The end of BionX?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
User avatar
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2356
Joined: Feb 09 2007 3:02am
Location: Marlboro

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Mar 15 2018 7:18pm

already discussed & rejected
Kick down the barricades Listen what the kids say.
From time to time people change their minds But the Frock is here to stay.
I've seen it all from the bottom to the top Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.
Around the world or around the block Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.

Cephalotus   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 470
Joined: Jun 18 2012 12:27pm

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Cephalotus » Mar 16 2018 8:03am

Chalo wrote:
Mar 15 2018 2:09pm
I can't help but think that their commitment to a closed system was partly what put them out of business. And in due course, it will be what makes the remaining kits disappear ahead of schedule.
Other closed systems from Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha and so on are VERY popular.

For one DIY e-Bike I assume there are now 100 Bosch e-bikes in Germany and this system is as closed as it gets.

700.000 Pedleec have been sold in Germany during 2017. In Europa around 2 million Pedelecs have been sold.

In Germany the rate for speed Pedleec (legal 45km/h) has stagnated around 1% (one percent), similar to 2016. In the Netherlands the rate for speed Pedelec was around 1.4%. I don't have the numver for Switzerland, maybe it is highest there.
Other European countries like UK, Italy, Austria or France do not have that option at all.

That's amazingly low.

On the other hand 3% of the electric bikes sold in Germany have been cargo e-bikes. Did'nt expect that and I think this is great.

So having a proprietary system is certainly not a problem for selling electric bikes in Europe which is the market to be if you want to earn money.

User avatar
wturber   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1335
Joined: Aug 23 2017 8:52pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by wturber » Mar 16 2018 9:24am

Cephalotus wrote:
Mar 16 2018 8:03am
Chalo wrote:
Mar 15 2018 2:09pm
I can't help but think that their commitment to a closed system was partly what put them out of business. And in due course, it will be what makes the remaining kits disappear ahead of schedule.
Other closed systems from Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha and so on are VERY popular.
And then there's the whole history of Apple Computer.

I personally dislike closed systems and I try to avoid them when I have good alternatives. But the reality is that they can be very successful if designed and marketed well.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

rowbiker   10 W

10 W
Posts: 86
Joined: Jul 16 2013 1:36pm
Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota USA

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by rowbiker » Mar 16 2018 9:46am

justin_le wrote:
Mar 01 2018 6:32pm
Also, part of why this news stings a little bit for me is that I had just completed a pretty exhaustive study of Statorade as a motor cooling solution in both the BionX PL350 and 'D' series motors, and was hoping that we could have our first proper OEM customer for this after our 3 years testing and R&D. Have a read at the attached .pdf document and tell me this wouldn't have been a perfect pairing.
<snip>
It would have been a sweet little partnership, since it could increase the power and performance at thermal rollback of their motors by a substantial percentage with minimal additional cost to BionX and no change at all to their manufacturing process. And who knows if with the right marketing that might have resulted in a boost in interest and sales for the BionX system.
Justin, before you totallly relegate this to the dustbin of history, think of the remaining opportunities here: "GrinX"

Among other e-powered objects in my corral, one is a BionX powered RowBike. My future, in regards to that particular beast, at least, is in your very capable hands. I don't know Canadian law, but here in the US, receivers and bankruptcy trustees have a fiduciary duty to salvage whatever remaining value lies in the failing enterprise. You may have something to offer them.

It ain't over until the weight-challenged lady sings. And knowing you, even that's probably not the end.

User avatar
eCue   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Nov 03 2017 5:14pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by eCue » Mar 16 2018 10:44am

If my BionX battery pack failed to charge I would pull it apart snip the BMS free and install a wifi BMS
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7127
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Chalo » Mar 16 2018 1:13pm

Cephalotus wrote:
Mar 16 2018 8:03am
Chalo wrote:
Mar 15 2018 2:09pm
I can't help but think that their commitment to a closed system was partly what put them out of business. And in due course, it will be what makes the remaining kits disappear ahead of schedule.
Other closed systems from Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha and so on are VERY popular.
Bully for them. But those companies have mostly other business (which is why they could afford the risk of entering such a questionable market), and they might very well decide to abandon e-bike equipment at any time. If they do, the consequences for buyers will be the same as it is for Bionx owners.

This isn't a new lesson to learn. Sanyo, SRAM, Wavecrest, and others have entered and left the e-bike market already with more or less proprietary systems. Approximately nobody is still using them. Some modular equipment from the same time periods is still in service. Some contemporary manufacturers of modular equipment that we knew then are still with us. But all the dedicated, intentionally incompatible systems are gone.

The manufacturers might or might not be able to pull a win out of a losing e-bike design strategy. But those who buy in will lose-- either with unsupported orphaned equipment, or with higher purchase and repair costs for the same or lesser functionality compared to modular equipment.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

User avatar
madin88   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2757
Joined: May 27 2013 2:02am
Location: Austria

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by madin88 » Mar 16 2018 3:11pm

Cephalotus wrote:
Mar 15 2018 1:45pm
B-side wrote:
Mar 15 2018 1:09pm

The BMS is still OK but needs to be reprogrammed. Can be done using BBI if you have access to "recover" functions...
Recover function never worked for me in case of a deactivated BionX BMS.

BionX wants to kill their batteries when cells have been deeply discharged (sometime sin the life of the BMS). Sad ting is that this prevents DIY cell replacements.

This is understandable from the companies point of view (not anybody wants to see a picture of a burning battery with your companies name on it), but of course this is quite shitty for the DIYer, who wants to replace the aging cells.

It's worse because the BionX BMS fails more often than the cell packs, so there is a large demand for functional BionX BMS but no supply.
Yes its true that sometimes the BMS quit it's job even if the cells never got deep discharged.
The whole thing i would call PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE. It is a waste of materials and should be forbidded.

BMS should be built to prevent that cells become deep discharged, and not to bite the dust if that happends.

User avatar
liveforphysics   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13933
Joined: Oct 29 2008 1:48am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 16 2018 4:45pm

Chalo wrote:
Mar 15 2018 2:09pm
I can't help but think that their commitment to a closed system was partly what put them out of business. And in due course, it will be what makes the remaining kits disappear ahead of schedule.


I agree with this for first principles basics.

The more situations and applications a thing is functional in, the lower chances of the thing becoming e-waste.

It also creates opportunities, as I'm sure it wouldn't be more than a weekend or two of intercepting it's own data COMs to reverse engineer it go an extent that let's an otherwise nice motor design go from paperweight to powering a commuter.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

User avatar
LockH   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 17463
Joined: Jul 09 2013 11:06pm
Location: Ummm.. Started out in Victoria BC Canada, then started to move around... Oh oh.

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by LockH » Mar 16 2018 10:13pm

Cephalotus wrote:
Mar 16 2018 8:03am
In Germany the rate for speed Pedleec (legal 45km/h) has stagnated around 1% (one percent), similar to 2016. In the Netherlands the rate for speed Pedelec was around 1.4%. I don't have the numver for Switzerland, maybe it is highest there.
Other European countries like UK, Italy, Austria or France do not have that option at all.
Huh? Hmmm... Seen in ES Newz on March 9... "The easy thing to do would have been to sit on the fence when covering the speed pedelec segment, currently considered a niche of an albeit now exploding former niche."

February 19th:
The Bicycle Association of Great Britain (BAGB) is pushing for such an e-bike subsidy scheme as the UK government states that Low-emission vehicles are eligible for it. Belgium is also encouraging commuting by bicycle. Employers can reward staff for commuting by bike, paying them €0.23 for every kilometre they cycle. Hundreds of thousands of e-bike riders in Belgium are participating in this ‘cycle to work’ tax scheme. This program has been extended to speed-pedelecs recently.
February 15th:
Today, the Danish Road Safety Agency released a draft for a trial on letting so-called Speed Pedelecs use bike lanes in the country. Speed Pedelecs are able to reach a motor-assisted top speed of 45 km/h (28 mph) as opposed to standard Pedelec e-bikes that can go 25 km/h (15 mph).
... and etc...
ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

Eff. June, 2014 Phoenix Ebike Promotions

(Current ride? High speed lawn chair.)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57408

Phoenix Ebike Promotions conversion kit (work in progress. More drink holders, etc etc)
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=60564

Joined yer local chapter of EA yet?
(Ebikers Anonymous - Where we're all miserable failures, but the parties are hilarious...)

miro13car   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1539
Joined: Mar 26 2007 1:30pm
Location: Calgary, Canada

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by miro13car » Mar 18 2018 8:39am

Chalo
Wavecrest did NOT leave market because It is proprietary.
picking on Wavecrest.....
it is extremaly easy to hook up third party battery to Tadial Force ebike made by WAVECREST LABS.
you can check it on TF Google forum.
DIY is very small segment of ebiking ,
most want reliable ready to ride ebike not to thinker with China brand crap.
going into detail?
battery SOC for example.
BOSH shows you real capacity left , capacity metering based on Columb count - just one example why they charge $$$

User avatar
LockH   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 17463
Joined: Jul 09 2013 11:06pm
Location: Ummm.. Started out in Victoria BC Canada, then started to move around... Oh oh.

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by LockH » Apr 03 2018 2:02pm

Word from OHM Electric Bikes (BionX ebike makes) less than 3hrs. ago... "We are confident that Bionx will change owners soon and resume business within a few months. If they do not, we will be looking into other drive systems."
ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

Eff. June, 2014 Phoenix Ebike Promotions

(Current ride? High speed lawn chair.)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57408

Phoenix Ebike Promotions conversion kit (work in progress. More drink holders, etc etc)
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=60564

Joined yer local chapter of EA yet?
(Ebikers Anonymous - Where we're all miserable failures, but the parties are hilarious...)

billvon   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1737
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by billvon » Apr 03 2018 2:14pm

Chalo wrote:
Mar 16 2018 1:13pm
This isn't a new lesson to learn. Sanyo, SRAM, Wavecrest, and others have entered and left the e-bike market already with more or less proprietary systems. Approximately nobody is still using them. Some modular equipment from the same time periods is still in service. Some contemporary manufacturers of modular equipment that we knew then are still with us. But all the dedicated, intentionally incompatible systems are gone.
I had both Wavecrest and EMS bikes. (I still have one as my backup.) Both used non-OEM batteries and Cycle Analysts.

Most people who buy ebikes want to buy an ebike with everything already integrated. They don't want to try to figure out whether to use a Phaserunner or an Infineon. They don't want to deal with Lunacycle shipping them a battery that doesn't quite fit. They don't want to have to buy hex keys. They want a bike they can plug in and use - and call the service number if anything goes wrong. These people PREFER dedicated, all in one systems with few options.

A very small percentage represent the people here - techies who like building things. These people don't care if the bike uses "dedicated, intentionally incompatible" equipment, because they will just cut the connectors off and do their own thing anyway.

The "it's proprietary so it will never sell!" argument just doesn't fly. Look at the car market. How many people refuse to buy a car because the CAN bus on that car is difficult to hack? Now how many people refuse to buy a car because it's the wrong color?
--bill von

User avatar
spinningmagnets   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10637
Joined: Dec 21 2007 10:27pm
Location: Ft Riley, NE Kansas

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by spinningmagnets » Apr 03 2018 2:23pm

Concerning Wavecrest, I was under the impression they were pushing for military contracts, and that fact was reflected in the way they were spending R&D money. When those contracts didn't pan out, the civilian sales were too weak to keep it afloat.

It could be argued that Wavecrest didn't die because the bikes were too expensive, they died because of X,Y, and Z. However, if sales were robust, they would have had enough profits to survive X, Y, and Z.

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7127
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Chalo » Apr 03 2018 2:33pm

billvon wrote:
Apr 03 2018 2:14pm
Look at the car market. How many people refuse to buy a car because the CAN bus on that car is difficult to hack? Now how many people refuse to buy a car because it's the wrong color?
Car people exemplify the very worst and weakest things about us. Just get out on the street as a human being and see for yourself. To me, you might as well ask why serial killers do the things the way they do.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

billvon   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1737
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by billvon » Apr 03 2018 4:12pm

Chalo wrote:
Apr 03 2018 2:33pm
Car people exemplify the very worst and weakest things about us. Just get out on the street as a human being and see for yourself. To me, you might as well ask why serial killers do the things the way they do.
Which is equivalent to saying "consumers exemplify the very worst and weakest things about us." So yes, if you don't want any plan to work with consumers, and work only for the technical people on this board, then your suggestion has merit.
--bill von

Syonyk   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 517
Joined: May 16 2015 12:41am

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Syonyk » Apr 03 2018 4:54pm

eCue wrote:
Mar 16 2018 10:44am
If my BionX battery pack failed to charge I would pull it apart snip the BMS free and install a wifi BMS
This will work, sort of, but you won't have any battery status indication on the console, will have error codes, and if I had to guess, I'd say it would probably disable regen without any clue how full the battery is (to avoid overfilling a battery).

Basically, all the 48V systems are soon to be scrap.
Battery packs, Sunkko Welders, and more. http://syonyk.blogspot.com/

billvon   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1737
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by billvon » Apr 03 2018 5:04pm

Syonyk wrote:
Apr 03 2018 4:54pm
This will work, sort of, but you won't have any battery status indication on the console, will have error codes, and if I had to guess, I'd say it would probably disable regen without any clue how full the battery is (to avoid overfilling a battery).
So add a cycle analyst.
Basically, all the 48V systems are soon to be scrap.
48V (even 36V) provides plenty of power for most ebike applications.
--bill von

Syonyk   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 517
Joined: May 16 2015 12:41am

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Syonyk » Apr 03 2018 5:10pm

billvon wrote:
Apr 03 2018 5:04pm
So add a cycle analyst.
I mean, at some point, you could hack enough crap onto the system to make it sort of work, but the draw of BionX, at least in my experience, is the integrated system. Having one console over here, another one for monitoring the battery, no regen, etc... not going to be popular among the crowd that owns BionX.
48V (even 36V) provides plenty of power for most ebike applications.
That was specific to BionX... in, you know, a BionX thread... The 48V BionX packs are weak on the best of days in terms of robustness. They are constantly failing from some failure or other (failed output FETs, wearing out the cells, cell balance issues for no apparent reason, etc), and the supply of them will run short. Or people will run short on patience for their third $1000 pack in 5 years.
Battery packs, Sunkko Welders, and more. http://syonyk.blogspot.com/

billvon   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1737
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by billvon » Apr 03 2018 5:32pm

Syonyk wrote:
Apr 03 2018 5:10pm
I mean, at some point, you could hack enough crap onto the system to make it sort of work, but the draw of BionX, at least in my experience, is the integrated system. Having one console over here, another one for monitoring the battery, no regen, etc... not going to be popular among the crowd that owns BionX.
Agreed there.
That was specific to BionX... in, you know, a BionX thread... The 48V BionX packs are weak on the best of days in terms of robustness. They are constantly failing from some failure or other (failed output FETs, wearing out the cells, cell balance issues for no apparent reason, etc), and the supply of them will run short. Or people will run short on patience for their third $1000 pack in 5 years.
OK. Sorry, I thought you were talking about the potential for replacement with another battery.
--bill von

User avatar
spinningmagnets   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10637
Joined: Dec 21 2007 10:27pm
Location: Ft Riley, NE Kansas

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by spinningmagnets » Apr 03 2018 7:03pm

If you open up a BionX D-series, how hard is it to parse out the motor phase wires and run a cable to the outside so you can attach a standard 3-phase ebike controller?

I want BionX to survive, but...if there suddenly becomes a LOT of cheap used D-series hubs available, I want to know what it would take to get one running...

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7127
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Chalo » Apr 03 2018 7:35pm

billvon wrote:
Apr 03 2018 4:12pm
Chalo wrote:
Apr 03 2018 2:33pm
Car people exemplify the very worst and weakest things about us. Just get out on the street as a human being and see for yourself. To me, you might as well ask why serial killers do the things the way they do.
Which is equivalent to saying "consumers exemplify the very worst and weakest things about us." So yes, if you don't want any plan to work with consumers, and work only for the technical people on this board, then your suggestion has merit.
I suggest that if you want to sell good e-bikes, the market composed of car-buying "consumers" is of no significant value to you. They'll buy a bike but not ride it, so the merits of the bike are irrelevant.

There are already lots of people selling useless e-BSOs to useless "consumers".
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

Syonyk   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 517
Joined: May 16 2015 12:41am

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Syonyk » Apr 03 2018 9:21pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
Apr 03 2018 7:03pm
If you open up a BionX D-series, how hard is it to parse out the motor phase wires and run a cable to the outside so you can attach a standard 3-phase ebike controller?

I want BionX to survive, but...if there suddenly becomes a LOT of cheap used D-series hubs available, I want to know what it would take to get one running...
It's quite difficult to get their units apart, and not much easier to get them back together.

I assume if you trace the controller outputs you can find the three phase wires. That's the easy part...
Battery packs, Sunkko Welders, and more. http://syonyk.blogspot.com/

User avatar
eCue   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 631
Joined: Nov 03 2017 5:14pm
Location: Vancouver Island , Canada

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by eCue » Apr 04 2018 1:23am

Syonyk wrote:
Apr 03 2018 4:54pm
eCue wrote:
Mar 16 2018 10:44am
If my BionX battery pack failed to charge I would pull it apart snip the BMS free and install a wifi BMS
This will work, sort of, but you won't have any battery status indication on the console, will have error codes, and if I had to guess, I'd say it would probably disable regen without any clue how full the battery is (to avoid overfilling a battery).

Basically, all the 48V systems are soon to be scrap.
You might of overthought this there is a good chance the controller uses the voltage state to know to engage regen and display the voltage.

Edit - I now realize they paired the bms to the controller - sneaky guys
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7813
Solar charge station on wheels join the Revolution

Syonyk   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 517
Joined: May 16 2015 12:41am

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Syonyk » Apr 04 2018 11:36am

eCue wrote:
Apr 04 2018 1:23am
You might of overthought this there is a good chance the controller uses the voltage state to know to engage regen and display the voltage.

Edit - I now realize they paired the bms to the controller - sneaky guys
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7813
Sadly, no. BionX took what should be a simple interface and overcomplicated it to the point of unreliability. The BMS board talks the console over either I2C (on the pre-2008-ish units) or Canbus, and communicates battery state of charge over that channel. The raw voltage is probably available to the console, but only over the data channel.

The battery won't remain powered on unless a particular register gets written to regularly, so you can't (easily) use the batteries for other systems.

They're comically complicated for something that should be straightforward, and pretty much entirely unlike the rest of the ebike world.
Battery packs, Sunkko Welders, and more. http://syonyk.blogspot.com/

Raisedeyebrows   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 390
Joined: May 13 2017 1:39pm
Location: Oregon/South Point Hawaii USA back and forth

Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Apr 05 2018 3:10pm

Stopped in my LBS yesterday to get a couple little washers and asked them what was going on with the Bionix situation, they said they're at least going to sell their remaining stock and see what happens with the company. I told them they should just get an account with Grintech started and ask Justin's advice on what stuff to sell for reliability and stuff they could actually fix right in the shop.
Yuba Mundo w/BBSHD
Specialized Hard Rock w/9c clone, statoraid, hubsink
Trek Fuel 90 w/BBSHD
Above all run on 14s4p 52v li-ion
Ecobike folder 36v
Currie Flyer scooter 24v on 24ah of SLA

Every trip made with electric bike is one less car trip, saves money, no toxic fumes, less noise, less impact on roads.

Post Reply