E-bike restricted trail access and hate

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 25055
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Feb 05, 2018 11:53 pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05, 2018 11:25 pm
I believe that is a misinterpretation of the class1 definition which states that the "motor assist" must cut out at 20 mph. And says nothing about any maximum allowable overall speed. Or maybe you don't have a class 1 law. just an ebike law. Are throttles legal in AZ?
As I said (in other words), some places have a law that defines a cut-off speed for the assist, and some (like here) define a maximum speed at which the bike can be operated *at all*.

There is nothing at all in the law here in AZ about how an ebike must work, only how fast it can go. Specifically, it must be "operated at less than 20MPH", and otherwise it's defined the same as a bicycle. (ICE bikes do have another limit on top of that, the cc size of the engine cylinder)

So yes, throttles or any other form of control of the speed or power is allowable, as that's not defined at present.

There *is* an update to the law that's been held in the House for almost a year now, that would implement 3 classes similar to other places, but limit to only 750w. If they ever pass that, then for safety reasons I'll have to ignore the power limit (perhaps they'll consider all existing ebikes to be grandfathered in). The way the new law is worded, it almost might be able to be construed to only apply to manufactured ebikes, and not to DIY ones. But it might also be construed to thus only *allow* manufactured ones that conform, and disallow all DIY or kit bikes, in that case. There's a thread about the new law (and the old one) if you look at threads with Arizona in the title.

User avatar
eCue
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 488
Joined: Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 05, 2018 11:54 pm

If you dont need a drivers license then many of the fines are not applicable. U turns coasting down hills at joy speed etc
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 25055
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Feb 06, 2018 12:14 am

Depends on how they write the laws.

Here in AZ (because I know there are examples and court cases you can look up, probably info enough at azbikelaw.org to start from) the way LE treats it (when they choose to enforce it) is that if you have a motor or engine on the bike, and you operate the bike over 20MPH, they write you tickets as if you were on a motorcycle, that has no registration, no insurance, and no license to operate it (assuming you don't have a class M, which most won't).

The way this has been reasoned by LE / courts is that the very definition of what a bicycle (with an assist) *is* limits it to less than 20MPH, so if you are riding faster than that you are not riding a bicycle.

The next class up from that requires registration, insurance, and license to operate, so if you don't have them then you get tickets for that (even though it's impossible to register a bicycle here in AZ, and I don't know anywhere that will insure a bicycle with that kind of insurance).

It's "logical" enough. Whether it's "right" or not, I couldn't say. Personally, if I were LE, I'd just write a ticket for exceeding the 20MPH bicycle-assist limit. But that's not what happens, in the cases I've read of so far.

I expect the reason is punitive, to try to get those specific riders off the road completely for whatever reason, since the law isn't enforced 100% (except in Tucson, apparently).

User avatar
Papa
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 408
Joined: May 13, 2008 1:06 am
Location: NW

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Papa » Feb 06, 2018 12:24 am

amberwolf wrote:
Feb 06, 2018 12:14 am
.... if you have a motor or engine on the bike, and you operate the bike over 20MPH, they write you tickets as if you were on a motorcycle, that has no registration, no insurance, and no license to operate it (assuming you don't have a class M, which most won't).
You beat me to it AW. Almost word-for-word. Here in spud country it's currently 30 mph. But the same conditions still apply.
~ Recycle... Ride your bike again ~

User avatar
eCue
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 488
Joined: Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 06, 2018 12:43 am

Canada is at 20 mph / 32 kph as well but they clearly state its the motor that can maintain it over level ground *without* pedal assist. In other words if your a strong pedaler or have a hill enjoy.
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

User avatar
Papa
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 408
Joined: May 13, 2008 1:06 am
Location: NW

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Papa » Feb 06, 2018 1:22 am

eCue wrote:
Feb 06, 2018 12:43 am
Canada is at 20 mph / 32 kph as well but they clearly state its the motor that can maintain it over level ground *without* pedal assist. In other words if your a strong pedaler or have a hill enjoy.
eCue wrote:
Feb 06, 2018 12:43 am
The level ground performance is good it pulls nice from near stop to 38.5knh @ 48v during speed tests so I was down 6 volts from its fresh 54.6v voltage.

40kmh may well be possible at 54.6v ?
Might I suggest carrying a rabbit's foot.
~ Recycle... Ride your bike again ~

User avatar
eCue
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 488
Joined: Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 06, 2018 1:23 am

So in canada you want limit your throttle to 32k and PAS to 60 70k :D
Im not sure on that last one. Our Motors are limited to 500w
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

User avatar
LockH
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 14759
Joined: Jul 09, 2013 11:06 pm
Location: Ummm.. Started out in Victoria BC Canada, then started to move around... Oh oh.

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Feb 06, 2018 1:35 am

Clarification... "Our Motors are limited to 500w" CONTINUOUS... not PEAK. :wink:
ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

Eff. June, 2014 Phoenix Ebike Promotions

(Current ride? High speed lawn chair.)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=57408

Phoenix Ebike Promotions conversion kit (work in progress. More drink holders, etc etc)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 15&t=60564

User avatar
eCue
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 488
Joined: Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 06, 2018 1:47 am

Yup that gives me some room for growth if I break or bore of the 350w , its not much room for growth :lol: sad haha
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

User avatar
eCue
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 488
Joined: Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 06, 2018 2:06 am

My city has a bike lane painted on the side of road it makes for quick travel much faster then walkways and its all for us bikers. Cars respect us in it. Its nice.
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

LeftieBiker
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 322
Joined: Nov 06, 2012 1:33 am
Location: Upstate NY, United States

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LeftieBiker » Feb 06, 2018 2:22 am

eCue wrote:
Feb 06, 2018 2:06 am
My city has a bike lane painted on the side of road it makes for quick travel much faster then walkways and its all for us bikers. Cars respect us in it. Its nice.
You must live in Shangri-La. Or Canada. ;-)

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 25055
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Feb 06, 2018 2:23 am

Around here, the bike lanes are often treated as car parking spots (even though it's illegal unless marked as ok, which unfortunatley lots of areas are). So you can't actually use the bike lanes for more than a few dozen feet at a time in quite a few places.

And the width of the lanes varies a lot, from less than that of a bike's handlebars (sometimes less than a skinny human's hip width) to wider than some cars.

The lanes also sometimes just disappear, sometimes with a sign that indicates it's end and sometimes not. It might resume half a mile or a mile or more away, or it might startup at that same point--one to several streets over (but no signage to tell you that, and no lane to get you there).

They are also used by pedestrians and powerchair/wheelchair users, especially in places where the sidewalks are narrow, or where the cars park on the sidewalks, or where there are no sidewalks (around shopping and business centers, especially). Many of those arent' paying any attention to what's going on around them (any more than some drivers), so you have to do that for them.

Even if you have a lane, though, and it happens to be unobstructed, it doesn't mean the cars passing right next to you at significantly greater speed are going to pay any attention to that thin white line. :(


But yeah, we've got bike lanes too.... ;)

User avatar
eCue
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 488
Joined: Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 06, 2018 3:07 am

This city has extra wide logging truck sized roads , back in the day when the city was being carved up to lots it was big logging area so they scaled the city roads to fit logging trucks and parking. So the 4 lanes roads are actually more like 5 1/2 to 6 lanes and two lane roads have huge shoulders for parking. Its a oddball city.
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

User avatar
eCue
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 488
Joined: Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 06, 2018 3:29 am

Without the bike lanes people were apt to honk at me and im someone who stays far to the right . the nitwits ..I give the finger to anyone who takes offense and honks at me when Im riding on the road. They are not special
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

Raisedeyebrows
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 346
Joined: May 13, 2017 1:39 pm
Location: Oregon/South Point Hawaii USA back and forth

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Feb 06, 2018 12:35 pm

Where there are bike lanes with painted lines on the side of the road those lines offer zero protection from drivers drifting over the line while messing with their phones. Whenever possible I stick to back street routes with hardly any traffic and streets designated as bike routes where auto traffic is prohibited or discouraged. I personally can't wait to see more bike lanes with concrete barriers between caged drivers and bicycles that offer an adequate level of safety for bikes.
Yuba Mundo w/BBSHD
Specialized Hard Rock w/9c clone, statoraid, hubsink
Trek Fuel 90 w/BBSHD
Above all run on 14s4p 52v li-ion
Ecobike folder 36v
Currie Flyer scooter 24v on 24ah of SLA

User avatar
eCue
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 488
Joined: Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 06, 2018 1:17 pm

Aged caged drivers are especially frightening. They often seem surprised to see a bicyclists on the road in my city. They are the ones who scowl strangely when you ride next to them. It seems young people are more amused then disturbed.
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

sendler2112
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 748
Joined: Dec 07, 2012 6:14 am
Location: Syracuse, NY USA

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 06, 2018 1:24 pm

Bikes sharing the road with cars are totally normal and well accepted by both in any areas I have ever ridden in central NY, Austin TX, and Tamps FL for the last 30 years and tens of 1,000's of miles on my road bike before I switched to primarily trail riding.. Nothing unusual about it in any way.

User avatar
wturber
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 629
Joined: Aug 23, 2017 8:52 pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Feb 06, 2018 1:33 pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05, 2018 9:32 pm
wturber wrote:
Feb 05, 2018 7:56 pm
When I was a kid I could ride my Schwinn Typhoon at bursts of up to about 25 mph. As a 30 year old, I could burst to well over 30 mph on flat roads on my modified Dahon (el-cheapo dept. store type) folder. Bikes are routinely allowed to go down hills at speeds well over 30 mph if the riders care to do that.
You may still do any of that if you like on your class 1 ebike. Up to any posted speed limits of course.
You miss my point. If these are easily attainable speeds without a motor, then why not let a motor assist to that level as well? The laws have already essentially said, "We're OK with bikes traveling faster than 20 mph."
Last edited by wturber on Feb 06, 2018 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=90369

User avatar
wturber
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 629
Joined: Aug 23, 2017 8:52 pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Feb 06, 2018 1:36 pm

flat tire wrote:
Feb 05, 2018 9:56 pm
sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05, 2018 9:32 pm
wturber wrote:
Feb 05, 2018 7:56 pm
When I was a kid I could ride my Schwinn Typhoon at bursts of up to about 25 mph. As a 30 year old, I could burst to well over 30 mph on flat roads on my modified Dahon (el-cheapo dept. store type) folder. Bikes are routinely allowed to go down hills at speeds well over 30 mph if the riders care to do that.
You may still do any of that if you like on your class 1 ebike. Up to any posted speed limits of course.
What I inferred from wturber's post is that he thinks class 1 ebikes are unnecessarily slow. Like, the assist cuts out too early. It wouldn't be unreasonable to bump class I up to 30 mph. We have some "underground" human power roadbike rides here locally where the peloton cruises at 30+ on flat ground and exceeds 40 occasionally. The can do that and legally get away with it as a consequence of their own little feet pushing the pedals. Why can't someone with a little assist pull the same? Would it just hurt too many feelings?
Pretty much right. Frankly, I see no need for the three classes. All that is needed are speed limits.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=90369

User avatar
wturber
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 629
Joined: Aug 23, 2017 8:52 pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Feb 06, 2018 1:38 pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 05, 2018 10:25 pm
Class 2 is 28 mph
But no throttle is allowed and they usually tack on some other stuff like requiring a helmet - which is quite absurd on many levels.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=90369

sendler2112
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 748
Joined: Dec 07, 2012 6:14 am
Location: Syracuse, NY USA

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 06, 2018 1:43 pm

Class 1 came from Europe years ago. Fortunately the USA standard increased the assisted speed from 16 in Europe to 20 mph in the US. This is the standard that is already well known and I am happy to have a pathway to legality. Right now where I live all ebikes are expressly illegal and are being fined and confiscated in NYC.

User avatar
eCue
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 488
Joined: Nov 03, 2017 5:14 pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by eCue » Feb 07, 2018 7:29 pm

Here is a Video on the Canadian ebike laws

Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

sendler2112
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 748
Joined: Dec 07, 2012 6:14 am
Location: Syracuse, NY USA

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 07, 2018 7:43 pm

So pretty much the same as the USA class 1 rules for ebikes. 500W, 32kph limit if the electric motor but you may pedal or go down hill much faster. This make it still a bike and not a motor vehicle (unless you are drunk).
.
The two differences are the minimum 16 years age of operator AND passenger. (Many USA ebikes are sold as cargo bikes and feature a child seat on the rack.) And a required bike helmet.

User avatar
LockH
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 14759
Joined: Jul 09, 2013 11:06 pm
Location: Ummm.. Started out in Victoria BC Canada, then started to move around... Oh oh.

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Feb 07, 2018 7:51 pm

eCue wrote:
Feb 07, 2018 7:29 pm
Here is a Video on the Canadian ebike laws
Hehe... Using an "ebike" with pedals watt function about as well as the human appendix.

:roll: :lol:

Hint: Local "cyclists" hate `em. (Keep a rag handy for wiping the spit off...)
ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

Eff. June, 2014 Phoenix Ebike Promotions

(Current ride? High speed lawn chair.)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=57408

Phoenix Ebike Promotions conversion kit (work in progress. More drink holders, etc etc)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 15&t=60564

User avatar
wturber
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 629
Joined: Aug 23, 2017 8:52 pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Feb 07, 2018 9:08 pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Feb 07, 2018 7:43 pm
So pretty much the same as the USA class 1 rules for ebikes. 500W, 32kph limit if the electric motor but you may pedal or go down hill much faster. This make it still a bike and not a motor vehicle (unless you are drunk).
.
The two differences are the minimum 16 years age of operator AND passenger. (Many USA ebikes are sold as cargo bikes and feature a child seat on the rack.) And a required bike helmet.
Why is it somehow considered OK to go downhill at 30, 35, or 40 mph, but not to go the same speeds on flat ground or uphill? ARe those safe speeds (in general and from a legislative standpoint) or not? If so, allow them on flat ground. If not, don't allow them on downhills.

From a safety standpoint, there's not a lot to support this asymmetry in speed limits. Its probably safer going fast on flat ground or uphill since your braking is diminished going downhill. And frankly, steep downhill routes are close to being an attractive nuisance for young, male bicyclists.

About the only thing I can think of to argue for allowing relatively high speeds downhill from a safety standpoint is that cars might be a tiny bit more able to predict your speed. But that's only on steep hills. Motorists are generally unaware aware of the grades below 5% that are a big help in making it easier for bicycles to go fast.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=90369

Post Reply