E-bike restricted trail access and hate

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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wturber   100 kW

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Apr 08 2018 11:07am

flat tire wrote:
Apr 07 2018 3:49pm
WoodlandHills wrote:
Apr 07 2018 2:40pm
Well, you do have to admit that bicyclists DON'T obey traffic laws.
I'm not sure what your point is, because here in America neither does anyone on the road, usually with considerably more to go wrong due to much heavier and more powerful vehicles. Also, traffic laws assume that you are basically a retarded child so there's a reason they're widely disrespected.
My observation is that cyclists are generally less observant of basic traffic control rules than are motorists. Of course, the damage that they could potentially cause is generally much less also. They are mostly risking their own safety. I think that's partly what drives their behavior.

The other part is that the roads are generally not designed to accommodate cyclists well. Traffic signal sensors don't pick up bicycle well. It is no surprise that cyclists get impatient sitting at never-changing red lights.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 08 2018 12:10pm

Which is why I always ride my bicycle over to the Pedestrian Signal Button at the intersection and use it .
Sometimes when riding my Motorcycle I have to put the side stand down , get off it and walk over and press the Pedestrian Signal Button to get the light to turn.
However this does not work with left turn lanes .
wturber wrote:
Apr 08 2018 11:07am

The other part is that the roads are generally not designed to accommodate cyclists well. Traffic signal sensors don't pick up bicycle well. It is no surprise that cyclists get impatient sitting at never-changing red lights.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by billvon » Apr 08 2018 4:09pm

wturber wrote:
Apr 08 2018 10:55am
If you want to go faster than 20 mph, class three requires pedal operation.
Right; that's the definition of class 3. I was just commenting on the idea that all non-car-drivers have to pedal.
The other part is that the roads are generally not designed to accommodate cyclists well. Traffic signal sensors don't pick up bicycle well. It is no surprise that cyclists get impatient sitting at never-changing red lights.
Here in San Diego they are pretty good with bicycle-compatible sensors; about 2/3 of the sensored lights have a sensor that works with bikes. (And if not, there's a law that says you can go through the red light if there's no traffic and the light isn't responding.)
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Chalo » Apr 08 2018 6:47pm

wturber wrote:
Apr 08 2018 11:07am
My observation is that cyclists are generally less observant of basic traffic control rules than are motorists. Of course, the damage that they could potentially cause is generally much less also. They are mostly risking their own safety. I think that's partly what drives their behavior.
We have most traffic control rules because murder vehicles are proven so dangerous and awful. Without them we'd never have gotten most traffic laws to begin with. With any luck, we'll get more laws that progressively shut them out of our inhabitable spaces.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by flat tire » Apr 08 2018 8:00pm

Chalo wrote:
Apr 08 2018 6:47pm
With any luck, we'll get more laws that progressively shut them out of our inhabitable spaces.
I was about to post "make Austin even shittier" cuz I love cars but with your traffic that might not be a bad idea.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Apr 08 2018 8:49pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Apr 08 2018 12:10pm
Which is why I always ride my bicycle over to the Pedestrian Signal Button at the intersection and use it .
Sometimes when riding my Motorcycle I have to put the side stand down , get off it and walk over and press the Pedestrian Signal Button to get the light to turn.
However this does not work with left turn lanes .
wturber wrote:
Apr 08 2018 11:07am

The other part is that the roads are generally not designed to accommodate cyclists well. Traffic signal sensors don't pick up bicycle well. It is no surprise that cyclists get impatient sitting at never-changing red lights.
I really like using the new style pedestrian crossing intersections, the ones with the huge flashing lights on both side of the road that light up the second you push the button. The police periodically run sting operations with plants crossing the intersection back and forth while the hidden patrol car writes hefty citations on auto drivers who don't come to an immediate stop. The kicker is the police invite the media to film what they're doing and it gets publicity on TV and printed news, really gets the word out about how it gets real expensive real quickly not stopping promptly and yielding to cyclists and people on foot. I gotta admit it's entertaining seeing a whole bunch of cars and trucks on a busy street hit the brakes hard so you can cross, whole process takes about 10 seconds from hitting the button to making sure traffic is stopped and quickly crossing. Really helps speed up commute times.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Apr 08 2018 9:55pm

Never seen those. Can't imagine them installing them around here; it'd interrupt the cars too much, and we can't have that. :/

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Apr 09 2018 12:22am

amberwolf wrote:
Apr 08 2018 9:55pm
Never seen those. Can't imagine them installing them around here; it'd interrupt the cars too much, and we can't have that. :/
News reports with stuff like this helped get the word out about stopping when drivers see the obnoxiously bright flashing lights:

"A decoy pedestrian crossed the street, and officers stopped drivers that failed to yield.
Officers say failing to yield to a pedestrian would normally come with a $250 fine. In just four hours police stopped 45 cars and 5 pedestrians for failing to use a crosswalk correctly."
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Apr 09 2018 1:56am

Hi Oregon/Hawaii etc... hehe... "the new style pedestrian crossing intersections, the ones with the huge flashing lights"... any links to vids, pics to illustrates these? Sounds interesting... Tks
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Apr 09 2018 5:29am

"Must yeild to pedestrian in cross walk" Has gone way too far in my area. They painted a cross walk across a 4 lane state highway at the edge of town. Now the college students believe hey don't even have to look up from there phone to wait for a safe break in the traffic. They just walk right into the road. Knowing they will be dead right if they get hit. Cops have been seen to set up a sting where one in plain clothes will mill around on the sidewalk, pick out a car, andliterally bolt out right in front of the car. And thn steo back to the gutter. If you don't stop and wave him through, you get a big ticket.
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I was always taught to look both ways for cars. And cross only when it is clear.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Apr 09 2018 8:48am

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Apr 08 2018 12:10pm
Which is why I always ride my bicycle over to the Pedestrian Signal Button at the intersection and use it .
Sometimes when riding my Motorcycle I have to put the side stand down , get off it and walk over and press the Pedestrian Signal Button to get the light to turn.
However this does not work with left turn lanes .
I used to do that for one particular left turn on my commute home. But I think was merely trading one form of law breaking for another. Sometimes laying my bike over the left turn lane sensor did seem to work. But I could never get the sensor to trigger reliably.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by billvon » Apr 09 2018 12:37pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Apr 09 2018 5:29am
"Must yeild to pedestrian in cross walk" Has gone way too far in my area. They painted a cross walk across a 4 lane state highway at the edge of town. Now the college students believe hey don't even have to look up from there phone to wait for a safe break in the traffic. They just walk right into the road. Knowing they will be dead right if they get hit. Cops have been seen to set up a sting where one in plain clothes will mill around on the sidewalk, pick out a car, andliterally bolt out right in front of the car. And thn steo back to the gutter. If you don't stop and wave him through, you get a big ticket.
The first time I biked in Boulder CO I came to an intersection with a road and stopped, waiting for traffic to clear. The cars all stopped. I couldn't figure out why - there was no stop sign or red light. Then one of them waved me through. I was so used to NY and San Diego traffic that I was caught unawares by people who actually stopped for bikes.
Last edited by billvon on Apr 09 2018 3:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by dirttorpedo » Apr 09 2018 3:32pm

I have been riding and driving the Portland area since the early 90s. I don't think one group breaks the law more than the other. I see the same behaviors no matter what mode of transportation I use. I'm pretty sure it's human nature; both our perception of who is breaking laws and our tendency to not follow rules when we think the reward outweighs the risk.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Apr 09 2018 10:33pm

LockH wrote:
Apr 09 2018 1:56am
Hi Oregon/Hawaii etc... hehe... "the new style pedestrian crossing intersections, the ones with the huge flashing lights"... any links to vids, pics to illustrates these? Sounds interesting... Tks
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KBltx0Argag
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Apr 10 2018 1:26am

Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Apr 09 2018 12:22am
News reports with stuff like this helped get the word out about stopping when drivers see the obnoxiously bright flashing lights:

"A decoy pedestrian crossed the street, and officers stopped drivers that failed to yield.
Officers say failing to yield to a pedestrian would normally come with a $250 fine. In just four hours police stopped 45 cars and 5 pedestrians for failing to use a crosswalk correctly."
Around here, there are places I'd expect them to ticket people for using the signals and crosswalk as intended, for "obstructing the flow of traffic". :roll:

But in reality I don't think they'd ever put them in in the first place.


I suspect the only time they even add crosswalks, or traffic signals, is when there's enough fatalities to "justify" the cost.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Apr 10 2018 1:31am

billvon wrote:
Apr 09 2018 12:37pm
The first time I biked in Boulder CO I came to an intersection with a road and stopped, waiting for traffic to clear. The cars all stopped. I couldn't figure out why - there was no stop sign or red light. Then one of them waved me through. I was so used to NY and San Diego traffic that I was caught unawares by people who actually stopped for bikes.
On my SB Cruiser trike, I get waved thru some 4-way stops (and some parking lot intersections, and the like), but it's not because they're being particularly nice, usually, it's because they want to see what the heck I'm riding and watch it go. :)

That sort of thing didn't happen when I rode "normal" bicycles (and more rarely than now on CrazyBike2; SB Cruiser just stands out way more cuz there isn't really anything around here that looks like it).


But sometimes someone will wave me thru and then they'll gun it and go thru themselves just as I'm starting out, like a "fakeout", sometimes blaring their horn. :/ So I dont' really trust anyone waving me thru.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Apr 10 2018 5:12am

Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Apr 09 2018 10:33pm
LockH wrote:
Apr 09 2018 1:56am
Hi Oregon/Hawaii etc... hehe... "the new style pedestrian crossing intersections, the ones with the huge flashing lights"... any links to vids, pics to illustrates these? Sounds interesting... Tks
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KBltx0Argag
Nice. Also seen as quite effective...
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by dustNbone » Apr 10 2018 10:24am

billvon wrote:
Apr 09 2018 12:37pm
The first time I biked in Boulder CO I came to an intersection with a road and stopped, waiting for traffic to clear. The cars all stopped. I couldn't figure out why - there was no stop sign or red light. Then one of them waved me through. I was so used to NY and San Diego traffic that I was caught unawares by people who actually stopped for bikes.
These people kinda piss me off. The rules of the road are just that, rules. Not to be arbitrarily modified out of "courtesy" or whatever for anyone.

I don't feel comfortable proceeding when I don't have the right of way, I don't need any more space to get into traffic than a car does, and it doesn't generally even save me any time.

By the time they stop, and I figure out why the heck this car is randomly stopping in traffic, then still have to make sure no one is going to simply pass them on the shoulder and cream me anyway, we've usually wasted far more of both our time than if they'd just kept moving.

I realize they're trying to be courteous, but they're breaking the law and putting me in a position where I'm liable for anything that goes wrong when I pull in front of them without having proper right of way. I don't want special treatment because I'm on a bicycle, I just want everyone (myself included) to follow the rules that are in place.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Apr 10 2018 10:30am

amberwolf wrote:
Apr 10 2018 1:31am
billvon wrote:
Apr 09 2018 12:37pm
The first time I biked in Boulder CO I came to an intersection with a road and stopped, waiting for traffic to clear. The cars all stopped. I couldn't figure out why - there was no stop sign or red light. Then one of them waved me through. I was so used to NY and San Diego traffic that I was caught unawares by people who actually stopped for bikes.
On my SB Cruiser trike, I get waved thru some 4-way stops (and some parking lot intersections, and the like), but it's not because they're being particularly nice, usually, it's because they want to see what the heck I'm riding and watch it go. :)

That sort of thing didn't happen when I rode "normal" bicycles (and more rarely than now on CrazyBike2; SB Cruiser just stands out way more cuz there isn't really anything around here that looks like it).


But sometimes someone will wave me thru and then they'll gun it and go thru themselves just as I'm starting out, like a "fakeout", sometimes blaring their horn. :/ So I dont' really trust anyone waving me thru.
I suspect you might not get the same curiosity about the trike if you rode it in Asia where pedicabs and utility trikes are common, drivers would lay on the horn "dog bike get out of way".
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Apr 10 2018 11:00am

Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Apr 09 2018 10:33pm
LockH wrote:
Apr 09 2018 1:56am
Hi Oregon/Hawaii etc... hehe... "the new style pedestrian crossing intersections, the ones with the huge flashing lights"... any links to vids, pics to illustrates these? Sounds interesting... Tks
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KBltx0Argag
In the Video it mentions the lights cause a impressive 80% stop rate :?

I get above that now :D
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Apr 10 2018 12:31pm

eCue wrote:
Apr 10 2018 11:00am
Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Apr 09 2018 10:33pm
LockH wrote:
Apr 09 2018 1:56am
Hi Oregon/Hawaii etc... hehe... "the new style pedestrian crossing intersections, the ones with the huge flashing lights"... any links to vids, pics to illustrates these? Sounds interesting... Tks
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KBltx0Argag
In the Video it mentions the lights cause a impressive 80% stop rate :?

I get above that now :D
I do like those intersections with the flashing signals because they facilitate cycling, they give cyclists a place to go where they know they're going to be able to make a quick crossing of busy streets and they promote cycling too, people in cars see them and realize they too could be using them to make good time getting where they want to go. Just about anything to promote cycling is good in my eyes, now if they'd just start building some bike lanes with concrete barriers to actually protect cyclists from distracted drivers I'll be jumping up and down.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Apr 10 2018 1:48pm

I have seen less forceful people standing for minutes at painted crosswalks while cars ignore them , thats not going to happen with the signal crossings
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Apr 10 2018 3:31pm

Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Apr 10 2018 12:31pm
now if they'd just start building some bike lanes with concrete barriers to actually protect cyclists from distracted drivers I'll be jumping up and down.
I wish I could say I think those barriers are a good idea, but they come with a bunch of problems in addition to the "protection" they offer. A few thoughts, that don't cover all the problems, below.

Some of this is based on what I see with construction barriers, which sometimes temporarily separate bike lanes and/or sidewalks and/or other areas from traffic lanes. Some of it is based on certain intersections, like some freeway crossings around here, where they have put protection barriers up so that pedestrians are protected from cars that collide with each other and skid and can otherwise impact/crush pedestrians standing and waiting to cross at a corner. (and to protect pedestrians from drivers taking the corners too sharply and running over those standing at the corner on the sidewalk, but that's a rarer thing than the collisions).

At those intersections, before the barriers were installed, pedestrians used to be easy to see, and drivers would generally slow a bit if one was standing there, and even stop to let them cross. Now, pedestrians are lucky to be able to cross even when they have a walk signal, as the drivers don't slow as much (or at all) and don't look for pedestrians much (if at all) even if they are already outside the barrier and starting to cross.


One problem with barriered lanes is that when you're riding to go somewhere, and you have to get out of the barrier area and into / across lanes of traffic to get to your destination (or to get on a different road), you first have to wait till you get to a gap in it, and if those are poorly placed, then you can end up "suddenly" in traffic (as far as the drivers on the other side of it are concerned). It's not really suddenly, but if the drivers are expecting bikes to now always be on the other side of the barrier, then when you have to ride on "their" side of the barrier, the hostility some drivers already feel would increase at these times (vs the way it was before the barriers were installed and they were already used to sharing the road).

If the gaps in the barriers are not frequent (like say, only at intersections), then a cyclist that needs to get to the other side of the street has to either go much further down than they want, then cross the street, then go back the other way to get where they're going. Or they have to exit the barrier at the previous intersection, and now they're trapped in the traffic lanes until they get to their destination.

This means that for those riders that have to be on the "car" side of them (because they can't get where they're going on the "bike" side), they now have nowhere at all to go when a driver does something that they could otherwise have escaped from--they'll be pinned against the barrier, or have to "escape" into a different traffic lane where some other driver could be surprised by them.

A further issue with having nowhere to go is when a pedestrian just steps right off the curb in front of you, and you might've been able to dodge them if the barrier weren't there. But now your choices are to hit them, or to crash into the barrier, or to attempt to ride up the curb and maybe hit some other pedestrian that hasnt' stepped off the sidewalk.

On most of the streets where traffic is really a problem, there's also lots of driveways. This means there would have to be frequent breaks in the barrier, which is good for the cyclists that need to get to the other side of the street (by changing lanes like any other traffic), but bad for the cyclists that are staying in the protected area. With driveways, and barriers like that, drivers that need out of the driveways are likely to pull out all teh way across the protected lane, blocking it, so that they can "see around" the barrier (even if it is very low, they'll still do it--this is what happens with construction barriers on road-edge repair around here). There are places here where traffic out of driveways is fairly constant, and without the barriers, the drivers stop at the edge of the sidewalk (most of the time) so a cyclist could keep riding past...but probably not able to if the barrier were there.

Also, drivers that are going to enter the driveway will suddenly just turn into it, and probably pay even less attention to the cyclists than they did before, because they're protected by the barrier, right? So all the cyclists have to do is stop, right? Meaning every cyclist will have to stop at every driveway if there's traffic that might turn into the driveway. While that can also be true of unprotected bike lanes, the riders will probably have to watch traffic even more than they did without the barriers, because now the traffic doesn't have to watch for them anymore. (not really true, but it'll be the perception)


So while they might keep some collisions from happening, they could actually cause others that wouldn't have happened without them.


Another problem with such barriers is that there's only so much space on a road, and the barriers themselves take up space too. Since it's unlikely space would be taken from the car lanes, the bike lane will be narrowed by the width of the barrier, at least. Some of the areas around here that are striped as bike lanes are already narrower than the handlebars of a typical bicycle, so on those a barrier that stands above, at, or near the height of handlebars would force the rider over into the gutter area (or into parked cars where the bike lane is trapped between traffic and a parking area, also common around here, and problematic in itself for obvious reasons). When in the gutter area, now the handlebars stick out over the sidewalk, so for areas where pedestrians use these there's risk of collision with them, or of idiots reaching out and pushing cyclists into the barriers, etc. (that particular problem happens even without the barriers, but at least a cyclist has somewhere to go then).

Cyclists will be unable to pass each other, except by either riding on the sidewalk, if there's no pedestrians and its' allowed in that area, or by exiting the barrier into traffic, until they can get back into the protected area however far down the road the next break is, assuming there's no other cyclists there at the time; if there are then the one reentering either has to stop and wait, with cars zipping by, or they ahve to ride to the next break, or the next, and so on. So now all bike traffic will happen at the speed of the slowest rider. Makes commuting impractical at that point.

When the inevitable wrong-way-cyclist comes down the lane, more chaos will ensue, since riders can't just go around each other anymore.

If they're wide enough for the above stuff to not be a problem, then they'll also be wide enough for cars to go down them, and that's going to happen, probably even if bollards are put in place.

In narrow places, many trikes and trailers will be unable to fit, unless the rightside wheel is up on the sidewalk, and that would probably mean riding at a walking pace to avoid either tipping over or falling off wherever the curb height suddenly changes (driveways, etc). (I'm not even talking about stuff like I build--just the commercial pedal-only stuff is too wide to fit inside some bike lanes, and sometimes bollards on paths are too close together to fit thru either).

There's also nowhere to go when the street drains and such are so wide and deep that riding thru them is outright dangerous, or even impossible.

One plus would be that as long as they repair the road before installing the barriers, a lot of the road damage that makes riding at the edge of the road unsafe wouldn't recur (from large vehicles braking and accelerating, causing pavement to migrate into hills and valleys like waves). Unfortunately I don't imagine they'd do the repairs first, and after they isntall the barriers, the machinery to do the repairs couldn't get in there to be able to fix them afterward.

Also, barriered areas collect more trash, debris, and other junk that can cause flats, etc. Streetsweepers cannot get into the barriered areas, so they are never cleaned except by rain/wind during the very infrequent storms. If the areas are made wide enough for sweepers, they're also wide enough for the rest of traffic, and there *will* be drivers that use them as an extra lane, and all the chaos and potential injuries and fatalities that will ensue from that.

Also, very infrequently, the freeway intersection areas get used as dumping grounds for large piles of trashbags and yard waste, completely blocking their use by pedestrians/etc. That doesn't seem to happen in the construction zones, but I expect it would with barriered bike lanes.

Raisedeyebrows   1 kW

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Apr 10 2018 4:05pm

Yes protected lanes need to be implemented with well thought out design. I often ride on stretches of roadway where there are no driveways or other entrances where auto traffic travels at high rates of speed and designated bike lanes are exposed. I see little negatives to arrangements like this in situations like that except the barriers should be higher to physically stop a car or truck from entering the bike lane (hopefully):
Image

Trikes, although obviously useful constitute such a small percentage of users of bike lanes accommodating them will be likely later rather than sooner. I just wish there was a whole lot more infrastructure being built geared towards cycling safely.
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LockH   100 GW

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Apr 11 2018 12:32am

^^ Watt he said... "implemented with well thought out design"... like, hire designers from the Netherlands ("Dutch"). :wink:
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