Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by markz » Apr 03 2018 6:19pm

They are very slow and very heavy. And they are hard to remove and replace.
Thats the dilemma with moto rims and moto tires.
Also can't use V-brakes on them neither, so have to go disc brakes on the motor. At this point weight does not matter too too much to me. But I'd prefer stout rim and tires with brand name spokes that are not too too thick.

I've been pondering the Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires with Smart Guard, which I may put up front, with that Halo SAS rim. Then if I ever want to swap back to mtb rim, I got a good rim.

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by Chalo » Apr 03 2018 7:30pm

markz wrote:
Apr 03 2018 12:56pm
Halo SAS rims look interesting, disc brakes not V-brake.
Halo SAS rims are entirely rim brake compatible.
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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by orange streak » Apr 03 2018 7:36pm

markz wrote:
Apr 03 2018 12:56pm
Halo SAS rims look interesting, disc brakes not V-brake.
Chain Reaction Cycle is out of stock at $65

http://www.treefortbikes.com/product/33 ... c-Rim.html

I am still going with moto rims myself.
Wow that wheel has eyelets with double wall. So i belive one the uses for eyelets is that the eylet ring sits on the second wall to give the support from the tension put down by the nipple head?

Reaching that threshold advances you from double wall to triplewall or perhaps steel. From bicycle rim to aluminum moto rim. & a friend overly suggests to go to steel moto rims & use 10 guage spokes becuase the rim can accept them. A pending question of mine is i heard something about 12g double butted spokes?, maybe that was for moped only? Even after getting a somewhat decent wheel built with heavy guage spokes i will retighten them after 500+ miles to make sure its maintained & all the nipple heads seat well into the washers i finally found.

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by Chalo » Apr 03 2018 7:48pm

orange streak wrote:
Apr 03 2018 7:36pm
& a friend overly suggests to go to steel moto rims & use 10 guage spokes becuase the rim can accept them.
Pound for pound, a steel rim will always be weaker than an aluminum rim. It will also always be single wall, so it will be weaker in that way compared to a double walled aluminum rim. Yes, you can double the strength of your wheels that way-- by making them 10x as heavy and only compatible with really slow heavy tires. Not worth it.

The failure you showed from your wheel was caused by spokes that were too thick. If you continue to make that mistake, you'll continue to have problems. 14-15ga on the freewheel side and 14-17ga on the left side results in the most reliable wheel under heavy loads. You can use 14ga straight, 13ga, or whatever, but you'll only reduce your wheels' ability to withstand heavy loads.

12ga spokes have to be almost twice as tight as straight 14ga spokes to give equal support to the rim. That's why they cause it to crack-- the rim is not designed to take that much tension. Motorcycle rims are, but that's why they're pig heavy.
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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by orange streak » Apr 03 2018 9:02pm

I appreciate the advice given for spoke guage for bicycle rims, & dont know if width of rim changes spoke sizes. I am taking my chances becuase my wheel is almost complete. Now after this season i might goes as far as a aluminum moto cross rim & wider hub. I know the only other option not mentioned being triple wall 24 inch bike rim, i just like rim strength & have been studying it for some time. After the 110 pound load of batteries, the deep large cargo box is bolted to the frame and loaded with 60+ pounds, & to top it off all this gets riden on rough roads or at speeds of 30 to 40mph. My next wheel build might as well be light aluminum 1.6" wide mc rim. Only two hubs i found will work for me is a v10 hadley with 14mmm axle or this one with axle adpter to fit dropouts and a screw on disk brake adapter. Both 160mm wide for strength & to help chain move over properly i hope to clear the wider tires & keep chain straight on gears.
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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Apr 03 2018 10:49pm

Too bad that bike doesn't have a beefy full suspension with dual coil shocks on the rear, it would probably soak up potholes and driveway curbs and laugh them off even with the weight of the battery(s).
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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by orange streak » Apr 04 2018 2:11am

Ill admit i love my new front end setup (expensive) but no supension was my choice. Everything brand new, with forks, hub, 21 x 1.6 aluminum rim & 3 inch tire (would of prefered 2.75" wide. Has 12 guage spokes builder told me, & has double rim washers to keep the spokes fit right. This baby is going to have a 255mm rotor up front with hydrualic caliper. 😉 I just learned or realised you can use axle spacers in the back to fit a smaller hub wheel, it would be a spare wheel so i dont stop rolling, & you would use a space adapter to reach the disk brake caliper if you had to once dropouts are widened. Im convinced to widen my 135mm droupout to 160mm at a later date, but i hope it is safe?, spreaded with all thread rod, washer & nuts.
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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by Chalo » Apr 04 2018 11:20am

orange streak wrote:
Apr 03 2018 9:02pm
I know the only other option not mentioned being triple wall 24 inch bike rim, i just like rim strength & have been studying it for some time.
"Triple wall" is a marketing term, not an engineering term. The only important distinction to be made is between a rim that's like a channel (single wall) and a rim that's like a tube (double wall). There's more structural value in a rim with a deep section than there is in a rim with multiple hollows. And of course a rim having a larger section, greater weight, or stronger material matters a lot more than how many cavities it has in its extrusion.
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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by orange streak » Apr 04 2018 4:53pm

I try not to take my anger out on people or in posts but this bike shop cant even call me back to tell me exactly what washers they need or what to send them. #10 finish washers for 12 guage nipples or the link i sent them. Im getting depressed, this is my work bike & everyone is wondering where i am to continue business. They sold me the rim telling me it will & ready to work with 12guage spokes, no the shop tells me the have to drill rim out, now i doubt they even want to do that & might not feel like doing business with me. One person srews up & cuases a cataclysm of bad events to happen to a noob. I want a spare wheel from lynn custom motor bikes to just have but you cant even call her to get anything planned out. Life sucks right now, it makes you finally want throw up your hands as you wait out days with no answers, or work progress done & say i quite everybody, its a real low moment getting poorer by the day.. 40-45mm steel black rim, i sure would like it if i could get it.

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by orange streak » Apr 04 2018 5:20pm

Chalo wrote:
Apr 04 2018 11:20am
orange streak wrote:
Apr 03 2018 9:02pm
I know the only other option not mentioned being triple wall 24 inch bike rim, i just like rim strength & have been studying it for some time.
"Triple wall" is a marketing term, not an engineering term. The only important distinction to be made is between a rim that's like a channel (single wall) and a rim that's like a tube (double wall). There's more structural value in a rim with a deep section than there is in a rim with multiple hollows. And of course a rim having a larger section, greater weight, or stronger material matters a lot more than how many cavities it has in its extrusion.
Chalo youve made the best points as far as normal bike rims go with structual integrity ive come to accept & ive seen some of your prevous posts. Im just chancing with what i have now. But im gravitating away from most bike rims unless steel or made heavy duty. I dont care about weight as much becuase its a low gear robust mid drive & it just takes off briskly with 26/27 inch outter diameter wheels.

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by Chalo » Apr 04 2018 6:27pm

orange streak wrote:
Apr 04 2018 5:20pm
But im gravitating away from most bike rims unless steel or made heavy duty.
That's one approach, but be warned that of all the steel bicycle rims I've used, the only ones that are as strong as good aluminum rims are from Worksman Cycles of NYC. I believe those are made by Sun Metal, which is a motorcycle rim manufacturer. They're extremely heavy, with dimples at the spoke holes. They're drilled for enormous spokes (which don't stay tight), so I have to use sturdy nipple washers to prevent pull through. They don't play well with rim brakes because their sides are round.

Image

Every other steel bicycle rim I've used or serviced has been weaker than a comparable sized aluminum rim, and puckers at a lower spoke tension.

Lately, the strongest rims I've been using have been Halo SAS, Weinmann DHL42, and Weinmann DHL65. The 65mm ones are fantastic if you can fit them in your frame. The 42mm ones offer cross-rim lacing for improved bracing angle.
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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by markz » Apr 04 2018 7:17pm

That fat bike Wienmann DHL65 looks good
http://www.weinmanntek.com/product/12/37
In stock here - http://www.bikewagon.com/weinmann-rim-a ... -32h-black

I may just snag it.

dhl42 instock - https://www.niagaracycle.com/categories ... x12g-black has a 528erd which is very close to my Crystalyte DH from Justin.

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by Raisedeyebrows » Apr 04 2018 10:23pm

How about a set of those "reserve" carbon rims Santa Cruz is offering now, the ones in the video where the pro rider attempted to destroy them? They appear nearly indestructible, probably not cheap either.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VfjjiHGuHoc
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Every trip made with electric bike is one less car trip, saves money, no toxic fumes, less noise, less impact on roads.

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by orange streak » Apr 05 2018 1:33pm

Surley im a fan of of 42 to 45mm wide rimes. 38mm is sub pare ok for weight distribution. Custommotor bicycles.com is sure not a place in my experience to have anything custom made or ordered with colors, or choice of rim with needed hub width to work for me. So i get a email when i ask for her to get intouch by call directly instead. You might get to purchase a that super heavy duty 45mm rim but have to find someone to build it the right away for sure. Im letting the shop n the city stew one more day over my wheel build before asking for it back to send to some other builder perhaps. I only know how to tighten some spokes evenly & dish a wheel to center. Its fate against me, id be better off perhaps just geting the right hub with to clear my chain from tire by putting $90 into a trusted 40mm wide motor cross rim & trusted friend. Im so getting my way & tired of down time & broken wheels. It breaks your heart how everybody treats you in life.

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by markz » Apr 08 2018 5:04pm

Well my Crystalyte from Justin is now toast, the sidewalls at the mating section broke. Since its Sunday I am out of action until tomorrow for spokes, got lots of 36h rims around. Found a Weinmann DHL42 which is a reasonable price. But my instinct is to go motorcycle rim. Lots of choices locally whether from used motorcycle parts stores or online classifieds. Already have a 16x1.60 with Shinko 3.00 and I really hope it fits, fabricating rear dropout plates from 26" to what I need. I will give it a go, ride it hard and see what comes of it.

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by orange streak » Apr 17 2018 1:27pm

A UPDATE: If i can not find the hub for my needs with enough width & have a 14mm solid axle then im better off now with a guy who i know who is going to make me a custom hub, maybe with better bearing. So glad i had this contact fabricator.

Now im back on track to make a 21 inch aluminum motorcycle rim. What motorcycle spoke guage is best for rim? Factory makes them with 10g spokes or should i go with 12g for flex Im not thinking of using bicycle spokes this time. It wont see a motorcycle wieghtload or flex under as much load. Thats all i need to know now. Going to make the hub chainline clear up to a 3 inch tire.

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by markz » Apr 17 2018 5:00pm

12G is the way to go!

Where you buying your spokes from?

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by orange streak » Apr 17 2018 6:28pm

markz wrote:
Apr 17 2018 5:00pm
12G is the way to go!

Where you buying your spokes from?
Ok ill take you word for 12g. I dont know yet what spokes brand or where to get them, may leave that up to the wheel builder. But i heard they make motorcycle spokes swaged (double butted) some just do it on the drive side. Wonder if you can still get these?

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by markz » Apr 17 2018 7:08pm

I called around to custom motorcycle builders and they had no clue where to get spokes custom cut and reamed. I also went to motorcycle dealers and the parts guys had no clue. Motorcycle rims have larger nipple holes so if you go to a 13 guage then the nipples would be too small, a way around it is dishing out washers. Holmeshobby website has spokes and 17" moto rims. Of course there is the generic ebay spokes from oversea's. Or buying the Hozan or Cyclo reamers for a couple hundred bucks. The only I place I know of that does 12G spokes in Sapim is a local store, who have cut a few sets for me. Message me if you want their details.
orange streak wrote:
Apr 17 2018 6:28pm
markz wrote:
Apr 17 2018 5:00pm
12G is the way to go!

Where you buying your spokes from?
Ok ill take you word for 12g. I dont know yet what spokes brand or where to get them, may leave that up to the wheel builder. But i heard they make motorcycle spokes swaged (double butted) some just do it on the drive side. Wonder if you can still get these?

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by orange streak » Apr 17 2018 9:01pm

Looks like ill have to make a big ordeal about it. The custom machined hub ill have made will have to work with the spokes i need. I know some people who use up to 10g spokes, i think they are bicycle. But i will get this resolved. My hub will be awsome & it will get close to looking like this.
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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by amberwolf » Apr 18 2018 2:34am

Bicycle spokes go up to 13g realistically; maybe 12g with really good rims/hubs. Beyond that, stuff like 10g and larger, theyre really moped or motorcycle spokes, in that the rims and hubs needed for them are not generally found in bicycle stuff.

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by amberwolf » Apr 18 2018 2:43am

markz wrote:
Apr 17 2018 7:08pm
I called around to custom motorcycle builders and they had no clue where to get spokes custom cut and reamed. I also went to motorcycle dealers and the parts guys had no clue.
They dont sound like very useful poeple.

5 seconds on google with a partial quote of you above found various places

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&n ... kes+custom

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by madin88 » Apr 18 2018 3:24am

amberwolf wrote:
Apr 18 2018 2:34am
Bicycle spokes go up to 13g realistically; maybe 12g with really good rims/hubs. Beyond that, stuff like 10g and larger, theyre really moped or motorcycle spokes, in that the rims and hubs needed for them are not generally found in bicycle stuff.
There are new Spokes from Sapim called "E-strong". They are 12/13GA butted, and aside from normal bicylce nipples there are also "large" nipples available (for 5,5mm spoke holes).
Should be a good choice if the hub and rim can take the tension forces.

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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by orange streak » Apr 18 2018 3:54pm

Hey guy my new tempory 26 inch wheel is here from the city bike shop. Wow, this is real 12g spokes. My front wheel was clearly not 12g this is. Hope the triple wall bomshell rim survives the season. A shame i dont know where the bike shop sourced the spokes or nipple washers, which they can say thats what the spokes cost $2 each!, but i didnt get proof. Has a 14mm solid axle just how i like. Shop labor & parts came to $208. They had to drill the rim out to fit the spokes, i had not planned on that. So the total for this wheel is $251!, not counting the hub i provided & disk rotor installed. I dont spend that much on bicycle wheels, & i wouldnt want to do it again. Ill ride it some hundreds of miles & give it a spoke tension to make sure it stays together.

On the custom hub project the builder says he can get custom stainless 11g motorcycle spokes but still require nipple washers for fitment. Its only slightly cheaper with 10g bicycle spokes as the other option to build the 21 inch motorcross wheel & they fit perfect with no washers i hear.
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Re: Stongest tandem ebike wheel build help

Post by orange streak » Apr 18 2018 3:57pm

Hear is a close up. Also 8 speed freewheel im forcing in costs money also.
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