The end of BionX?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
2old   10 kW

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by 2old » Aug 07 2018 11:01pm

Looks like Ohm and ELBY are collateral damage since both use BionX in all their models AFAICT. Both companies have reduced their prices, but not enough considering the potential warranty problems IMO.

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by towodi63m » Aug 15 2018 3:03am

Hello ALL,
My question is where is or who makes the BMS for BionX? Why can't that company sell replacement BMS boards for the dead ones? IMO they are loosing out. The boards they sell as after market don't need to have BionX printed on them and the board itself can't be copyrighted or trademarked. So where is the problem. Am I not seeing something here?

I have two batteries for my BionX PL350 powered bike. One medium? range and one Long range. I always start my ride with the medium range battery, that way I know I can get back home with the long range battery. Now the Long range battery charged just fine after my last ride and the charger says it's fully charged as it does the short range battery. Checking the voltage myself it is at 41 Volts which is its normal charged voltage. The problem is that it will not wake up. I have tried to jumper A1 to 3 and still nothing. if either of the batteries were ever below the lowest voltage to turn off the BMS it should have been the short range battery, but that is the battery that still works. It left me in a real bind twenty two miles from home. This wouldn't be a real problem probably for most people, but I am a Disabled Veteran and I truly can not ride a non assisted bike for more than two miles even in the lowest gear. My legs just do not have the strength or the ability for that matter. An E-bike was what got me out of my wheelchair to start with. I started out with an EZip and moved up to a true power assist when mt legs became more use to actually moving the pedals. Now I am stuck, and in all honesty probably falling backwards. I don't want to end back in the damn chair either. I really need help here guys. I don't understand why the battery failed at all. I take care of them both very well and they really don't have that many miles or hours on them.

If I can't get this L battery to work again I'm thinking about pulling the batteries out and wiring them in parallel with the short range battery. At least that way I should be able to ride again. I believe this should work. Is my thinking wrong here also? If this won't work then I guess I will be forced to buy a front hub motor kit on amazon and use the long range battery set to power that hub to get me home. It just won't be a power assist as the BionX is. The True assist of the BionX system is why I purchased it to start.

Any help would and is Greatly Appreciated!!!

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Chalo » Aug 15 2018 11:08am

towodi63m wrote:
Aug 15 2018 3:03am
Why can't that company sell replacement BMS boards for the dead ones? IMO they are loosing out. The boards they sell as after market don't need to have BionX printed on them and the board itself can't be copyrighted or trademarked.
If there's patented technology or a non-compete agreement in force, then they can't do that. My guess is that there's probably some of each.

Bionx may be dead, but somebody still owns the IP.

Accept the lesson and buy an open system next time.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Voltron » Aug 15 2018 11:56am

Hey Towodi.. congrats on getting out of the wheelchair. Paralleling up the battery while it's still working might bridge the gap you.
And if you do have to get a kit, maybe it's worth going all the way and getting a rear, then stripping both Bionx BMSs and using the cells.

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by towodi63m » Aug 15 2018 3:06pm

Yes Voltron that might work if there was a setup out there that was truly an assist instead of just a throttle. I'm not interested at All in a system that just has just a throttle. to keep my legs working towards walking freely without KAFO's I really Need the assist function. This allows me to peddle with the strength, such as it is, of my legs. This has been allowing me to come from only throttle use to 4 bars of assistance to two bars of assistance sometimes then back to four when my legs just get to tired to push two bars anymore.

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by towodi63m » Aug 15 2018 3:24pm

Thanks for your Help Voltron!

Thanks for the advise, such as it is, Chalo. I asked for help not a put down. In 2012 when I purchased this bike with the extra battery it cost me close to $4000 for the entire setup. It was the Best system on the market at that time. And when you are wheelchair bound it is very hard to create and build something especially with very little electronic knowledge. The knowledge I had was that
i wanted to get out of the damn chair. The VA would help me get a hand trike but how does that help to strengthen my legs or even get them working. 15 years 24 hour a day of tens units one on each leg with both set of electrodes helped to reroute the nerves, but learning to use those new nerve paths has been tedious. It would have been nice if they had helped me get the Tadpol recumbent, but "You are a Paraplegic." "We'll get you a handtrike."

So walk a Mile in my shoes before you just give a snide comment. But again Thank You.

Steve

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by 2old » Aug 15 2018 3:47pm

There are front hub systems with PAS, but the ones I know of are RPM-sensor, which IMO isn't bad since I have one that operates that way. FME it's possible to find a level of assist that makes you pedal with some force. There are much more knowledgeable individuals here; hope they chime in. Also, maybe you should initiate a separate thread so individuals realize they're not just responding to the BionX issue. I don't know why individuals don't put their location; if you are in socal, I have contacts for you.

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Voltron » Aug 15 2018 3:48pm

With a throttle you can still pedal as much as you ever did with pedal sensing... Maybe even a little more if you want, as the motor doesn't come on automatically, so say when you're on a downhill, you can just let off the throttle and pedal, without scrolling through the power levels back and forth to turn it off for the downhill but back on again uphill.

They also have units with either a torque sensing bottom bracket replacement, or a spring load sensor jockey wheel on the chain that can give you true pedal force sensing.

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by wturber » Aug 15 2018 4:27pm

2old wrote:
Aug 15 2018 3:47pm
There are front hub systems with PAS, but the ones I know of are RPM-sensor, which IMO isn't bad since I have one that operates that way. FME it's possible to find a level of assist that makes you pedal with some force. There are much more knowledgeable individuals here; hope they chime in. Also, maybe you should initiate a separate thread so individuals realize they're not just responding to the BionX issue. I don't know why individuals don't put their location; if you are in socal, I have contacts for you.
Yes, the KT type systems are quite decent for an RPM based system. You can use the LCD panel to dial in the level of assist that you need in five steps. So when you are feeling stronger, you can dial back. When you are running out of steam, you can dial up the power. You can pre-configure the five settings to weaker or stronger general assist as well. Further, you can have a hand throttle that works independently of the PAS system or you can configure it so that it is only enabled when you are pedaling. That works nicely as a "turbo" button for accelerating more quickly from stops or dealing with short hills. I also sometimes use it as my legs get tired to give me a temporary boost and a bit of relief so I can keep my same speed and not "blow up" my legs.

These systems are relatively inexpensive. You can find controllers, LCD displays and even controller kits on ebay and quite a few complete systems on BMSBattery.com. These controllers are the ones that use the LCD3, LCD5 or LCD6 displays.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
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viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Chalo » Aug 15 2018 5:24pm

towodi63m wrote:
Aug 15 2018 3:24pm
So walk a Mile in my shoes before you just give a snide comment.
It wasn't meant to be snide. Sorry if it came across that way. My points were,

1) the only thing really wrong with Bionx systems is that they were intentionally designed to be proprietary and resistant to modification, and

2) it's probably not worth your time to try to revive the system you have. The motor, maybe. But a controller and BMS that will only work when paired with each other? To hell with that.

Most e-bike motor systems are not closed like Bionx. So you can replace, modify, upgrade as you so choose.

For what it's worth, I have a similar issue with NuVinci hubs that I use. They're great as long as they work, but the manufacturer assumed that any and all internal service would be be done by them. So there are no service manuals, special tools, or necessary fluids available, and now the manufacturer who had those things is gone.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by towodi63m » Aug 16 2018 8:26am

2old wrote:
Aug 15 2018 3:47pm
There are front hub systems with PAS, but the ones I know of are RPM-sensor, which IMO isn't bad since I have one that operates that way. FME it's possible to find a level of assist that makes you pedal with some force. There are much more knowledgeable individuals here; hope they chime in. Also, maybe you should initiate a separate thread so individuals realize they're not just responding to the BionX issue. I don't know why individuals don't put their location; if you are in socal, I have contacts for you.
Thanks 2Old, think I am as well, lol.
But no I am not in SoCal I am in Florida at the moment. I say it that way because I am trying to get out of this H...hole.

For me this is also a BionX issue because I can not afford another four grand to replace my bike. As a Disabled Vet on a VERY limited income and little to no help from the VA. "you're a paraplegic, get use to it." They will spend $150,000 to make me knew KAFO's every couple years and $60,000 each year to replace the lattigo straps and stirrups but won't help with a Tadpole style recumbent trike. It just does't make sence to me.

BionX, if indeed are going out of business needs to release the ownership of the source to make it open source. This is only my opinion.

Thanks everyone!

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by towodi63m » Aug 16 2018 8:47am

Chalo wrote:
Aug 15 2018 5:24pm
towodi63m wrote:
Aug 15 2018 3:24pm
So walk a Mile in my shoes before you just give a snide comment.
It wasn't meant to be snide. Sorry if it came across that way. My points were,

1) the only thing really wrong with Bionx systems is that they were intentionally designed to be proprietary and resistant to modification, and

2) it's probably not worth your time to try to revive the system you have. The motor, maybe. But a controller and BMS that will only work when paired with each other? To hell with that.

Most e-bike motor systems are not closed like Bionx. So you can replace, modify, upgrade as you so choose.

For what it's worth, I have a similar issue with NuVinci hubs that I use. They're great as long as they work, but the manufacturer assumed that any and all internal service would be be done by them. So there are no service manuals, special tools, or necessary fluids available, and now the manufacturer who had those things is gone.
That great, but with one battery that works, my short range, and one that now does not, my long range, I'm sort of stuck. The long range battery is what I used to get me home, because if the short range got me there then the long range even using a bit more assistance would always get me back.

I guess I will check out a new front hub system that I can use the higher amp battery with. Any suggestions? Also how will I be able to charge the 36 volt battery without a Bms attached? And with what charging method. It might just be easier to wire the long range cells into the short range battery along with its cells. Wouldnt that work. Just solder the leads from the LR cells to the BMS where the leads of the SR cells are soldered onto the BMS. This, with my limited knowledge, should just boost the amperage of the SR battery, is that correct? It would then have both the SR cells and LR cells attached to the working BMS.

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Voltron » Aug 16 2018 8:59am

You can charge the battery straight of the charger (bulk charging) but need to occasionally check to see if the cells are still balanced. And yes, you can parallel up the leads.. But just be careful about protecting the wires afterwards again pinch shorts.
This would effectively make it into one larger amp hour battery.

And when bike manufacturers send out an army of lobbyists to get fat government contracts like the medical industry does, then you might get your bike.

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 16 2018 3:54pm

Possible, but each trike would be expensive as they are now, so the VA will/would limit who gets one so he and most other Vets would still be in the same situation .
a much better solution is to find Engineering Students and People who want to help Veterans , design ( Open Source ) two different recumbent trikes

1) Delta Design trike ( two wheels in back one in front ) that has a long wheelbase, a much more upright seating position, and full suspension of at least 100-140mm of travel on all wheels. A Delta trike should be designed to be able to lean into corners, this can be achieved easily by making a swing arm with suspension shock on each of the back wheels.

2) Tadpole Design, with more upright seating so as to prevent much of the road shock and vibration from entering the neck right where the laidback recumbent trikes/bikes have that problem. When in a more upright seating position you can put more and better foam and gel padding in the seat and lower back area.
Full suspension on all wheels as well.

Such a design can be made with a plug/lug and tube design, that would make it very easy to buy tubes from your local business that sells Metal Tubes/Sheets , etc.
Or to put it another way look at how the old bikes were made , with lugs and tubes
Even the early Tesla Car that I saw the chassis of was made this way, it had no welding , all done with Lugs and Tubes / Metal, that was bonded together. When a car that goes over 100 mph can do this , a bicycle can surly be made this way as well.
Voltron wrote:
Aug 16 2018 8:59am

And when bike manufacturers send out an army of lobbyists to get fat government contracts like the medical industry does, then you might get your bike.
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Aug 16 2018 4:29pm, edited 1 time in total.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 16 2018 4:03pm

Where in Florida are you ?

If you can stand the Humidity then the middle of the state is a pleasant place to live,
However if you are tired of the Humidity and/or want to get to a location with a better VA Hospital, then I understand.
BTW the V.A. will help with housing, if you do not already know about it.


towodi63m wrote:
Aug 16 2018 8:26am

But no I am not in SoCal I am in Florida at the moment. I say it that way because I am trying to get out of this H...hole.

As a Disabled Vet on a VERY limited income and little to no help from the VA. "you're a paraplegic, get use to it." They will spend $150,000 to make me knew KAFO's every couple years and $60,000 each year to replace the lattigo straps and stirrups but won't help with a Tadpole style recumbent trike. It just does't make sence to me.

BionX, if indeed are going out of business needs to release the ownership of the source to make it open source. This is only my opinion.

Thanks everyone!
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 16 2018 4:19pm

I do not have enough patience to read this whole thread , so here is a short / simple answer

If you already have a battery, it should already have a BMS in it .
If it does not have a BMS on/in the battery case with the cells, all you have to do is keep a eye on your voltage while you are at the mid point onwards on any ride.
I put a piece of tape on the Display with the voltage that I want to not go any lower than , and compare that to what the display says.

If you already have a working and good battery, you can just forget about the BionX system and get a cheep hub motor and controller and display , from any number of trusted vendors. There are about 4-6 that are well used by E.S. Members with good results.
( I would only use a vendor that you can call on the phone or e-mail and get any advice you need )
Another option is to get a MId-Drive motor if you will be moving to a location with hills or mountains .
The cheep ones that are getting more attention these days are the
TSDZ2 and the even newer IingBei , also called the EBBSDO2 by one of the sellers that is doing some improvements on the software for that motor .
The Befang BBSo2 is another option, the two listed above are newer designs though so have some improvements if that is important enough for you.

If you are wanting a Hub Motor , I can list the popular ones that many E.S. Members are using on a seperate reply.
towodi63m wrote:
Aug 16 2018 8:47am

I guess I will check out a new front hub system that I can use the higher amp battery with. Any suggestions? Also how will I be able to charge the 36 volt battery without a Bms attached? And with what charging method. It might just be easier to wire the long range cells into the short range battery along with its cells. Wouldnt that work. Just solder the leads from the LR cells to the BMS where the leads of the SR cells are soldered onto the BMS. This, with my limited knowledge, should just boost the amperage of the SR battery, is that correct? It would then have both the SR cells and LR cells attached to the working BMS.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by wturber » Aug 16 2018 4:22pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Aug 16 2018 3:54pm

Even the early Tesla Car that I saw the chassis of was made this way, it had no welding , all done with Lugs and Tubes / Metal, that was bonded together. When a car that goes over 100 mph can do this , a bicycle can surly be made this way as well.
My Trek 1400 (early 90s) is still doing fine with its bonded aluminum frame. I think they used internal lugs to give it a seamless look.

Dr. Bass used to sell torque arms that were to be bonded to your bike's dropouts. As I recall, he posted some rather impressive videos demonstrating the strength of the specified adhesive (3M DP-420 - not ordinary epoxy). I've not heard of those bonds ever failing.

"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Voltron » Aug 16 2018 4:25pm

Sometimes it's worth reading back a few posts anyway... as the guy asking that latest question already explained nicely a few times why that short simple answer wasn't going to work for him...

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by ScooterMan101 » Aug 16 2018 4:35pm

Well I did read back enough to where he said ... " I guess I will check out a new front hub system that I can use the higher amp battery with. "

He really does not need to change anything on a battery pack, he just needs to buy a 36 volt hub motor or 36 volt mid-drive.

I do not want to see him get a high speed/low torque hub motor and then move to an area with mountains/steep hills.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Voltron » Aug 16 2018 7:01pm

I know you're helping... He just has special circumstances that make that a last resort.


Hey Towodi..you might want to start a separate post on just the one question so it inst lumped in will all the other Bionx stuff to avoid the random answer thing.

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by amberwolf » Aug 16 2018 11:12pm

Better would be to ask a moderator or admin to split off this troubleshooting discussion from the thread (which is a different topic anyway); perhaps leaving a link here in this thread to point to the other for anyone that coudln't find it.

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Syonyk » Aug 17 2018 8:27pm

towodi63m wrote:
Aug 16 2018 8:26am
For me this is also a BionX issue because I can not afford another four grand to replace my bike.
BionX, from the perspective of the United States, is dead and gone. Period. You get what you get out of your batteries and the rest of the system, and when they die, if you can't get still working parts, you design something else, because BionX is closed source, proprietary, and almost deliberately difficult to work on. The BionX BMS is the only way you get state of charge information out of a battery, and things like regen rely on the BMS as well (this is why regen won't work near full charge).

There's some small efforts to reverse engineer it well enough to provide a compatible replacement, but I don't know how any of them are going (I've got a new kid, so my progress is more or less stopped for a while).
BionX, if indeed are going out of business needs to release the ownership of the source to make it open source. This is only my opinion.
They won't release ownership. Nor will the new owners of it. They literally don't care about customers out of warranty, haven't for a decade, and I see no reason the new ownership will suddenly decide to change that.

If BionX is literally your only option, you're hosed. Sorry. Sucks, but that's the downsides of a closed system like that. Or pick up the reverse engineering skills to build your own compatible replacements.
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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by towodi63m » Aug 19 2018 2:22pm

Voltron wrote:
Aug 16 2018 8:59am
And when bike manufacturers send out an army of lobbyists to get fat government contracts like the medical industry does, then you might get your bike.
Thanks for the info Voltron! I REALLY do appreciate it. You could really have no idea how much it means to me to be able to ride.

I don't understand what you are meaning by this. Could you explain further? Please!

Thanks,
Steve

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by Voltron » Aug 19 2018 2:45pm

Unfortunately this time nothing helpful. I just meant that medical industry uses lobbyists and kickbacks to sell a lot of overpriced medical gear to the military... Thus leading to doctors recommending lots of overpriced gear to patients instead of alternate treatments.

The bike industry doesn't have the same political reach and deep pockets, which is unfortunate as many like you could be leading such improved lives. Sorry to be unhelpful...

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Re: The end of BionX?

Post by towodi63m » Aug 19 2018 6:07pm

Hello ScooterMan101,
I am in the Gainesville area of FL. You know the UF Gators. I personally don't like the gators because i was raised here and living here they are sort of shoved down your throat. Thank you and yes I knew they helped with housing(if you are homeless.)

I would have rather had them help me with a Tadpole recumbent trike than housing. offering to pay for a hand trike but not allowing me to have something that would help me recover use of my legs makes no sense at all.

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Aug 16 2018 4:03pm
Where in Florida are you ?

If you can stand the Humidity then the middle of the state is a pleasant place to live,
However if you are tired of the Humidity and/or want to get to a location with a better VA Hospital, then I understand.
BTW the V.A. will help with housing, if you do not already know about it.


towodi63m wrote:
Aug 16 2018 8:26am

But no I am not in SoCal I am in Florida at the moment. I say it that way because I am trying to get out of this H...hole.

As a Disabled Vet on a VERY limited income and little to no help from the VA. "you're a paraplegic, get use to it." They will spend $150,000 to make me knew KAFO's every couple years and $60,000 each year to replace the lattigo straps and stirrups but won't help with a Tadpole style recumbent trike. It just does't make sence to me.

BionX, if indeed are going out of business needs to release the ownership of the source to make it open source. This is only my opinion.

Thanks everyone!

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