E-bike restricted trail access and hate

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Apr 06 2018 8:41am

NYC Mayor eases back on city e-bike bans and confiscation. Accepts Class 1 e-bikes as legal bicycles.
.
http://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor ... d9eaf8be98
.
Hopefully the State will pass their long held up bill doing the same this session.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by fechter » Apr 06 2018 7:42pm

Big step in the right direction.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by flat tire » Apr 06 2018 7:45pm

Big step? More like someone tripping and falling. Class 1 just gives you the power of a rather healthy human rider who tops out at a speed way too slow to safely and conveniently ride on the street or anywhere else really. Class 3 isn't even sufficient for safe street riding except in quiet or especially congested areas.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Apr 06 2018 8:10pm

Electric motorcycles like Zero and Alta are already legal but require a license and registration and cannot be ridden on bicycle trails.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by flat tire » Apr 06 2018 8:32pm

Zero and Alta are light years away from a 60lb trail bike with a few KW. There is no comparison whatsoever. Also, experienced trail riders know that since trails are composed mostly of tight turns, the higher top speed and acceleration of the ebike can't even be used. Soil erosion? Please. It's not until you get a rather heavy and unusually powerful ebike that such a thing becomes a problem.

But on the street you can use the power, so you and your 60lb bike can safely mingle with traffic instead of being subject to careless and oblivious drivers blowing past you.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Apr 06 2018 8:42pm

I agree that there must be a new flexible regitsration process available for 40+ mph class ebikes with a light package just as there is for 50cc scooters.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by flat tire » Apr 06 2018 10:09pm

There doesn't need to be registration because even when ebike adoption reaches its peak very few people proportionally will be regularly commuting on them. Bikes are unobtrusive, non polluting when operated and mostly only a danger to the driver if that. Leave them be.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by fechter » Apr 06 2018 11:18pm

flat tire wrote:
Apr 06 2018 7:45pm
Big step? More like someone tripping and falling. Class 1 just gives you the power of a rather healthy human rider who tops out at a speed way too slow to safely and conveniently ride on the street or anywhere else really. Class 3 isn't even sufficient for safe street riding except in quiet or especially congested areas.
I tend to agree but don't think we'll ever get the laws relaxed to that point. Class 3 is up to 28mph. If that's not fast enough, you should really be riding a moped class and wear a motorcycle helmet. In California, the moped class is up to 30mph and 4bhp (3kW). Anything faster than that is legally a motorcycle.

My point was New York was particularly oppressive to ebikes and having any class legal is better than instant confiscation and $500 fines. Get your foot in the door first.

I still fail to understand the reasoning why class 2 is so evil compared to class 1. Same speed, same power level. Just one forces you to move your pedals even if the effort is near zero.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Apr 06 2018 11:43pm

fechter wrote:
Apr 06 2018 11:18pm

I still fail to understand the reasoning why class 2 is so evil compared to class 1. Same speed, same power level. Just one forces you to move your pedals even if the effort is near zero.
I think the three classes are burdensome nonsense that serve masters other than sane e-bike law. IMO, all you need is one class, e-bike. Top speed with motor power is limited to 25 mph. Allowed power should be very liberal (maybe up to even 3 kw) to allow for cargo, pedicabs, trikes, etc. The key is that the e-bike is operated at speeds similar to a bicycle. Beyond that you are a moped or motorcycle and must have a license and insurance. Class closed.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Chalo » Apr 07 2018 12:28am

wturber wrote:
Apr 06 2018 11:43pm
fechter wrote:
Apr 06 2018 11:18pm

I still fail to understand the reasoning why class 2 is so evil compared to class 1. Same speed, same power level. Just one forces you to move your pedals even if the effort is near zero.
I think the three classes are burdensome nonsense that serve masters other than sane e-bike law. IMO, all you need is one class, e-bike. Top speed with motor power is limited to 25 mph. Allowed power should be very liberal (maybe up to even 3 kw) to allow for cargo, pedicabs, trikes, etc. The key is that the e-bike is operated at speeds similar to a bicycle. Beyond that you are a moped or motorcycle and must have a license and insurance. Class closed.
This is true, and practical, and easier to enforce than finer subdivisions. I could not object to any such simplified legal classification for us.

But there is a public relations win when you pedal. It's an easy, low commitment measure to help keep the peace. And it's all we have, really, to help other road users distinguish us from mopeds and low displacement scooters.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Apr 07 2018 1:57am

Chalo wrote:
Apr 07 2018 12:28am
<snip>
But there is a public relations win when you pedal. It's an easy, low commitment measure to help keep the peace. And it's all we have, really, to help other road users distinguish us from mopeds and low displacement scooters.
I agree. And frankly, I don't feel right not pedaling for any significant length of time. No because of any obligation. But just because I am riding a bicycle ... and that's what you do on a bicycle...

But it is sad that we must "keep the peace" with folks in heavy automobiles, trains, buses etc. who somehow think we should pedal while they don't have to?!? And while it is probably politically smart for e-bikers to at least faux pedal to pacify these odd desires, I don't see any sensible (non-political) reason to mandate that an e-biker must pedal. Heck - if governments are willing to turn a Segway rider into a pedestrian as a legal entity, (12.5 mph, three times walking speed and 1500 watts!!!) why not do the same for a non-pedaling e-biker at 25 mph (only two times typical biking speeds and within typical human maximum bicycle speeds)?
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Apr 07 2018 6:39am

This debate has already played out in major bicycling countries in Europe where class 1 is the only legal e-bike and is saddled with a 25kph limit for assist. California pushed forward with a 20 mph limit. Many states like Florida are embracing class 3 which gives 28 mph. This is fast enough for a bicycle with no license or insurance. NYC is very population dense and is having a (small and overblown) problem with e-bike delivery riders zipping past traffic too fast on crowded sidewalks. Adoption of class 1 will end the confiscation and fines. Ebikes and e-kickscooters are the future of urban personal transportation and delivery as population densities in big cities continue to rise. In 30 years we will pass peak oil availability and the price of transportation and all goods will skyrocket 5X. A majority of urban dwellers will be financially forced out of any remaining personal cars.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Chalo » Apr 07 2018 10:05am

wturber wrote:
Apr 07 2018 1:57am
But it is sad that we must "keep the peace" with folks in heavy automobiles, trains, buses etc. who somehow think we should pedal while they don't have to?!?
We're not even at the point where all stinking car drivers can agree that bicycles have a right to use the road-- even though in fact bicyclists are the only ones with a nearly unconditional right to use the road. We have generations of well-financed indoctrination in unethical behavior to overcome. The most pressing conversation is the one about which roads and areas will be off limits to cars, but we can't even have it yet.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by craneplaneguy » Apr 07 2018 10:16am

What irritates me about the whole thing, is the assumption that just because I CAN go 30 mph I WILL go 30 mph, all the time, dog walkers and babies in strollers be damned!

I like to think that when the way is clear, and I'm in a hurry, hauling ass is not a problem. Like last summer, in Butte Montana, dawn on a Sunday morning, and riding the city streets back down to the airport 8 miles away. With no traffic, and no need to conserve the juice, and in a hurry to get airborne to beat the mid after noon winds on landing back home, I had my longest high speed ride to date. Low to high 30's, in a 35 to 45 mph zoned
area, pedaling the entire way, FWIW. The day before, on the paved bike path up around the old mining district, I rode at ....normal bike speeds. It's like driving up to a 4 way stop intersection on a deserted country road with clear sight lines, am I going to come to a full stop? Hell no. I better stay out of NYC.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Apr 07 2018 12:24pm

Chalo wrote:
Apr 07 2018 10:05am
wturber wrote:
Apr 07 2018 1:57am
But it is sad that we must "keep the peace" with folks in heavy automobiles, trains, buses etc. who somehow think we should pedal while they don't have to?!?
We're not even at the point where all stinking car drivers can agree that bicycles have a right to use the road-- even though in fact bicyclists are the only ones with a nearly unconditional right to use the road. We have generations of well-financed indoctrination in unethical behavior to overcome. The most pressing conversation is the one about which roads and areas will be off limits to cars, but we can't even have it yet.
All it takes is one look at the comment section of any news source when they run an article concerning an auto-pedestrian accident resulting in a fatality. The comments by motorists claiming bicycles "have no right to be on roadways" "they never obey traffic laws" "they need to be licensed and pay insurance like any other vehicle" "they pay no road tax therefore have no right to be on the road" and even "my front bumper will move one out of the way no problem" outnumber the comments supporting bicycle usage ten to one. The anti-bicycle segment of society is very vocal and adamant it is their god given right to operate a two ton weapon free from the annoyance of 2 wheeled pests in their way.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by WoodlandHills » Apr 07 2018 2:40pm

Well, you do have to admit that bicyclists DON'T obey traffic laws. That's just a fact of life on any road in America: bicyclists never stop at stop signs and only stop at lights if they have to, they very rarely give hand signals, ride on sidewalks when it pleases them, ride in crosswalks, and ditto for going the wrong way on one way streets. When in groups they are even worse and the larger the group the more flagrant the behavior. Just look out the window on any sunny spring weekend day and you will see what I mean.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by flat tire » Apr 07 2018 3:49pm

WoodlandHills wrote:
Apr 07 2018 2:40pm
Well, you do have to admit that bicyclists DON'T obey traffic laws.
I'm not sure what your point is, because here in America neither does anyone on the road, usually with considerably more to go wrong due to much heavier and more powerful vehicles. Also, traffic laws assume that you are basically a retarded child so there's a reason they're widely disrespected.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by markz » Apr 07 2018 6:10pm

I havent heard much hate

Just snide remarks on the pathways from one couple. Around here theres like asphalt pathways that act as sidewalks and short stretches that are concrete sidewalk - this is on the divided boulevard. In the winter theres not much anyone can do because the snow piles up on one side of the pathway/sidewalk and theres a house fence on the other. Buddy was like "Dont you have a horn on that thing" thats right he said "horn" and "that thing" I just smiled as they went single file, then I footed it past them very slowly and smiled again, then two feet in front of them, I wide open throttled it and they heard that electrical sound as they whined.

Other then that, no not much of anything that I am aware of.

Lots of looks.

I ride in a 40km long park along the river, I use about 8km of it. Gravel double wide pathways, paved double wide pathways, red crushed stone double wide pathways, single tracks.

A few times I've been givin it a bit of throttle and accidentally come up on a provincial park ranger around the bend. He'd have something to say if he realized I was on an ebike, but the city fuzz they dont give a F.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Apr 07 2018 6:47pm

^^ Hehe... [Knock Knock] We need to move your house. The Trans Mountain pipeline's coming right through here. Sorry...
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by billvon » Apr 08 2018 12:48am

wturber wrote:
Apr 07 2018 1:57am
But it is sad that we must "keep the peace" with folks in heavy automobiles, trains, buses etc. who somehow think we should pedal while they don't have to?
I don't think anyone says "you have to pedal." Motorcyclists don't, and are 100% legal.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Apr 08 2018 1:55am

WoodlandHills wrote:
Apr 07 2018 2:40pm
they very rarely give hand signals,
Even if they did, many other road users (and pedestrians, and even other cyclists, and law enforcement) have no idea what hand signals mean anyway. :( That's the biggest reason I started putting turn signals and brake lights on my bikes, before I ever got into motorizing them. Pretty much everybody knows what the lights mean, even if they don't use them themselves.


I agree with the rest of what you said about many cyclists, though--I've actually been hit from behind on CrazyBike2 by a rider that assumed I'd just go right thru the 4-way stop, either because he was probably going to, or because he wasn't paying attention to traffic or road in front of him. :/

However, the rest of road users are just as bad or worse, and much more dangerous to everyone on *and off* the road in the process, becuase *their* vehicles are large enough to easily kill and destroy anyone and anything smaller that they hit.

flat tire wrote:
Apr 07 2018 3:49pm
Also, traffic laws assume that you are basically a retarded child
They're probably written that way because that's often the way people act (drivers or otherwise). :(

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Apr 08 2018 4:52am

sendler2112 wrote:
Jan 06 2018 11:09am
I was looking for a review on the new Motobecane HAL eboost since I am not that familiar with the Shimano mid-drive and they are a decent introductory price of $3,500 at bikes direct. A search led me to MTBR and of course the comments immediately went to
.
"Sweet Moped! Remember that it is not a bicycle and be sure not to ride it on trails designated for MTB."
Hehe... `Been following the newz lately? As e-biking grows, U.S. cities consider easing rules on where the machines may be used:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1370889

:wink:
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Apr 08 2018 10:19am

For my safety I add a finger point to every hand signal to make sure everyone gets it :)
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Apr 08 2018 10:50am

craneplaneguy wrote:
Apr 07 2018 10:16am
What irritates me about the whole thing, is the assumption that just because I CAN go 30 mph I WILL go 30 mph, all the time, dog walkers and babies in strollers be damned!
Right. Most cars can go well over 75 mph which is the maximum speed limit in most states. Some can nearly triple that. I don't know of any power restrictions for automobiles. Only speed and some limited behavior restrictions (spinning tires and the like.)

Our history with motor vehicles teaches us that "reasonable and prudent" is a bit vague and difficult to enforce uniformly. Nonetheless, it is a sensible way for individuals to approach riding.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Apr 08 2018 10:55am

billvon wrote:
Apr 08 2018 12:48am
wturber wrote:
Apr 07 2018 1:57am
But it is sad that we must "keep the peace" with folks in heavy automobiles, trains, buses etc. who somehow think we should pedal while they don't have to?
I don't think anyone says "you have to pedal." Motorcyclists don't, and are 100% legal.
If you want to go faster than 20 mph, class three requires pedal operation. That is what I was referencing. Only one of the three e-bike classes that are currently being actively promoted in the U.S. allow operation without pedaling.
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