Critique my Build/Plan

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Post Reply
java230   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Aug 09 2017 4:23pm

Critique my Build/Plan

Post by java230 » Feb 11 2018 6:23pm

OK I would like some input here! Jumping back into the eBike things after a number of years. Previously had a 250W 24v front hub motor (boring...).

Frame is a Kona Cindercone, old aluminium hardtail. Had Hayes hydro disks, currently a 9 speed. Needs a fork eventually, its just a fixed steel one at the moment.
Range: I would like 20-25 miles.
Speed: 30mph or greater.

I'm going back and fourth between the Mini 2000 or the 3000w cyclones from Luna Cycle. I like the size of the mini, but more power=better? (should I even look at the 7500w?) I would like a zippy ride, but most riding will be 20mph ish I would guess. I have heard the Mini is actually louder too?

Batteries: I am planning on a 16ah 14s pack, using Multistar batteries. 2@6s, one at 4s. Is that going to be enough battery for my desired range?

I have a 10 amp 6s capable charger already, and the cost per AH on the batteries seems hard to beat.

Thoughts?

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 6127
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by markz » Feb 11 2018 7:49pm

Cyclones are noisy

You should seriously consider the Leaf 1500W kit
https://www.leafbike.com/products/diy-b ... -1073.html

16Ah should be good, but you dont mention riding terrain or cargo.

Can your charger do LiPo?
16ah 14s pack, using Multistar batteries. 2@6s, one at 4s

I would like 20-25 miles.
Speed: 30mph or greater.

have a 10 amp 6s capable charger already

java230   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Aug 09 2017 4:23pm

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by java230 » Feb 11 2018 8:07pm

markz wrote:
Feb 11 2018 7:49pm
Cyclones are noisy

You should seriously consider the Leaf 1500W kit
https://www.leafbike.com/products/diy-b ... -1073.html

16Ah should be good, but you dont mention riding terrain or cargo.

Can your charger do LiPo?
16ah 14s pack, using Multistar batteries. 2@6s, one at 4s

I would like 20-25 miles.
Speed: 30mph or greater.

have a 10 amp 6s capable charger already
Im ok with noisy for power..... I was going to try a mid drive instead of a big hub motor. My thoughts were big heavy hub makes it less fun to ride around (heavy wheel, did the front wheel drive, not a huge fan, especially at higher power), vs lighter and a little more efficient mid drive. I am used to motorcycles, I would rather spin the rear wheel. EDIT: I see they have rear wheel kits too, cheap as well.... But I was pretty convinced to go mid.

My route to work has a couple small hills but is mostly flat, but I live in a very hilly area otherwise.

Yes its a lipo charger for my RC stuff.

Ill look into the leaf kits!

User avatar
motomech   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sep 11 2010 12:21am
Location: Tucson Az.

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by motomech » Feb 11 2018 10:13pm

I have no experience w/ mid-drives and although your desired speeds seem high for a hard-tail, I won't comment on your proposed build per se.
But, I do have some experience w/ LiPoly and would strongly recommend that consider bulk charging.
One of my bikes uses Multistar 6S + 6S + 4S for 14S and I bulk charge w/ the Mean Well HLG-320-54A solid state LED power supply. Bulk charging is a much better solution than "breaking the string" to charge w/ an RC balance charger.
Here are some details on how I do it;

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... l#p1342119
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

java230   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Aug 09 2017 4:23pm

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by java230 » Feb 11 2018 10:50pm

motomech wrote:
Feb 11 2018 10:13pm
I have no experience w/ mid-drives and although your desired speeds seem high for a hard-tail, I won't comment on your proposed build per se.
But, I do have some experience w/ LiPoly and would strongly recommend that consider bulk charging.
One of my bikes uses Multistar 6S + 6S + 4S for 14S and I bulk charge w/ the Mean Well HLG-320-54A solid state LED power supply. Bulk charging is a much better solution than "breaking the string" to charge w/ an RC balance charger.
Here are some details on how I do it;

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... l#p1342119
Very helpful info! Thanks!

Jon NCal   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 364
Joined: Jun 15 2015 3:59pm
Location: Mendocino, California

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by Jon NCal » Feb 12 2018 1:11am

6S+6S+4S=16S

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 34366
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by dogman dan » Feb 12 2018 7:23am

Because you want to cruise fast, I'd say a direct drive hub motor would be the most reliable set up. But not 250w again, or front.

Try a cheap 1000w kit, 48v controller. run 14s and see if its fast enough. if not, get a cheap 72v controller. No need for the really heavy motor like the leaf, but it will be a heavy wheel. It won't feel near as bad on the back. Rear shifter will have to change to 7 speed,, but no worries, you'll just leave it in high gear permanently anyway. You might have to change chain too, but if you put a ton of power through skinny 9 speed chain, you might be changing your chain all the time.

I found 18s a fun voltage, fast but not quite so fast it got dangerous for a no suspension bike.

If you wanted to run more like 20-25 mph, and really climb those hills, then the mid drive would be a better choice. ( and at a power level the chain can stand) But believe me, on 18s the hubbie won't bog down that much on the hills.

java230   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Aug 09 2017 4:23pm

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by java230 » Feb 12 2018 10:10am

dogman dan wrote:
Feb 12 2018 7:23am
Because you want to cruise fast, I'd say a direct drive hub motor would be the most reliable set up. But not 250w again, or front.

Try a cheap 1000w kit, 48v controller. run 14s and see if its fast enough. if not, get a cheap 72v controller. No need for the really heavy motor like the leaf, but it will be a heavy wheel. It won't feel near as bad on the back. Rear shifter will have to change to 7 speed,, but no worries, you'll just leave it in high gear permanently anyway. You might have to change chain too, but if you put a ton of power through skinny 9 speed chain, you might be changing your chain all the time.

I found 18s a fun voltage, fast but not quite so fast it got dangerous for a no suspension bike.

If you wanted to run more like 20-25 mph, and really climb those hills, then the mid drive would be a better choice. ( and at a power level the chain can stand) But believe me, on 18s the hubbie won't bog down that much on the hills.
Im surprised to see so many recommendations for the hub motor. In my head, hardtail plus heavy rear wheel means a lot of flats and beat rim, maybe its just not as heavy as I am thinking. Yes I can see they are quieter, simpler and cheaper, but a mid has more efficiency (especially with gearing) and less weight (and its more centered on the bike). I guess I could be swayed, but I am not sure still. I like the idea of the mid much better.

This bike is a hodge podge of parts (it was stolen and stripped at one point.... Seat and frame are the only original parts), I have no issues changing things around, I was thinking 3 speed rear with a thumb friction shifter.

Raisedeyebrows   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 390
Joined: May 13 2017 1:39pm
Location: Oregon/South Point Hawaii USA back and forth

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Feb 12 2018 12:28pm

The cheapo 48v rear hubmotor I got off ebay and installed on an older steel hardtail has been real fun, climbs hills good, pedal some on real steep hills and it helps a lot. Decent suspension forks are a good thing, also put a Thudbuster on I got from a friend, helps ride quality a lot, more fun. Using 52v batteries I already had, the hubmotor hauls ass, gets me where I need to go fast and back up the hill at a reasonable speed. Low maintenance.
Yuba Mundo w/BBSHD
Specialized Hard Rock w/9c clone, statoraid, hubsink
Trek Fuel 90 w/BBSHD
Above all run on 14s4p 52v li-ion
Ecobike folder 36v
Currie Flyer scooter 24v on 24ah of SLA

Every trip made with electric bike is one less car trip, saves money, no toxic fumes, less noise, less impact on roads.

User avatar
motomech   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sep 11 2010 12:21am
Location: Tucson Az.

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by motomech » Feb 12 2018 12:46pm

Jon NCal wrote:
Feb 12 2018 1:11am
6S+6S+4S=16S
oops, I meant 6S + 4S + 4S :oops:
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

java230   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Aug 09 2017 4:23pm

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by java230 » Feb 12 2018 1:33pm

motomech wrote:
Feb 12 2018 12:46pm
Jon NCal wrote:
Feb 12 2018 1:11am
6S+6S+4S=16S
oops, I meant 6S + 4S + 4S :oops:
I did the same thing..... 52v nominal is pretty much Max for any of the stock 48 volt controllers isn't that correct?

User avatar
wturber   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1335
Joined: Aug 23 2017 8:52pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by wturber » Feb 12 2018 4:14pm

java230 wrote:
Feb 12 2018 10:10am

Im surprised to see so many recommendations for the hub motor. In my head, hardtail plus heavy rear wheel means a lot of flats and beat rim, maybe its just not as heavy as I am thinking. Yes I can see they are quieter, simpler and cheaper, but a mid has more efficiency (especially with gearing) and less weight (and its more centered on the bike). I guess I could be swayed, but I am not sure still. I like the idea of the mid much better.
I think the efficiency benefit of a mid-drive setup probably has more to do with flexibility in applying the motor's power more than anything else. And while efficiency and utility gains are real, the question is whether or not they are worth the extra hassle or not.

My only experience with e-bikes is the one DD rear hub bike that I've built. But I've read a lot of other opinions and in-detail descriptions of benefits and trade-offs. I've concluded that the direct drive rear hub is a very good solution for the vast majority of e-bike needs given that you pick the right battery voltages, capacity and controller output needed. The main negatives are overall weight and that it is fairly obvious that you have a motorized wheel.

What you ultimately do depends largely on two things. Budget and how/where you intend to ride the bike.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

java230   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Aug 09 2017 4:23pm

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by java230 » Feb 12 2018 6:40pm

wturber wrote:
Feb 12 2018 4:14pm
java230 wrote:
Feb 12 2018 10:10am

Im surprised to see so many recommendations for the hub motor. In my head, hardtail plus heavy rear wheel means a lot of flats and beat rim, maybe its just not as heavy as I am thinking. Yes I can see they are quieter, simpler and cheaper, but a mid has more efficiency (especially with gearing) and less weight (and its more centered on the bike). I guess I could be swayed, but I am not sure still. I like the idea of the mid much better.
I think the efficiency benefit of a mid-drive setup probably has more to do with flexibility in applying the motor's power more than anything else. And while efficiency and utility gains are real, the question is whether or not they are worth the extra hassle or not.

My only experience with e-bikes is the one DD rear hub bike that I've built. But I've read a lot of other opinions and in-detail descriptions of benefits and trade-offs. I've concluded that the direct drive rear hub is a very good solution for the vast majority of e-bike needs given that you pick the right battery voltages, capacity and controller output needed. The main negatives are overall weight and that it is fairly obvious that you have a motorized wheel.

What you ultimately do depends largely on two things. Budget and how/where you intend to ride the bike.
I can see some light trails, which is part of why I think mid. I really don't want a big heavy wheel.

Now I'm thinking if BBSHD again.... I wanted more watts, but I'm thinking that may be good. It's a more polished 'kit' than the 3000w, but quieter and maybe a but easier on batteries.

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 34366
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by dogman dan » Feb 13 2018 7:52am

IMO, you just want what hubbies do great. And I like things KISS, especially if I want motorcycle like speeds and power. But do bear in mind, I'm not in the mid drive club here. I'm a hub motor guy.

I have no experience with the big luna kit, nor any axe to grind with them. I just find when I get above 1000w, hubmotors are KISS. Some of mine are a decade old, and running just fine, having wore out several controllers along the way.

You are exactly right, you will beat the shit out of rims and tires with a hub motor on a hardtail, especially if you ride 35 mph without a rear shock a lot.

And, you will do the same to the rear wheel of a mid drive, ridden like a madman on the street, over potholes, the occasionally dropped 2x4, speed bumps, tall manhole covers, etc. But with the mid drive running up to 2000w, you'll also be thrashing other parts, like the chain and the freewheels.

NOT saying a mid drive cant be fast or high power, just that Id do it on the left side, with gasser chain.

Drop your speed and power to what bike chain handles fine, and you will do well with a mid drive like the BB. 25 mph cruise is still damn fast, and only takes 800 w or so. Its wattage for 35 mph I'm objecting to putting through bike chain and gears. (1500-2000w)

java230   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Aug 09 2017 4:23pm

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by java230 » Feb 16 2018 10:16pm

Dogman Dan & motomexh, I appreciate your input!

However I ended up with a 3kw cyclone. Paul with SBP had it in my garage already. He's local to me and had it over next day after order! I got a 80v thumb throttle with it as well to give a try between twist and thumb.

I will likely be mounting it inside the triangle!

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 34366
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by dogman dan » Feb 17 2018 11:58am

It will be fun, I won't deny that!

I wasn't talking fun budget, I was talking transportation budget. Fun budget can afford a six pack of 9 speed chains.

java230   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Aug 09 2017 4:23pm

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by java230 » Feb 17 2018 2:07pm

dogman dan wrote:
Feb 17 2018 11:58am
It will be fun, I won't deny that!

I wasn't talking fun budget, I was talking transportation budget. Fun budget can afford a six pack of 9 speed chains.
I have a few kicking around already! I am going to do some looking into running a 3 speed with BMX chain, not sure that's possible even though to make it shift. I have a few cassettes and spacers laying around to play with.

User avatar
Alan B   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7486
Joined: Sep 11 2010 7:43am
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, USA
Contact:

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by Alan B » Feb 17 2018 2:42pm

I was talking to a fellow recently with a factory mid drive (much lower power than the 3000W Cyclone), and he was complaining about it not staying in gear. I asked him if his chain was worn, he said the derailleur spring was keeping it tight so any wear was not important.

Many people don't understand chain wear and mid drives. His chain was worn out by 700 miles, and his chainrings and sprockets were probably also toast. He had zero understanding of what was going on and what he should be doing.

It takes a lot of maintenance to keep a mid drive working properly. They are fun. The 3000W Cyclone (with all its torque) is much worse (wear wise) than the lower powered mid drives like the BBSHD. The mounts are not stiff enough, everything flexes and that causes additional rapid wear as well. The controller is a standard speed controller, and can easily apply excessive torque even though the rider does not intend to. It is difficult to modulate the torque properly with this setup.

A friend of mine has a Cyclone, and he has had several "loss of control" situations due to excessive torque at low speed in a low gear. He had to make special brackets and weld things to keep the setup from flexing badly. It is quite a project to make one work properly. You can ruin a chain or more every day if you aren't careful. Many bike parts are designed for only about 2000W peak output from the cyclist. Motors like the Cyclone can break parts nearly instantly if power is improperly applied. 9 speed chains and sprockets are likely an example of that. Especially alloy sprockets.

Take care.

java230   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Aug 09 2017 4:23pm

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by java230 » Feb 17 2018 5:24pm

Alan B wrote:
Feb 17 2018 2:42pm
I was talking to a fellow recently with a factory mid drive (much lower power than the 3000W Cyclone), and he was complaining about it not staying in gear. I asked him if his chain was worn, he said the derailleur spring was keeping it tight so any wear was not important.

Many people don't understand chain wear and mid drives. His chain was worn out by 700 miles, and his chainrings and sprockets were probably also toast. He had zero understanding of what was going on and what he should be doing.

It takes a lot of maintenance to keep a mid drive working properly. They are fun. The 3000W Cyclone (with all its torque) is much worse (wear wise) than the lower powered mid drives like the BBSHD. The mounts are not stiff enough, everything flexes and that causes additional rapid wear as well. The controller is a standard speed controller, and can easily apply excessive torque even though the rider does not intend to. It is difficult to modulate the torque properly with this setup.

A friend of mine has a Cyclone, and he has had several "loss of control" situations due to excessive torque at low speed in a low gear. He had to make special brackets and weld things to keep the setup from flexing badly. It is quite a project to make one work properly. You can ruin a chain or more every day if you aren't careful. Many bike parts are designed for only about 2000W peak output from the cyclist. Motors like the Cyclone can break parts nearly instantly if power is improperly applied. 9 speed chains and sprockets are likely an example of that. Especially alloy sprockets.

Take care.
Oh I am sure it will go through chains and sprockets, not much you can do about it when your pushing their design limits. I'll be running 52v so about 2kw.

I'm going to be making my own mounts, I hope I can minimize the flexing, it sounds like that is the biggest cause for thrown chains. I plan to use 1/8" alum for the side plates just like the HD versions (straight side anyway) and then putting a cross bar between them that can be U bolted to the down tube.

User avatar
zro-1   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 360
Joined: Jul 31 2012 9:09am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by zro-1 » Feb 17 2018 7:59pm

I have a BBSHD on my clunker of a FS MTB with the 1500W programming from Luna using a 52V battery. It runs through a Shimano 3-speed IGH on 26-inch wheels. In 3rd gear I can easily sustain 32 MPH on flat terrain with no extra tuck. And the BBSHD is dead silent. It's also a much cleaner design than the Cyclones. Unless you want to do 20+ MPH up a hill, I don't think you'd need a 2kW or 3kW Cyclone to get what you want.
~01~

Raisedeyebrows   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 390
Joined: May 13 2017 1:39pm
Location: Oregon/South Point Hawaii USA back and forth

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Feb 17 2018 10:39pm

If I was utilizing a Cyclone motor I would hunt up a decent suspension fork, hitting potholes and unexpected cracks and undulations in the road is pretty brutal with no suspension. You can find them reasonably if you keep your eyes open for a set of forks that's either been rebuilt or serviced regularly and has good life left in them. For example I picked up a nice hardtail from a friend recently with a set of 26" Bomber MX Pro forks that are in good shape, a useable fork that doesn't have a ton of travel but smooths out bumps real well.
Yuba Mundo w/BBSHD
Specialized Hard Rock w/9c clone, statoraid, hubsink
Trek Fuel 90 w/BBSHD
Above all run on 14s4p 52v li-ion
Ecobike folder 36v
Currie Flyer scooter 24v on 24ah of SLA

Every trip made with electric bike is one less car trip, saves money, no toxic fumes, less noise, less impact on roads.

java230   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Aug 09 2017 4:23pm

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by java230 » Feb 18 2018 2:27pm

zro-1 wrote:
Feb 17 2018 7:59pm
I have a BBSHD on my clunker of a FS MTB with the 1500W programming from Luna using a 52V battery. It runs through a Shimano 3-speed IGH on 26-inch wheels. In 3rd gear I can easily sustain 32 MPH on flat terrain with no extra tuck. And the BBSHD is dead silent. It's also a much cleaner design than the Cyclones. Unless you want to do 20+ MPH up a hill, I don't think you'd need a 2kW or 3kW Cyclone to get what you want.
Thanks for your input! Your probably right that a BBSHD would have probably been fine. In the end the budget made me try the cyclone, I hope it's not crazy loud. I was thing about possibly running a frame bag, with the bottom cut out over the motor. That will disguise it pretty well unless frame bag screams ebike anyway.

java230   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Aug 09 2017 4:23pm

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by java230 » Feb 18 2018 2:32pm

Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Feb 17 2018 10:39pm
If I was utilizing a Cyclone motor I would hunt up a decent suspension fork, hitting potholes and unexpected cracks and undulations in the road is pretty brutal with no suspension. You can find them reasonably if you keep your eyes open for a set of forks that's either been rebuilt or serviced regularly and has good life left in them. For example I picked up a nice hardtail from a friend recently with a set of 26" Bomber MX Pro forks that are in good shape, a useable fork that doesn't have a ton of travel but smooths out bumps real well.
Good call, I picked up a old Manitou Sherman fork. 150mm travel, and quite soft.

Raisedeyebrows   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 390
Joined: May 13 2017 1:39pm
Location: Oregon/South Point Hawaii USA back and forth

Re: Critique my Build/Plan

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Feb 18 2018 5:37pm

java230 wrote:
Feb 18 2018 2:32pm
Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Feb 17 2018 10:39pm
If I was utilizing a Cyclone motor I would hunt up a decent suspension fork, hitting potholes and unexpected cracks and undulations in the road is pretty brutal with no suspension. You can find them reasonably if you keep your eyes open for a set of forks that's either been rebuilt or serviced regularly and has good life left in them. For example I picked up a nice hardtail from a friend recently with a set of 26" Bomber MX Pro forks that are in good shape, a useable fork that doesn't have a ton of travel but smooths out bumps real well.
Good call, I picked up a old Manitou Sherman fork. 150mm travel, and quite soft.
Yeah that will make the ride a lot more pleasant, to me bike suspension is like one of the most awesome gifts from the great creator!
Yuba Mundo w/BBSHD
Specialized Hard Rock w/9c clone, statoraid, hubsink
Trek Fuel 90 w/BBSHD
Above all run on 14s4p 52v li-ion
Ecobike folder 36v
Currie Flyer scooter 24v on 24ah of SLA

Every trip made with electric bike is one less car trip, saves money, no toxic fumes, less noise, less impact on roads.

Post Reply