Has anyone tried a 3x1 shift setup?

Was thinking of doing some barebones ebike builds to sell on craigslist that would reduce my install/setup time and the cost/maintenance to buyers...

My idea is a rear 900w MAC 8T freewheel motor kit with a single speed cog and one of these or something similar: https://paulcomp.com/shop/components/melvin-chain-tensioner/

This way, I don't have to worry about the customer's drivetrain, just dump the rear cassette and keep the two or three chainrings up front for flats/hills/self-power. This also frees up the right side of the handlebars for controls and existing finger-pull brake handles since no shifter levers will interfere with spacing.

From my testing the clutch will be just fine with dead starts at 48V/25A with a milder initial torque bump in software. I think if I did a bulk kit purchase from MAC and use a battery connection I have I could get this down to about $800 per conversion for the customer, and have the install done in less than an hour.

So what do you folks think? Has anyone done it? Pros/Cons?

I have the rear trigger shifter along with a three for the front on the left side... I've found I use the front just as much, as you usually have to double shift with the back gears to keep up with acceleration.

Hmm...good point, cadence with a 14T single would be really fast when the 8T tops out...13T sprocket with a 10T wind it is! Guess I can't get in trouble with johnny law selling anything not road legal either.

Can't you just use a derailleur and lock it into place instead of buying what amounts to a fixed derailleur?

Personally, I'd spend that money on more motor or battery.

How would you go about perfecting the chain line when the derailleur needs tension and H/L screws can't lock to one sprocket? Just push it up as high as possible and use spacers?

If you run a short piece of cable to a fixed place, you can effectively 'lock' the derailleur into the spot you want. I'm sure there's a good number of ways to deal with the cable piece and tension, only limited by your imagination.

On my golden motor bike I use 3x1 but mostly just use 2x1 as it’s all I need. I use a short length of spoke to set the derailleur in its fixed place, nipple on one end and fixing bolt in the other.

For fine tuning my alignment when I run a single with a regular derailleur I cut off the head of a shifter cable with a few inches of cable attached from the trash, and stick that into the barrel adjuster out to the pinch bolt. Then you can still spin the barrel adjuster and fine tune it after clamping it.



The barrel style doesn't work well without grinding, or putting a washer under it, or something...

Voltron said:

For fine tuning my alignment when I run a single with a regular derailleur I cut off the head of a shifter cable with a few inches of cable attached from the trash, and stick that into the barrel adjuster out to the pinch bolt. Then you can still spin the barrel adjuster and fine tune it after clamping it.

heads.jpg

The barrel style doesn't work well without grinding, or putting a washer under it, or something...

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All well and good for your own bike. But I'm not sure that I'd sell a bike to others configured this way. I'd want anything I'm selling to be fairly bullet and idiot proof and or to be configured in a way that would be obvious to any decent mechanic in a decent bike shop.

And for the OP, I wonder how many people will balk because the bike doesn't have a standard set of rear gears. Personally, I like having a granny gear just in case I have to get home and or up a steep hill on my own power.

So if im picturing this correctly, I'd basically cut a shifter cable really short, then crimp cap one end to stay fixed in a cable guide spot at the rear, then just run it to the derailleur and tighten it off at the desired spacing...I like it!

Marin said:

On my golden motor bike I use 3x1 but mostly just use 2x1 as it’s all I need.

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Any issues you've run into in use or from a maintenance standpoint? I think with the torque available on a 10T it should be able to handle just about anything climb wise, so long as it's not in the big ring. I've got a 98' gary fisher hoo koo e koo with a 26-36-48 triple ring I want to try it out on, but you know what they say: experience is learning from your mistakes...wisdom is learning from others mistakes.

It runs fine it's just a fixed derailleur, keeps chain tension, this is a good setup to peddle along with the motor not so much to peddle on it's own, my bike is too heavy to do that for long,

It should't confuse anyone too much,

I think the point was to use the part that may be already on a bike so no need for a fancy new fandangled unit

I think a better approach would be to convert 7 speed beach cruisers. The only mod would be to move the shifter to the left handlebar, upside down, or put on a friction shifter.

Now you have an affordable bike to sell, that looks ok, shifts ok, has a proper chain guard, and does not have wierd mods to it.

Cheap steel is one option, but you should also look at the pedal forward schwinn candis. A cheap version of the townie more or less.

If you are doing custom installs on customers bikes, they WILL want the bike as unchanged as possible. I KNOW this because I talked to E-Bikekit customers for a living for almost 4 years. I can't recall one guy saying, oh by the way, I also want to make my 21 speed bike a 3 speed. Never ever.

stateofstatic said:

My idea is a rear 1000w MAC 8T freewheel motor kit with a single speed cog and one of these or something similar: https://paulcomp.com/shop/components/melvin-chain-tensioner/

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Most dedicated tensioners don't have enough capacity to allow front shifting. (Paul Melvin is an exception, but it has only 20t capacity when even a short road racing derailleur has 29t.)

As others have pointed out, a normal rear derailleur can be locked in place with the limit screws, or with a dummy cable, to do the same job properly at a lower cost.

Chalo said:

As others have pointed out, a normal rear derailleur can be locked in place with the limit screws, or with a dummy cable, to do the same job properly at a lower cost.

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Got it, gonna test the locked derailleur on the gary fisher...ordered a 13T single speed cassette kit last night.

dogman dan said:

I think a better approach would be to convert 7 speed beach cruisers. The only mod would be to move the shifter to the left handlebar, upside down, or put on a friction shifter.

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If I was starting from scratch, that might be one of the options I would look at for casual riders just riding the downtown waterfront in style...in rainy Portland where the metro area is spread out over 30 miles and 1,100ft of possible elevation changes, and a massive number of folks use their bike as their sole transportation (along with the light rail system, myself included), I don't think it's a good fit. Who I am looking to target are existing metro-area commuters who are low-budget but haven't switched to electric because they can't find a quality 3-season package for their money without DIY (most people are afraid..."I might electrocute myself!"), don't want to replace their ride, and don't want to lug 60lbs up hills if they run out of juice.

My thought is: after torture testing the MAC for a year and a half and tearing it down multiple times, I feel like I have a good idea about what works and what is unnecessary in an electric commuter bike around here. I already have a two page list of people interested that have stopped me to ask questions while I'm riding around on mine, so I have a decent survey sample of what they want and are able to spend. You're right...the big hurdle with customers I think will be in convincing them that all they need is their left 3-speed shifter to handle whatever, but I think once they demo it (if I get everything right) they'll understand less is more quickly.

Simple, reliable, powerful, cheap, is what I'm going for (half twist throttle with on/off key and built-in volt meter, 3 speed switch, custom program 6fet infineon, MAC, 11ah LG on downtube, parts teardown for waterproofing). I want to do a starter run of 5 26" rims and 5 700c rims...should put me back about $550 per complete kit after shipping. If demand increases and I can order 30+ setups at a time I should get that down to $450. If I can build a reputation, then I'll think about LLC and getting some legaleze to offer turn-key bikes similar to how juiced started but that would take a while. The good news is Portland is hot (huge influx of transplants here in the past 8yrs, thanks Portlandia!), so congestion is horrific and more and more are biking in an already big bike town.

Thanks for all the suggestions folks...I'd love any more sage advice you have about getting started as well Dan, it's very appreciated!

BTW, on some derailers, the limit screws that arent long enough to lock it in a single gear can be replaced with longer ones that *will* do that.

Some of them won't work with longer screws because the tabs the screws press against arent' in the right place to get it that far, for extreme positions. (or for other reasons). For those, the dummy cable works fine. (sometimes I've just taken a bit of cable and clamped it in place with a nut/bolt thru part of the derailer body itself if it has room for that out of the way; sometimes I've tied it down to the body, tied a knot in it at the adjuster, etc.)

stateofstatic said:

You're right...the big hurdle with customers I think will be in convincing them that all they need is their left 3-speed shifter to handle whatever, but I think once they demo it (if I get everything right) they'll understand less is more quickly.

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FWIW, around here it's flat, so many riders never even learn that they *can* shift gears--they leave it in whatever gear it was in when they got it, and ride it that way forever. Sometimes someone changes their gear accidentally or just messes with their bike on the lockup rack, etc., and then they either just keep riding it in that new gear, or they think the bike is broken and get a new one or try to get it fixed.

But I'd also say that many (might even be most, nowadays) riders around here are probably not riding by choice--it's only becuase they cannot get any other transportation (either cost or for legal reasons) that they are on a bike at all.

You seem to have a good handle on what you want to do and what your bikes will be used for. The best feature you want to have is my favourite, an on/off switch, you don’t want people having to plug and unplug the battery all the time with the big spark and all.

Then waterproofing considering your location.

"So if im picturing this correctly, I'd basically cut a shifter cable really short, then crimp cap one end to stay fixed in a cable guide spot at the rear, then just run it to the derailleur and tighten it off at the desired spacing...I like it!"

You dont need to fix the cable to a cable guide... it will just nestle into the barrel adjuster...




In the second pic Im pushing the derailleur by hand to make the cable more obvious.. I actually like the inline barrel type better, as the pear sort of jams, and isnt as easy to turn the adjuster, but this was lying around.

amberwolf said:

But I'd also say that many (might even be most, nowadays) riders around here are probably not riding by choice--it's only becuase they cannot get any other transportation (either cost or for legal reasons) that they are on a bike at all.

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In Portland, it's plethora of reasons: already a big biking town, pretty low cost of living (despite rising housing costs) allows a lot more lower income citizens to survive with bikes/public transport as only means of locomotion, highest alcohol consumption in the nation (equals more DUIs), skyrocketing traffic congestion in a city never designed to build out infrastructure for high population, health benefits, electric car hype, and so on.

Previously when I engaged with homegrown cyclists about electric even a few years ago their attitude was strongly polarized against it: "Why even bike? It's too heavy to be practical! It's cheating! It's too expensive! It doesn't go far enough! I don't want to be negatively singled out by other riders." I call those the local purists, though now in general they seem to be softening a bit on the idea. Transplant cyclists on the other hand, are far more open: "I don't care as long as it won't break down. I can't spend a grand for a bike unless it replaces my car 99% of the time. You go all the way from Hillsboro to Vancouver??? This seems perfect for my commute! Can you make me one?"

I'm also thinking of targeted areas...out in Hillsboro there is a lot of tech industry (Intel, Nvidia, Amazon, etc.) and the large majority of their workers get housing within 5-10 miles of the building they work at. Seems like this would be an ideal scenario down the road for monthly rental.

Voltron said:

You dont need to fix the cable to a cable guide... it will just nestle into the barrel adjuster...

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Got it, looks super easy and hassle free. Thanks!

Marin said:

You seem to have a good handle on what you want to do and what your bikes will be used for. The best feature you want to have is my favourite, an on/off switch, you don’t want people having to plug and unplug the battery all the time with the big spark and all.

Then waterproofing considering your location.

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Yup, this is the throttle I'd be using:
Has on/off, voltage to know what's left in the tank, and then this 3 speed switch fits perfectly in between the gap below the led display:

Waterproofing involves teardown of the above pieces and double-dunking them in liquid tape...all wire connectors wrapped with self-fusing silicone tape. Infineon is pretty well sealed as is, but I might hot-glue the wire exit. As for the MAC, Boeshield T-9 Aerosol spray all over and everything looks brand new despite 18mo of outside storage and almost 4 rain seasons in constant use. Drip loop the main wire out, and done.

Good info

Yeah, really bet those bike purists will want to lose 18 gears. Especially if it breaks down and they can't use their lowest gear without using a wrench. Friction shifters is the real answer to handlebar clutter.

Good luck. You know your market better than me. Nationally, its not been the real riders that go electric, till their knees give out. Then they want their beloved bike left as intact as possible.

I do agree a steel beach cruiser does lack appeal, which is why I suggested a cheapo imitation of the townie, that is stylish and aluminum.

dogman dan said:

Yeah, really bet those bike purists will want to lose 18 gears. Especially if it breaks down and they can't use their lowest gear without using a wrench. Friction shifters is the real answer to handlebar clutter.

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Totally right, that's why I'm not targeting purists...those are the same type of folks that would never trade a muscle car for a Tesla, because they think it loses the "soul" of it's use, no matter what the advantages.

I feel like ebikes haven't taken off for the same reason VR hasn't: the people that have no qualms about utilizing it just can't justify the cost of something they don't feel is essential to them. You either have a super-cheepo POS that doesn't perform the practical duties you need it to, or you have a capable mode of transportation you can't afford as a secondary or even primary means without a big commitment to something you understand very little. When you look at individual income averages and purchasing power parity here and in Western Europe where ebike sales outpace North American by a factor over 8, the bottom 50% of incomes are grossly different in what kinds of purchasing power they have.

Most firms have tried to cater to the high-end then trickle down, but you need a lot of capital to go that route. Juiced Bikes was an awesome case study for me, as they just went in with an idea of "How can we get the most utility for the lowest cost to the end user?" They're trying to be 70s Honda in a market of over-priced heavy domestics. I want to get close to the same utility in the hands of those with even lesser means by starting with conversions first, then if the demand is there going to turn-key down the road with what I learned along the way.

Have you ever checked out PDX Dan? It's a really cool town (but rainy and hilly), and has the highest percentage of it's workforce commuting by bike at 7.5%...more than SF, Seattle, New York by a whole 3% gap. We could take a ride together sometime and chat!

stateofstatic said:

I feel like ebikes haven't taken off for the same reason VR hasn't: the people that have no qualms about utilizing it just can't justify the cost of something they don't feel is essential to them. You either have a super-cheepo POS that doesn't perform the practical duties you need it to, or you have a capable mode of transportation you can't afford as a secondary or even primary means without a big commitment to something you understand very little.

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I think you underestimate the moral cowardice of (for lack of a better term) the car driving class. It's bottomless.

I've watched for decades as the cycle industry again and again does focus groups and takes all the critiques of cycling to heart, addresses all the complaints and misgivings of non-cyclists-- and then, nothing. Lazy people will give you any excuses that come to mind, but when you fix those things that they used as excuses, they're still lazy. They still won't do it.

You can fix every comfort and ease of use quibble that they have with bicycles, up to and including the fact that you have to pedal them-- but most people are, on the bottom line, too useless to bike. It's not a fixable problem. You must work with the market you have.

Focus groups are interesting...we had them at Netflix a lot, and a lot of times the designer fails to focus on the right things due to bias presumption of behavior.

The social behavior patterns in Portland tend to stand out from the norms, in that doing something "different" or "progressive" than the rest of the world is embraced by a large groupthink, despite their own negative habits. It's one of the reasons why Nissan used Portland as one of their first national test markets for the Leaf in 2011...people here like to try alternatives to the status quo.

There's also for decades been a mentality of "Anything Seattle can do, we can do better" among the gen x/millenial ranges that spurs progressive growth as well. :lol: