as where you can ride it is best to make sure it is legal no matter what. Or if you must poach do it with respect to the trail and other trail users :twisted: I rode for 3 1/2 hrs on a mtb trail system near a major metropolitan area today and only saw one other mtb'r. It's not like the trails are packed to the gills.

And those guys on empty beer are just as nasty as they usually get when anything new comes along in the mtb world and in a few years it will die down. In the meantime it is their loss that they are missing out on all the fun!

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Jan 07, 2018 2:09 am

I can confirm the guys in our local club are very worked up about the issue, even if you had a rubber band wound up in your crankset for propulsion they'd consider you public enemy #1. I ride pedal bikes on the trail systems so they haven't copped an attitude on me.
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MadRhino
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by MadRhino » Jan 07, 2018 9:33 am

My problem is different. The trails got very crowded when the city started to improve facilities and promote the mountain for tourists.

Now I ride the mountain very early in the morning, before the dog walkers, joggers, and rent-a-bike tourists start invading the trails.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by craneplaneguy » Jan 07, 2018 12:28 pm

Anytime I run into (figuratively) more then 1 hiker or other biker an hour, I consider it crowded and though I might ride there again, the more remote the place, the better for me. The more remote, when and if you do run into someone, they are unfailingly friendly, as opposed to the crowded town trails where it can be a little chill. 99.9% of the other trail users I meet have no idea I'm on an ebike, and could care less. I'm riding "normal", and our interaction is brief "hi, how's it going, beautiful day eh?"

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dogman dan
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by dogman dan » Jan 08, 2018 11:14 am

Aren't all e bikes still illegal in NY state? Everywhere but on private property.

Or did Don finally get the California type law passed there?

But local attitudes do rule, I've been illegal on paved and dirt bike trails here in NM for 10 years. Since I'm not riding like a jackass, nobody cares.

I do keep the motorcycle with pedals off the national monument mtb trails, but nobody calls my lower power e bike a motorcycle, and tells me to get off the trails. Its not exactly class 1, but close to it, and and it definitely does less trail damage with me on it than the hot racers do on the descents. Those guys still outclimb me too, btw.

There seems to be a growing consensus that California class 1 bikes doen't ruin trails. Hopefully they will be allowed everywhere eventually, depending of course on local attidudes. Don't hold your breath waiting for moab.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 08, 2018 11:27 am

The group from the local Specialized dealer rides Class 1 mid-drive mountain bikes in several different trail areas around Syracuse and Ithaca every Wednesday and has yet to be confronted in three years where it has so far remained don't ask, don't tell. NYC seems to be the front line legal battle ground to get the law changed to adopt the federal standard for Class 1 and 2 pedelecs and mid-drives where you hear of bike confiscations. As if that makes any sense. Replace a car with an ebike is the ideal solution for civilization going forward.

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dogman dan
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by dogman dan » Jan 09, 2018 8:47 am

Many places let people who ride nice take lower power e bikes anywhere they want. In my town, I could attract a cop if ran stop signs at 40 mph, got hit, and was laying there bleeding. Otherwise, they got other issues to deal with. Even traffic cops need to concentrate on heavier and much deadlier vehicles.

Things will change on the local single tracks, if funding appears to actually patrol the new national monument. For now though, nothing out there but us riders. But if I take my 3000w mtb out there and start rutting up the trails in the national monument, I'll get some blowback for sure.

But I got about 12 miles of bootleg trail I built near my house, that I do what I want on. :twisted: The property is owned by a mega real estate developer that croaked. Nothing going to get built there now for my lifetime. Its all stuck in courts.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by fechter » Jan 09, 2018 9:11 am

The bike the OP is asking about looks like it has a nice suspension. The specs for the motor:
The motor puts out a maximum of 250W of power and a peak of 70Nm of torque,
250W is certainly not going to tear up the trails, and would be considered pretty weak by my standards. 750W is allowed here in California.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 09, 2018 9:44 am

fechter wrote:
Jan 09, 2018 9:11 am
The bike the OP is asking about looks like it has a nice suspension. The specs for the motor:
The motor puts out a maximum (sustained) of 250W of power and a peak of 70Nm of torque (and max speed of 20 mph/ 32kph),
This is a standard Class 1 ebike and matches the specs that they all have which makes it legal in most states and pretty much all through Europe.
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Of course being a mid drive, 70Nm through the gears is enough to make it hard to keep the front wheel of even a heavy fat bike on the ground during steep climbs.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by izeman » Jan 09, 2018 9:56 am

fechter wrote:
Jan 09, 2018 9:11 am
The bike the OP is asking about looks like it has a nice suspension. The specs for the motor:
The motor puts out a maximum of 250W of power and a peak of 70Nm of torque,
250W is certainly not going to tear up the trails, and would be considered pretty weak by my standards. 750W is allowed here in California.
don't get confused over 250W and 750W. they are basically the same. EU laws talk about 250W sustained power. max peak power can be much higher, going up to 800W. this is not measured. during normal use the power of EU legal bikes varies a lot, and still they are "legal".

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by MadRhino » Jan 09, 2018 10:28 am

Once you know your trails and the habits of the users, you can ride them at the power and speed that you want.

If you need to ride at crowded times with other riders, ride with them at their pace and pass them only when they are stopped or slowing down. Trail behaviour is more effective than legal tags. I prefer riding the streets around the mountain if I need to cross at cyclists busy hours.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by fechter » Jan 09, 2018 1:56 pm

What might be something to consider is getting ebikers to volunteer to maintain and improve the trails. Some quality time with shovels and rakes might leave a good impression. Carrying heavy tools to the work site is a lot easier with some electric assist.

Around my house, there are plenty of fire roads for me to motor around on and not so many arrogant lycra types. If I go on the single track trails, there are a lot more of them to run into. So far, I have not gotten a single negative comment, but I ride pretty slow. I've even been passed by a human powered bike on a steep uphill (that surprised me). Guy had legs the size of tree trunks.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by 2old » Jan 09, 2018 4:58 pm

Major hate on the local forum in Orange County (CA), and some of the creeps have even bragged about accosting e-MTB's on trails. However, no problem if you know where to ride and/or ride responsibly. I've met numerous MTB riders who expressed interest in e-bikes after we discussed the attributes of them.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 09, 2018 5:21 pm

Shouldn't have to sneak around anywhere in CA. Class 1 bikes are trail legal.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by 2old » Jan 09, 2018 7:10 pm

Try to tell that to the superintendent of parks who banned them in all county parks. State parks have their own regulations; some allow, some don't.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LeftieBiker » Jan 10, 2018 1:39 am

Aren't all e bikes still illegal in NY state? Everywhere but on private property.

Or did Don finally get the California type law passed there?
There are two E-Bike laws pending (perpetually, it seems) here, and in the meantime there is a sort of unspoken rule that most police seem to observe: E-bikes are considered banned where a local ordinance bans them, and are ignored everyplace else, as long as the rider isn't doing anything stupid. I still shut my motor off if police are close. I haven't tried a bike trail.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by craneplaneguy » Jan 10, 2018 9:21 am

I thought this was amusing, but have no idea if it was an ebike or not, or if he hated them, it's just an odd story.

https://nypost.com/2018/01/05/man-break ... bike-cops/

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by rider95 » Jan 11, 2018 10:26 am

I have spent the last few months on the MTBR forms arguing with the e haters My e bike has changed my life and opened so many doors for me , So I now travel around riding all the top rated trails I have even built my GF a e bike too she loves riding it . When the e haters found out or realized that I was riding the local Mt bike trails by my house they threw a fit !! they went on the local MT bike clubs web page and trashed me . This MT bike park is on public land that was donated for a MT bike park by my company that I am retired from I have been riding there since the 80s the local riders and mostly just a few MT Biking Gods who thought they owned the land had a fit when they finely noticed I was on a e bike and tried to shut me out of using a public park . I ride with my handicap placard displayed plainly on my MT bike but the E haters don't care using a public park as there own race track , I went around the local club and went to the parks Department superintended and was surprised by her response explaining I am 60yr old handicap rider who uses a e bike to enjoy the same trails as a reg MT bike . In short I was able to get any park in the city not just this one but any city park is now opened to e bikes for handicap ppl ! To be fair to the local MT bike club The president was all on board with me and so was most of the club ther is always the MT biking Gods who own the fast strav time and feel threated by e bikes for reasons all ther own , I ride most times with my GOPRO for my protection E bikes can and do share the trail with any other users very nicely I travel around and every trail I ride I prove the E haters wrong .

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 11, 2018 11:16 am

Very good for you. Thanks for sharing and spreading the word.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by 12-C » Jan 12, 2018 12:17 am

The biggest myth is that motorized vehicles destroy trail conditions. It's not true. It's trail conditions that are not suitable for riding on that lead to destroyed trails, and that is as simple as wet conditions.

When things are wet pooled water will naturally cause soft spots and as much as coasting your pedle bike though will cause a rut to develop.

I ride bike only trails and have never seen a e bike around. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only one.

Without fail after moist or rainy weather the people who like to ride in that (pedal MTB) tend to leave the trails destroyed.

Also I have contact with people who own land that is developed for motocross and enduro riding. They agree with these statements. They have lots of upkeep with the trails/tracks especially when people want to ride "early" in the spring or during wet conditions....

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LeftieBiker » Jan 12, 2018 3:23 am

I'm also legally handicapped and have a placard. I haven't tried displaying it and riding a public trail. There is a nice trail about 4 miles from me; I have a 20AH Ping pack so I have at least a 30 mile range when fully charged. Maybe next Summer...

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by dogman dan » Jan 12, 2018 8:05 am

Kind of sucks you have to have the placard though. But good for you for getting your access restored.

In my case, I have an illness many say doesn't exist, cant get a placard for my handicap. One plus of the ebike, is I can go ride the national monument trails when no others will. Meaning later in the day, when its about to be hot as hell. Don't run into anybody then. The morning run is when the MTB gods ride.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 12, 2018 9:00 am

dogman dan wrote:
Jan 12, 2018 8:05 am
I have an illness many say doesn't exist, cant get a placard for my handicap.
Same here. Frustrating there has been no scientific progress for chronic Lyme or myalgias in 15 years.

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