E-bike restricted trail access and hate

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
craneplaneguy   10 kW

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by craneplaneguy » Jan 12 2018 10:38am

12-C wrote:
Jan 12 2018 12:17am
The biggest myth is that motorized vehicles destroy trail conditions. It's not true. It's trail conditions that are not suitable for riding on that lead to destroyed trails, and that is as simple as wet conditions.

When things are wet pooled water will naturally cause soft spots and as much as coasting your pedle bike though will cause a rut to develop.

I ride bike only trails and have never seen a e bike around. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only one.

Without fail after moist or rainy weather the people who like to ride in that (pedal MTB) tend to leave the trails destroyed.

Also I have contact with people who own land that is developed for motocross and enduro riding. They agree with these statements. They have lots of upkeep with the trails/tracks especially when people want to ride "early" in the spring or during wet conditions....

That was evident to me the other day when out riding a cross country ski/snow machine track the other day on the efattie. Pretty steep in some areas, steep enough that when I helped out by pedaling I would break traction, using throttle only I wouldn't. It was very hard to pedal smooth enough.

I have yet to use my "excuse" of being a senior citizen/old fart as I have never been challenged for riding where I do. But I have it ready if need be: "anyone over 65 is exempt, and good to go on a e bike, anywhere except wilderness areas." Not true but true enough sounding, and the frigging bottom line is I ain't hurting a damn thing. I got over my MTBR's e hate forum posting some time ago, after getting sucked into the dark hole of trying to make logical comments and bashed over the head with them. Like "coming downhill, I don't cause anymore damage then you do," even that obviously true comment was poo pooed by most. So I checked out on trying to argue with them, they are irrational and not worth my attention, and I thank God I live somewhere where I don't have any issues, most if not all ebike hate was just "an internet thing." It's about all multiple use here, hikers, bikes, horses, whatever, we have so many trails we are not crammed together causing friction, there's always some place else to ride. This post is the first time in months I've wasted any time at all even cogitating over the issue, and will be the last!

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 12 2018 10:46am

It brings a good point. Most commercial e-mountain bikes are going to 2.8-4.0 tires running low pressure. The extra traction and contact patch will tear up the trails less.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Jan 12 2018 1:28pm

I was born in Phoenix in 1959 and noticed a pattern where once people move here it took only a few years before they would start complaining about how fast the place was growing - completely ignoring for the moment that they are part of the same problem/issue.

It seems like some/many mountain bikers (like just about all groups) fall into the same trap. They don't want "extra" or the wrong kind of use on "their" trails. And I'm sure there was a time when hikers and folks on horseback became upset when mountain bikes started taking to the trails and even worse perhaps - blazing new trails through their beloved nature areas. I'd be surprised if many of them didn't feel that the bicycles didn't belong at all. Its just the nature of people in general. Likewise, it is in our nature to eventually adjust.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LeftieBiker » Jan 13 2018 2:18am

In my case, I have an illness many say doesn't exist, cant get a placard for my handicap.
I was in that situation for many years, with CFS/Chronic Myalgia. Then I got diagnosed with an even more serious illness, the symptoms got blamed on that, and Bob's your Uncle, I had a placard! I'd kind of rather have no placard and no pain, though...

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by MadRhino » Jan 13 2018 8:05am

wturber wrote:
Jan 12 2018 1:28pm
...It seems like some/many mountain bikers (like just about all groups) fall into the same trap. They don't want "extra" or the wrong kind of use on "their" trails. And I'm sure there was a time when hikers and folks on horseback became upset when mountain bikes started taking to the trails and even worse perhaps - blazing new trails through their beloved nature areas. I'd be surprised if many of them didn't feel that the bicycles didn't belong at all. Its just the nature of people in general. Likewise, it is in our nature to eventually adjust.
There is a large network of horse trails on my property. I don’t use them much anymore but for some 30 years I did, with wife and kids and guests.

With the growth of nearby villages and tourism, more people started using them, since I never had built any fences. Then we started meeting strangers blaming us for horse riding our own trails. So I had to chase intruders off, put signs on trees and fence the access points.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by dogman dan » Jan 14 2018 8:42am

Nothing worse to walk on, or ride if legal, than horse/mule trail.

They churn it up really bad, and if cut for pack mules, are too steep even for most hikers and backpackers to enjoy much. Most trail in the national forest is this type.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by MadRhino » Jan 14 2018 12:15pm

dogman dan wrote:
Jan 14 2018 8:42am
Nothing worse to walk on, or ride if legal, than horse/mule trail.

They churn it up really bad, and if cut for pack mules, are too steep even for most hikers and backpackers to enjoy much. Most trail in the national forest is this type.
Well, my horse trails are flat, hard packed sandy terrain that you can trot or galop comfortably. There are lots of birds, indigenous fruit trees and blackberries. No wonder why they became popular for the villagers and tourists to hike and bike, especially since there were no warning signs nor gates. The forest trails are separated from the barn and installations by a few acres of field, so I didn’t mind much, not until the number and attitude of strangers forced me to forbid them. Now most of the horses are retired, and the forest is visited only by neighbours and some local hunters.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Jan 14 2018 1:55pm

MadRhino wrote:
Jan 13 2018 8:05am

With the growth of nearby villages and tourism, more people started using them, since I never had built any fences. Then we started meeting strangers blaming us for horse riding our own trails. So I had to chase intruders off, put signs on trees and fence the access points.
Amazing ... but not really. It's actually almost predictable.
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Mt Bike project list e frendly trails

Post by rider95 » Jan 14 2018 2:40pm

I use Mt Bike project a lot when I am looking for places to ride, I will be in Charlotte NC in a few weeks I am looking at riding Lake Norman and MT bike project now has this trail system as EMTB friendly ! That's cool that MT Bike project now starting to list trails as E Bike friendly so E bikes are be coming more accepted .

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by flat tire » Jan 14 2018 7:54pm

I ride at the MTB trails quite often. The only time I have an issue is if I scare pedestrians, and of course they're never really in danger. It's crazy how people pay absolutely no attention and then freak out at the last minute when you're slowly approaching at 15 mph, on the brakes, 30 feet away. Riders on the other hand I have never had an issue with and some of them really like the bike. Just make sure you call out on blind stuff at high speed to avoid a head on.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Jan 27 2018 5:35pm

Class 1 pedal assist e-bikes are not mopeds. Make them legal everywhere. Here is a good video with a Specialized rep explaining how all they really do is level the average rider up closer to what the world class riders can do on a bike. And tear up the trails less because you are running 3.0 (or 4.6) tires at low pressure. https://youtu.be/fBRcdASVMms

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Jan 27 2018 6:35pm

flat tire wrote:
Jan 14 2018 7:54pm
I ride at the MTB trails quite often. The only time I have an issue is if I scare pedestrians, and of course they're never really in danger. It's crazy how people pay absolutely no attention and then freak out at the last minute when you're slowly approaching at 15 mph, on the brakes, 30 feet away. Riders on the other hand I have never had an issue with and some of them really like the bike. Just make sure you call out on blind stuff at high speed to avoid a head on.
You cover 30 feet in less than 1.5 seconds at 15 mph. That's pretty quick for an un-warned unaware pedestrian. OTOH, they probably should hear you coming. I do bird photography and hike multi-use trails in the desert. I hear mountain bikes hundreds of yards before our paths cross - usually long before I ever see them. They aren't exactly stealthy. But pedestrians often walk with headphones on and don't hear stuff. I use a bell and slow down to 10 mph or slower when I see pedestrians.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by craneplaneguy » Jan 27 2018 8:36pm

There is a short section of paved hiker/dog walker/biker trail I ride fairly often, when leaving my crane yard and heading into town. As the alternative is a busy 45 MPH (50+) 4 lane with no shoulder to speak of, I will usually add a 1/4 mile onto to my ride and divert to this trail. It's purposely twisty, though pretty level, so it's easy to come up on others with not much warning. I ride it slow, so have never had any issues with oncomers, but I don't like surprising someone as I pass them. At the same time I kinda hate yelling out "on your left". Since it's smooth asphalt, my bear bell doesn't work, wait a minute....now that I think of it, unlike my other two ebikes, I don't HAVE a bear bell on the 27'5" bike I keep in the crane! Ordering one as soon as I post this, something real innocuous, a polite little tinkle will do, I always have a hard time yelling not loud enough, (trying to be Mr. Nice Guy) or too loud (and making people jerk), I'll let the right bell do the work.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Jan 28 2018 1:32am

Slightly OT, but as far as surprising pedestrians go...:

I ride on the street, usually at the righthand portion of the lane. Sometimes that's a bike lane, more often there isn't one, so I'm just in the regular traffic lane, in the same place the right half of a car would be (only going slower than they would be, at 20MPH max, while cars would be at 25-45MPH, depending on the street).

Most of these areas have sidewalks with intermittent pedestrian traffic on them. The pedestrians are not surprised at cars passing them all day long.

But sometimes, once every few weeks or months, when I pass them on CrazyBike2 or SB Cruiser, one or two will jump (away from the road) / flail / shout / etc., in surprise as I pass. I can sometimes see their shock/surprise in my rearview mirror on that side. (sometimes others with them will be laughing at them for being surprised)

It isn't as if I'm anywhere near them; I"m in the same place the cars would be if I weren't' there. If they aren't surprised by the cars, why are they surprised by me?

They also arent' surprised by regular bicycles actually on the sidewalk that are going at least twice as fast as teh pedestrians, that come up behind and pass them on the sidewalk with no warning, (or suddenly curb-jump off and back on around them).


If I'm riding on an MUT like the canal paths this doesn't happen; even though I'm on the very same path, and slowly catch up to and go around the pedestrians. Some of them are impressed or even a bit surprised by *what* is passing them (since what I build and ride is a tad unusual), but not just the simple act of being passed causing them shock and aghastness.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by amberwolf » Jan 28 2018 1:48am

craneplaneguy wrote:
Jan 27 2018 8:36pm
Since it's smooth asphalt, my bear bell doesn't work, wait a minute....now that I think of it, unlike my other two ebikes, I don't HAVE a bear bell on the 27'5" bike I keep in the crane! Ordering one as soon as I post this, something real innocuous, a polite little tinkle will do, I always have a hard time yelling not loud enough, (trying to be Mr. Nice Guy) or too loud (and making people jerk), I'll let the right bell do the work.
I've just got a regular bike bell on my SB Cruiser right now, but somewhere around here I have some old teletype bells that are quite loud, close to 3" across. They're meant to be sounded by a solenoid, but can be done by a manual springtab like a bike bell. I've tested it out and they work well for alerting self-absorbed pathblockers wearing headphones that someone is approaching--better than a regular bike bell, and not quite as rude as the car horn. ;) Someday I'll run across them again and get at least one built into a mount for the trike so it'll have one.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by wturber » Jan 28 2018 11:53am

craneplaneguy wrote:
Jan 27 2018 8:36pm
Ordering one as soon as I post this, something real innocuous, a polite little tinkle will do, I always have a hard time yelling not loud enough, (trying to be Mr. Nice Guy) or too loud (and making people jerk), I'll let the right bell do the work.
I have a cheap WalMart thumb operated "ching-ching" bell. It works well. But the particular one I have is kind of cheap and sometimes the washers on the ringer will become unattached. Would like to get a higher quality version but don't know which ones are actually best and most durable.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by MadRhino » Jan 28 2018 12:47pm

wturber wrote:
Jan 28 2018 11:53am
... Would like to get a higher quality version but don't know which ones are actually best and most durable.
This type

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Crane-Bi ... mwBanner=1
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Jan 28 2018 1:12pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Jan 12 2018 9:00am
dogman dan wrote:
Jan 12 2018 8:05am
I have an illness many say doesn't exist, cant get a placard for my handicap.
Same here. Frustrating there has been no scientific progress for chronic Lyme or myalgias in 15 years.
Hehe... "Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate"... According to one theory we're ALL "aging"... with luck, if we live long enough about ALL will end up with some sort of "disability"... Press reports from Europe suggest it was "older" folks watt started buying bikes with assist first... So suspect most "haters" are younger folks... :wink:
rider95 wrote:
Jan 11 2018 10:26am
I have spent the last few months on the MTBR forms arguing with the e haters...
Hehe... Perhaps not a "win-win" situation... American Ben Franklin perhaps said it best, where many/most die at 25, but aren't buried `til 65... (Something like that...) Meaning folks go "brain dead" at an early age. Personally, prefer not to argue, but to just quote facts enough to leave them confused about their own reality, so they just go away to "check stuff" on their own. :)
2old wrote:
Jan 09 2018 7:10pm
Try to tell that to the superintendent of parks who banned them in all county parks. State parks have their own regulations; some allow, some don't.
Hehe... Yah... It's watt got me mixed up in this whole "ebike" thing... I was actually living IN a park when I was first banned. (Living in this "City Within a Park" where about 10% of the land is parklands... including areas where houses still exist that the city hasn't already torn down.) Parks management are like "police" watt are free to make up their own ignorant rules, it seems... when it's tiny vehicles watt aren't exhausting burnt fossil fuels as poisonous "greenhouse gas" the parks folks should be first in lines to support. [sigh]
izeman wrote:
Jan 09 2018 9:56am
... don't get confused over 250W and 750W. they are basically the same. EU laws talk about 250W sustained power. max peak power can be much higher, going up to 800W. this is not measured. during normal use the power of EU legal bikes varies a lot, and still they are "legal".
Hehe... Yah... Canadian laws are about limits as "pony-powered" 500 watts, however the reference is to continuous power output and laws don't mention peaks at all... [hehe...]
MadRhino wrote:
Jan 07 2018 9:33am
Now I ride the mountain very early in the morning, before the dog walkers, joggers, and rent-a-bike tourists start invading the trails.
Oh oh... "rent-a-bike tourists"? I'm still trying to get into the "Ebike Industry", and tourists (wallets) are my target market for earning money by renting ebikes in "tourist heavy" neighbourhoods. Have a theory that it may be more profitable to rent over and over "all season long" versus just selling bikes outright? ... and letting folks just try electric assist can be a useful "low cost" tool for getting them to buy their own assisted bike later. (See "marketing"...)

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by E-geezer » Jan 28 2018 1:42pm

amberwolf wrote:
Jan 28 2018 1:48am
craneplaneguy wrote:
Jan 27 2018 8:36pm
Since it's smooth asphalt, my bear bell doesn't work, wait a minute....now that I think of it, unlike my other two ebikes, I don't HAVE a bear bell on the 27'5" bike I keep in the crane! Ordering one as soon as I post this, something real innocuous, a polite little tinkle will do, I always have a hard time yelling not loud enough, (trying to be Mr. Nice Guy) or too loud (and making people jerk), I'll let the right bell do the work.
I've just got a regular bike bell on my SB Cruiser right now, but somewhere around here I have some old teletype bells that are quite loud, close to 3" across. They're meant to be sounded by a solenoid, but can be done by a manual springtab like a bike bell. I've tested it out and they work well for alerting self-absorbed pathblockers wearing headphones that someone is approaching--better than a regular bike bell, and not quite as rude as the car horn. ;) Someday I'll run across them again and get at least one built into a mount for the trike so it'll have one.
I have both types of bells, one of these, which is really great because like a bear bell, you can turn it off when you're not in a place where you'll see other people, but when it's on, you don't have to take your fingers off the bar to ring it, it's brainless.

https://www.mtbbell.com/

And traditional manually rung bells, which are nice when you just want to warn a single person up ahead you're coming. If I only had to choose one though, I'd take the Timberbell, you can see people up ahead parting ways to let you pass without having to do anything.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 02 2018 12:55pm

So I have been calling around to get a take on the experience of my local bike shops in central NY state before I buy and they are telling me that class 1 e-bikes are legal on all multi use trails.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Feb 02 2018 6:09pm

Hehe... CURSE YOU unknown, unnamed bureaucrat in the "San Diego Area" (as first reported in ES Newz back in April, 2011):
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... +1#p390600

Might suspect one of their relatives is/was a lawyer. :cry: (Making more work/"billable hours" for other lawyers...) Class One... Class Two... Class Three... blah blah blah... Class 1.5 anybuddy?

See also the "California Disease":
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 7#p1319317

:wink:
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by sendler2112 » Feb 02 2018 10:12pm

I'm good with class 1 being legal if they will really let me ride witn no hassels in the state parks. And I understand why they have to draw the line somwhere and don't want 40 mph bombers shredding the trails where people are walking. A class 1 ebike is still just a bike that happens to let a below average fitness rider climb with the same power as an elite athelete. Only up to 20 mph. Then you are on your own. And nothing more. And so, it cannot reasonably be excluded from bike trails or city streets or anywhere a bike can go.

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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Feb 02 2018 10:34pm

Hehe... Hang on... Some may have a "problem" with "Class X"-anything?

One "problem" with "Class"-anything is that any "standards" vary from place to place, and over time?

One example. How "Fast Pedelec" electric bikes are selling now in European countries... Worse, any "regulations" and "laws" are written by the ignorant. Folks "running on fear and ignorance".

So. Wanna change the future? ... or just keep "things" as "good enough"... :wink:
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by fechter » Feb 03 2018 1:24am

I'm still trying to figure out why there's a distinction between PAS only and bikes with a throttle (Class 1 vs Class 2). Is this supposed to be a safety thing? To me, the only time it would make a difference is when the bike is parked and some kid comes up and grabs the grip and gives it a twist. When you're riding, it really makes no difference after about 5 minutes of experience. I found the PAS system to be downright dangerous when riding on mountain trails. Motor has a tendency to keep going for 1/2 second after you stop pedaling. This is long enough to send you over the side of a cliff.
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Re: E-bike restricted trail access and hate

Post by LockH » Feb 03 2018 4:48am

^^ Hehe... Suspect many/most "rules"/"regulations"/"laws" to be written by the ignorant for the uninformed. By "experts" that really don't know watt they're talking about. :) Having said this, would prefer zero "rules", etc to start, then to develop same based on actual, verified experiences? Rather than to discourage/impede any real innovations...
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