Introduction and proposed project

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wardo
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Introduction and proposed project

Post by wardo » Feb 26, 2018 10:41 am

Hello All,
I hail from Vermont USA and am an avid cyclist, am interested in reducing my carbon footprint, woodworking, etc. We live out in the country, 5 miles away and 1300 feet above the village, so virtually every shopping endeavor requires fossil fuels. We generate our own electricity via PV panels, and I got it in my head that I would like to build an electric assist cargo bike. I've built guitars, kayaks, furniture and a bicycle frame out of laminated (and often steam bent) wood, and think this can be adapted to a front load cargo bike like the Dutch Bakfiets. Ideally the motor would be mid mount, we'll need to travel 30 miles minimum round trip, the total load will likely be in the 350 pound range (bike 75, rider 175, cargo 100), and climb a biggish hill at the very end of every outing on the way home. For speed 25 mph should get the job done. Any guesses on the wattage required? Other than that, I need to do a bunch more reading before I have solid questions to answer, but if you have any thoughts, feel free to chime in. In the meantime, here is a picture of the wooden gravel bike I built:
Image

Thanks,
Wardo

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Feb 26, 2018 11:14 am

Wow your bike is stunning, beautiful design!

Vermont has a healthy cargo bike scene, I'm guessing you're familiar with this org:

http://www.vbikesolutions.org/blognews

The lead mechanic at Burrows Specialized Sports in Brattleboro, forget his name was very helpful to me setting up my cargo bike with a mid-drive, he's done a whole bunch of them and is a great resource.
Yuba Mundo w/BBSHD
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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by ScooterMan101 » Feb 26, 2018 12:57 pm

Wardo,

Great workmanship on that Gravel Bike !

We need more people that make bike frames, while many of us take a regular bike and convert it to electric there are many shortcomings that we wind up with because of that.

For instance very few bike frames cannot accept a large chainring because of not enough clearance at the drive side chainstay.
the most would be a 53 tooth chainring , or just a few more teeth like up to 56 teeth or so for designs like the single pivot Santa Cruz F.S. bikes. Most F.S. MTB's can only accept up to a 48 tooth chainring. Not Good.

This is important for a mid-drive,
As you will find out most all DIY mid-drives have a expensive 1 or 2 stage reduction , by making your own frame you could have a bike that does not need a extra reduction between the motor and the chainring.

Another option, ( And the one I am more and more interested in doing with each passing day on my next conversion ) is a swing arm, Suspended Swingarm on a F.S. bike , that is long enough
to put the motor between the tire and where the swing arm bolts/pivots at the main frame.
In other words the motor does not work with the front crankset/chainrings, it works directly with the rear cassette,
or
on the other side , the non drive side, directly to the rear hub, working with the 6 disc brake bolt holes, ( with a working disc brake there as well )

You will find examples of that here on E.S. , ... LightingRods ( Mike ) has done some great work with that , and I think/hope will be offering a drive like that in the near future.

You are going to want allot of power ( Watts and Amps ) for where you live and the steep and high elevation gain on each of your shopping trips.
* in another post I , and others, can explain how you can safely use and charge high amp output Lipo batteries.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by amberwolf » Feb 26, 2018 2:37 pm

For as much weight as you're wanting to haul, you might consider a trike. I built the SB Cruiser to haul St Bernards and heavy cargo around, and it can also use a trailer but it's meant to carry as much as possible on the trike itself, up to a few hundred pounds plus the rider and trike itself.

But CrazyBIke2 could haul the 100lbs of cargo you're after, so a bike can do it too.

You'll probably need quite a bit of power to climb a steep 1500 foot hill--is that the total elevation change of the hill vs the rest of the road, or is that just the hill top height above sea level?

You'll also need a fair bit of battery, so it's going to weigh more than you're estimating. I have a 40-mile battery that might get 80 miles on a more aerodynamic bike at 20MPH, but at 25MPH would probably be closer to 40-50 miles. It weighs almost 40lbs, and is a light battery for what it does. Since these are on-the-flats mileages, no hills, then it might do half that with the hill you're talking about. I'd guess that your batteyr will probably end up weighing at least 40lbs to do what you're after.

You'll want to check the actual slopes of the hill, mapping them if possible. If you have a tablet or smartphone there are apps that can do that for you (sorry I don't know names). Knowing the slopes you can calculate how much power it will take to haul specific amounts of weight at a specific speed up it.


Which drive system depends on how much maintenance you want to do--the simplest and least maintenance is a direct-drive (DD) hub in the wheel. Personally, I'd use at least two-wheel drive, becuase it not only lessens the load on the motors and makes them perform better, wiht less waste heat, it means if something goes wrong with a motor you can still get up that hill. ;)

Anythng that goes thru the chain will wear all the drivetrain components faster, especially with loads like what yours will see.

Geared hubs in the wheel work too but they're more prone to overheating/damage if not kept in their efficient zone than DD hubs, and they do have some maintenance vs DDs.

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by wardo » Feb 26, 2018 3:03 pm

Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Feb 26, 2018 11:14 am
Wow your bike is stunning, beautiful design!

Vermont has a healthy cargo bike scene, I'm guessing you're familiar with this org:

http://www.vbikesolutions.org/blognews

The lead mechanic at Burrows Specialized Sports in Brattleboro, forget his name was very helpful to me setting up my cargo bike with a mid-drive, he's done a whole bunch of them and is a great resource.
Depending on what year you got your bike set up, it was maybe Joe? I race and ride with West Hill so know there mechanics very well.

Thanks for the link,
Ward

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by wardo » Feb 26, 2018 3:13 pm

The trike is a non-starter due to how narrow and poor the roads I'll be riding are. The hill itself is 1200' of climbing. I'll look at mapping the steepest section and work from there.

I guessed my weight may be off, for the exact reason you pointed out, but really wasn't sure. I figured I'd make my own battery up, but that will only save me money, not weight! I'll rarely haul 100 pounds, but I do carpentry on the side and want to occasionally haul tools and materials.

The dual wheel DD is interesting. I was leaning towards geared simply because I figured it would be good to gear down for climbs. I am guessing there might be an off the shelf solution for coordinating the two motors? Would DD get bogged down excessively?

Thanks for the thoughtful response,
Ward

amberwolf wrote:
Feb 26, 2018 2:37 pm
For as much weight as you're wanting to haul, you might consider a trike. I built the SB Cruiser to haul St Bernards and heavy cargo around, and it can also use a trailer but it's meant to carry as much as possible on the trike itself, up to a few hundred pounds plus the rider and trike itself.

But CrazyBIke2 could haul the 100lbs of cargo you're after, so a bike can do it too.

You'll probably need quite a bit of power to climb a steep 1500 foot hill--is that the total elevation change of the hill vs the rest of the road, or is that just the hill top height above sea level?

You'll also need a fair bit of battery, so it's going to weigh more than you're estimating. I have a 40-mile battery that might get 80 miles on a more aerodynamic bike at 20MPH, but at 25MPH would probably be closer to 40-50 miles. It weighs almost 40lbs, and is a light battery for what it does. Since these are on-the-flats mileages, no hills, then it might do half that with the hill you're talking about. I'd guess that your batteyr will probably end up weighing at least 40lbs to do what you're after.

You'll want to check the actual slopes of the hill, mapping them if possible. If you have a tablet or smartphone there are apps that can do that for you (sorry I don't know names). Knowing the slopes you can calculate how much power it will take to haul specific amounts of weight at a specific speed up it.


Which drive system depends on how much maintenance you want to do--the simplest and least maintenance is a direct-drive (DD) hub in the wheel. Personally, I'd use at least two-wheel drive, becuase it not only lessens the load on the motors and makes them perform better, wiht less waste heat, it means if something goes wrong with a motor you can still get up that hill. ;)

Anythng that goes thru the chain will wear all the drivetrain components faster, especially with loads like what yours will see.

Geared hubs in the wheel work too but they're more prone to overheating/damage if not kept in their efficient zone than DD hubs, and they do have some maintenance vs DDs.

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by wardo » Feb 26, 2018 3:14 pm

Thanks for the info, I'll look at the examples you mentioned.
Ward


ScooterMan101 wrote:
Feb 26, 2018 12:57 pm
Wardo,

Great workmanship on that Gravel Bike !

We need more people that make bike frames, while many of us take a regular bike and convert it to electric there are many shortcomings that we wind up with because of that.

For instance very few bike frames cannot accept a large chainring because of not enough clearance at the drive side chainstay.
the most would be a 53 tooth chainring , or just a few more teeth like up to 56 teeth or so for designs like the single pivot Santa Cruz F.S. bikes. Most F.S. MTB's can only accept up to a 48 tooth chainring. Not Good.

This is important for a mid-drive,
As you will find out most all DIY mid-drives have a expensive 1 or 2 stage reduction , by making your own frame you could have a bike that does not need a extra reduction between the motor and the chainring.

Another option, ( And the one I am more and more interested in doing with each passing day on my next conversion ) is a swing arm, Suspended Swingarm on a F.S. bike , that is long enough
to put the motor between the tire and where the swing arm bolts/pivots at the main frame.
In other words the motor does not work with the front crankset/chainrings, it works directly with the rear cassette,
or
on the other side , the non drive side, directly to the rear hub, working with the 6 disc brake bolt holes, ( with a working disc brake there as well )

You will find examples of that here on E.S. , ... LightingRods ( Mike ) has done some great work with that , and I think/hope will be offering a drive like that in the near future.

You are going to want allot of power ( Watts and Amps ) for where you live and the steep and high elevation gain on each of your shopping trips.
* in another post I , and others, can explain how you can safely use and charge high amp output Lipo batteries.

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Feb 26, 2018 7:41 pm

wardo wrote:
Feb 26, 2018 3:03 pm
Raisedeyebrows wrote:
Feb 26, 2018 11:14 am
Wow your bike is stunning, beautiful design!

Vermont has a healthy cargo bike scene, I'm guessing you're familiar with this org:

http://www.vbikesolutions.org/blognews

The lead mechanic at Burrows Specialized Sports in Brattleboro, forget his name was very helpful to me setting up my cargo bike with a mid-drive, he's done a whole bunch of them and is a great resource.
Depending on what year you got your bike set up, it was maybe Joe? I race and ride with West Hill so know there mechanics very well.

Thanks for the link,
Ward
Yes yes, Joe, very helpful guy, reassured me on some concerns when I was ready to do the mid-drive install, he had done a bunch on the exact same frame. Real nice of him to take time out of his day to answer a call from some random dummy on the other side of the country.
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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by Alan B » Feb 26, 2018 8:01 pm

It is not hard to synchronize dual motors adequately, dual wheel drive DD and geared hubs have been built by many folks. The motors are coupled through the road.

Mid drives are excellent at climbing, the more power you run through the chain the faster it wears out, so you trade lighter weight for increased maintenance. DD motors are heavier but incredibly trouble free.

Changing tires is easier on a mid drive, the heavy hubmotors make tire repair more difficult.

I have both dual motor, large single motor, and mid drive ebikes, the mid drive is like a manual transmission where shifting is required to get the best performance while the dual hubmotors (and big hubmotor) are more powerful and more like an automatic transmission, just twist and go faster...

In either case you need enough power to handle your gradient with your load at your required speed, as well as the power for the aerodynamics. Make sure you have enough.

Life is full of tradeoffs. :)

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by dogman dan » Feb 27, 2018 8:52 am

750 w bafang for the mid drive motor. It will haul that weight easy as pie on any reasonable hill.

A bafang mid drive will handle 400-450 total weight, on a cargo bike of some type. I'm assuming though, that you don't mean a bad ass logging road with grades over 15%.

You will need a lot of battery, enough to likely put you closer to 400 pounds total. This is easy for mid drives if the grade is 10% or less.

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by ScooterMan101 » Feb 27, 2018 10:03 am

If I lived in Phoenix or any other Big City with paved roads and allot of car traffic a big visible trike and trailer is exactly what I would ride on the road with ... for safety and cargo hauling reasons .

From what you now say with the narrow and poor roads you will be riding I would also forget about a Dutch Bakfiet type bike, I would not want to steer that thing down a steep hill or a twisty road/trail.

There is a great solution for hauling for anyone like you who lives up in the Mountains , ... the B.O.B. Ibex trailer .
They were designed exactly for riding on Mountain and Single Track Trails.
And
With your talent you could even build your own, wider and longer, and perhaps even a 20 inch wheel instead of the 16 inch like on the B.O.B. 's .
Many people don't know that most of the parts of any B.O.B. trailer can be bought separately . like the axle nuts and the fork that goes around the rear tire of your bike. With those parts you can then build around them for a longer and wider trailer .
Note : There is now even a aftermarket axle that is made to work with the newer through axle design bikes and a B.O.B. trailer.

I do not know why people are mentioning DD hubs, especially using two of them since they are heavy and using two would add even that much more weight. Good perhaps for paved roads where you can keep constant speeds , but you live in the Mountains where I am sure that some of the roads will dictate slower speeds because of snow/slush / mud / loose gravel and or dirt is present.

I lived in the Mountains in the Past , I think for you a mid drive is better.

I would also get a motor that can use more than 1,500 watts continuously .

So

Back to the kind of drives that Dave ( tangentdave ) or a newer drive that Mike ( LightningRod's ) has made.

B.T.W. you can eliminate most of the wear problems of a mid drive by using a 2-3 + kw motor that drives the left side of the bike with a # 219 chain and sprocket . Sick Bike Parts and LightingRod's systems use these. you would not be using the rear gears to get up the mountain, but with 2-3 Kw of power you do not need those gears now. You will be able to power up. ( Like with two heavy DD Hub Motors )
But a lighter system than 2 heavy DD's .

With the type of drive and a home made Ibex type of trailer, you can now design around plus size tires as well, which I would want If I lived where you do.
27.5 inch +/Plus size wheels and Tires.

wardo wrote:
Feb 26, 2018 3:13 pm
The trike is a non-starter due to how narrow and poor the roads I'll be riding are. The hill itself is 1200' of climbing. I'll look at mapping the steepest section and work from there.

>

The dual wheel DD is interesting. I was leaning towards geared simply because I figured it would be good to gear down for climbs. I am guessing there might be an off the shelf solution for coordinating the two motors? Would DD get bogged down excessively?



amberwolf wrote:
Feb 26, 2018 2:37 pm
For as much weight as you're wanting to haul, you might consider a trike.


Anythng that goes thru the chain will wear all the drivetrain components faster, especially with loads like what yours will see.

Geared hubs in the wheel work too but they're more prone to overheating/damage if not kept in their efficient zone than DD hubs, and they do have some maintenance vs DDs.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by ScooterMan101 » Feb 27, 2018 3:17 pm

Ward,

There are 4 mid-drives designed here in the U.S. that are either being sold now or will be sold within about 6 months from now.
That would work for what you want to do.

1 ) Tangent ( Tangent Dave ) that makes a high power and fast drive , with 1 reduction stage or 2 stages , using a RC motor ,
His system is way over my budget in price so I do not reference it much, but certainly a product that will go up any mountain.

2 ) One from PaulD, Not a RC motor , but which is the cleanest looking one that looks like it is part of S.C. bike he has it on , and would be for me if I did not want to go faster than I do now , and would be happy with No throttle, but for me a Throttle is a Must Have.
From what I read his is targeted to the X.C. Mountain Single Track Trail Rider, it should cause little to no objection from a heavily populated multi use single track trail , being such low wattage and a quiet design compared to other Mid-Drives.

3 ) And one that Ecyclist is working on also a RC motor design like the tangent, which is a true piece of Machined Alloy Artwork , with a very interesting transmission that I like the looks of, and would do what you want to do, plus from what it looks like has some advantages on lower operating power losses , however it will not be available for a while yet. So as much as I like it I think there will be something else available by the time I would be able to buy one of his .

4 ) Then there is the LightningRod's mid drive that Mike has been working and improving on over the last couple of years.
Mike has many versions, Single Stage Reduction , 2 Stage Reduction , Small Block, Mid Block and Large Block Motors,
and different ways you can use these, like in front of the Crank, Driving the left side , and now mounted on the swing arm.
Mike also has many pieces of machined alloy that is true artwork .
He is working on a RC design as well, but that won't be available for a while either,
However ...
For what you want to do ( Go up a steep mountain as well as haul a heavy load )
His Mid or better yet for you, Big Block Motor is the best system for you, and it is available Now.

There are other mid-drives out there and I have looked at them , read about them , even the cyclone .
But am not buying any of them . the 4 I list above is what I like the most and would be most comfortable spending my money on.
( With 3 + years now of research on Mid-Drives )
For sure there will be more mid-drives available as well by next year and latter in the Future, But I think that the Design/Development work that is being done by the 4 people listed above , on the West Coast of the U.S. gives us a good enough choice for a great
mid-drive that we can buy now or within a few months from now.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by wardo » Feb 28, 2018 7:23 am

Thanks for the two thorough responses. The handling of a Bakfiet is something that crossed my mind. We'd be descending a mile of gravel with a 120 degree switchback before we hit tarmac. The front wheel is probably pretty prone to understeer unloaded, so that could be a problem. I know a few people with Yuba style cargo bikes, and they ride like a heavy tandem. There is a place in Boston that sells Bakfiets, so I should definitely demo one before I get too far along. Originally, I rejected the Yuba style due to the height of the load, and resultant CG. I could solve that be carrying really heavy stuff on a trailer I suppose. I have a Weehoo iGo cargo trailer used for touring, which is rated for 100 pounds. My first idea was to adapt an existing bike with a DD and use the trailer, but the limitations of DD and the fact that virtually everything I own is a through axle put the kabosh on that. Obviously I need to keep thinking about the whole concept with an open mind.

I like designing and building things, so that is a big part of the project, but wood has it's limitations and choosing the right design initially is the key. One of the big challenges of using a mid drive in a wood frame is the motor mount area. It is crucial that there is sufficient overlap of the laminates to provide strength, but that makes for a bulky tube intersection. I am trying to figure that out....

Regards,
Ward
ScooterMan101 wrote:
Feb 27, 2018 10:03 am
If I lived in Phoenix or any other Big City with paved roads and allot of car traffic a big visible trike and trailer is exactly what I would ride on the road with ... for safety and cargo hauling reasons .

From what you now say with the narrow and poor roads you will be riding I would also forget about a Dutch Bakfiet type bike, I would not want to steer that thing down a steep hill or a twisty road/trail.

There is a great solution for hauling for anyone like you who lives up in the Mountains , ... the B.O.B. Ibex trailer .
They were designed exactly for riding on Mountain and Single Track Trails.
And
With your talent you could even build your own, wider and longer, and perhaps even a 20 inch wheel instead of the 16 inch like on the B.O.B. 's .
Many people don't know that most of the parts of any B.O.B. trailer can be bought separately . like the axle nuts and the fork that goes around the rear tire of your bike. With those parts you can then build around them for a longer and wider trailer .
Note : There is now even a aftermarket axle that is made to work with the newer through axle design bikes and a B.O.B. trailer.

I do not know why people are mentioning DD hubs, especially using two of them since they are heavy and using two would add even that much more weight. Good perhaps for paved roads where you can keep constant speeds , but you live in the Mountains where I am sure that some of the roads will dictate slower speeds because of snow/slush / mud / loose gravel and or dirt is present.

I lived in the Mountains in the Past , I think for you a mid drive is better.

I would also get a motor that can use more than 1,500 watts continuously .

So

Back to the kind of drives that Dave ( tangentdave ) or a newer drive that Mike ( LightningRod's ) has made.

B.T.W. you can eliminate most of the wear problems of a mid drive by using a 2-3 + kw motor that drives the left side of the bike with a # 219 chain and sprocket . Sick Bike Parts and LightingRod's systems use these. you would not be using the rear gears to get up the mountain, but with 2-3 Kw of power you do not need those gears now. You will be able to power up. ( Like with two heavy DD Hub Motors )
But a lighter system than 2 heavy DD's .

With the type of drive and a home made Ibex type of trailer, you can now design around plus size tires as well, which I would want If I lived where you do.
27.5 inch +/Plus size wheels and Tires.

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by wardo » Feb 28, 2018 7:25 am

Great info, thanks!
Ward
ScooterMan101 wrote:
Feb 27, 2018 3:17 pm
Ward,

There are 4 mid-drives designed here in the U.S. that are either being sold now or will be sold within about 6 months from now.
That would work for what you want to do.

1 ) Tangent ( Tangent Dave ) that makes a high power and fast drive , with 1 reduction stage or 2 stages , using a RC motor ,
His system is way over my budget in price so I do not reference it much, but certainly a product that will go up any mountain.

2 ) One from PaulD, Not a RC motor , but which is the cleanest looking one that looks like it is part of S.C. bike he has it on , and would be for me if I did not want to go faster than I do now , and would be happy with No throttle, but for me a Throttle is a Must Have.
From what I read his is targeted to the X.C. Mountain Single Track Trail Rider, it should cause little to no objection from a heavily populated multi use single track trail , being such low wattage and a quiet design compared to other Mid-Drives.

3 ) And one that Ecyclist is working on also a RC motor design like the tangent, which is a true piece of Machined Alloy Artwork , with a very interesting transmission that I like the looks of, and would do what you want to do, plus from what it looks like has some advantages on lower operating power losses , however it will not be available for a while yet. So as much as I like it I think there will be something else available by the time I would be able to buy one of his .

4 ) Then there is the LightningRod's mid drive that Mike has been working and improving on over the last couple of years.
Mike has many versions, Single Stage Reduction , 2 Stage Reduction , Small Block, Mid Block and Large Block Motors,
and different ways you can use these, like in front of the Crank, Driving the left side , and now mounted on the swing arm.
Mike also has many pieces of machined alloy that is true artwork .
He is working on a RC design as well, but that won't be available for a while either,
However ...
For what you want to do ( Go up a steep mountain as well as haul a heavy load )
His Mid or better yet for you, Big Block Motor is the best system for you, and it is available Now.

There are other mid-drives out there and I have looked at them , read about them , even the cyclone .
But am not buying any of them . the 4 I list above is what I like the most and would be most comfortable spending my money on.
( With 3 + years now of research on Mid-Drives )
For sure there will be more mid-drives available as well by next year and latter in the Future, But I think that the Design/Development work that is being done by the 4 people listed above , on the West Coast of the U.S. gives us a good enough choice for a great
mid-drive that we can buy now or within a few months from now.

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by Alan B » Feb 28, 2018 2:31 pm

Just as a point of comparison, my commuting machine (linked in my signature) was operating very similarly to your requirements in many respects. Rider 200 pounds, bike 120+ pounds, cargo 10-20 pounds so the total weight is very close to 350 pounds. The commute included 1200 feet of vertical rise in 13 miles up to to 15% gradient. Battery pack is 18S4P Multistar so 75V fully charged and 32 amp hours. It would easily make the round trip of 26 miles on one charge. Motor is DD Cromotor rated at about 3kw and operated up to 5kw peak, controller is Sabvoton. 17" Moped wheels and tires. The battery weighs about 24 pounds, included in the bike's weight. This bike is not light, it is a steel frame, full suspension, and designed to carry batteries and controller in the frame.

The smaller wheels are important as they reduce the load on the motor compared to larger ones. They are about 23 inches in outer diameter.

Clearly this is not set up for much cargo, you are essentially building a lighter bike and have a lighter rider so the total weight is similar. But this demonstrates a system with a DD motor that will easily handle a similar load on steep gradients, and the commuter was used daily when the weather was good, until I retired and required little maintenance aside from tires. The Bonanza with dual hubmotors handles the same commute with similar performance, as does the BBSHD on a mountain bike, though they are slightly lighter systems and they carry less battery capacity. The BBSHD didn't have quite as much performance (1500W) as the dual hubmotor or the Cromotor, but it was lighter and permitted easier tire repairs and required more chain and sprocket maintenance.

The performance of the Cromotor on the 15% gradient is about 25 mph with weight similar to your initial estimated total weight.

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by wardo » Mar 01, 2018 11:39 am

That is very helpful in providing concrete data, thanks!

Ward

Alan B wrote:
Feb 28, 2018 2:31 pm
Just as a point of comparison, my commuting machine (linked in my signature) was operating very similarly to your requirements in many respects. Rider 200 pounds, bike 120+ pounds, cargo 10-20 pounds so the total weight is very close to 350 pounds. The commute included 1200 feet of vertical rise in 13 miles up to to 15% gradient. Battery pack is 18S4P Multistar so 75V fully charged and 32 amp hours. It would easily make the round trip of 26 miles on one charge. Motor is DD Cromotor rated at about 3kw and operated up to 5kw peak, controller is Sabvoton. 17" Moped wheels and tires. The battery weighs about 24 pounds, included in the bike's weight. This bike is not light, it is a steel frame, full suspension, and designed to carry batteries and controller in the frame.

The smaller wheels are important as they reduce the load on the motor compared to larger ones. They are about 23 inches in outer diameter.

Clearly this is not set up for much cargo, you are essentially building a lighter bike and have a lighter rider so the total weight is similar. But this demonstrates a system with a DD motor that will easily handle a similar load on steep gradients, and the commuter was used daily when the weather was good, until I retired and required little maintenance aside from tires. The Bonanza with dual hubmotors handles the same commute with similar performance, as does the BBSHD on a mountain bike, though they are slightly lighter systems and they carry less battery capacity. The BBSHD didn't have quite as much performance (1500W) as the dual hubmotor or the Cromotor, but it was lighter and permitted easier tire repairs and required more chain and sprocket maintenance.

The performance of the Cromotor on the 15% gradient is about 25 mph with weight similar to your initial estimated total weight.

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by wardo » Mar 04, 2018 11:38 am

I just calculated the grades up to my house from town. It averages 5.3% for the 2.5 miles, with the final .5 mile being 7.6%.

Ward

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by wardo » Mar 05, 2018 5:17 pm

Over the weekend, I had time to further research drive systems and put pencil to paper to do a first iteration of the frame. I really haven't decided whether to go with a mid drive or 2wd, but that can wait as I gain further knowledge. I have had a few e-mails with Scott from Luna and that has helped me frame things better. The main difference at this point as far as the frame is concerned is how I build the BB area. I am imaging the battery will go in the cargo area under the grandchild seat.

Image

Image

Any constructive input is appreciated.

Thanks,
Ward

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by ScooterMan101 » Mar 08, 2018 9:08 am

Wardo,

What are some places where a person can buy ?

1) Head Tube , 1 1/8 top and 1 1/2 bottom , or any other size like 1 1/8 straight or 1 1/2 straight .

2 ) BSA Bottom Bracket tube

3 ) what ever is needed to make a frame that will accept the now standard
12mm x 143 mm rear hub through axle

Are there other shapes besides round tubes , like a headtube and BB connected to any square or rectangular tube , like the old steel lugged parts of years ago road bike used to use.

So that anyone interested can make their own frame.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by amberwolf » Mar 08, 2018 2:14 pm

There's at least a few places that supply frame lugs. I don't know which ones sell to end-users, or if any of them sell the specific parts you're after, but this search shows some
https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle ... 8&oe=utf-8
and there are probably others that don't show up under those terms.

I suspect any LBS could order them for an end-user, if they chose to. I know that many will not, as I could not find one here that would do it for me years back when I was starting to build my own stuff, so I just got junked bikes and used parts from those, and have done so ever since.

When not brazing tubing to the lugs, like with a wooden frame, it might be easier to take existing bike frames apart for the parts needed, leaving the length of tubing frame attached you need to connect it to the rest of your custom frame, modifying and removing that tubing as needed to fit your design.

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by wardo » Mar 18, 2018 6:55 pm

Scooterman,
Sorry I missed this, I was away mountain biking in NC for a week. I use Paragon Machine for most of the things you mentioned, here's a link: https://www.paragonmachineworks.com/, another place to look is Nova Cycles: http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-fra ... g/home.php. Nova has oval as well as round tubes. I don't know of any modular style connectors like you mention. I'd use a simple MIG and weld it up, but you'll need to make a jig to do so.

Thanks,
Ward
ScooterMan101 wrote:
Mar 08, 2018 9:08 am
Wardo,

What are some places where a person can buy ?

1) Head Tube , 1 1/8 top and 1 1/2 bottom , or any other size like 1 1/8 straight or 1 1/2 straight .

2 ) BSA Bottom Bracket tube

3 ) what ever is needed to make a frame that will accept the now standard
12mm x 143 mm rear hub through axle

Are there other shapes besides round tubes , like a headtube and BB connected to any square or rectangular tube , like the old steel lugged parts of years ago road bike used to use.

So that anyone interested can make their own frame.

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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by zro-1 » Mar 18, 2018 8:20 pm

That's a gorgeous bike you built, and the new build sounds really interesting. I can't wait to see how it all comes out.
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Re: Introduction and proposed project

Post by ScooterMan101 » Mar 21, 2018 4:37 pm

This Modular 142 x 12 mm Dropout is exactly what I was thinking about .

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-fra ... -SPEC.html

For Mid Drives that will use the now common 142mm x 12 mm through axle
wheels.

With this a more e-bike specific rear swing arm can be made , and/or Crowd Sourced Designed , so as to be used on the new RC mid-drives that are be developed.

Perhaps someone here on E.S. can make modular droupouts for use with the rear hub motors, horizontal slots with bolt on torque arms.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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