A new fast and stealth cargo ebike

I have been driving my blue monster for 6 years: https://imgur.com/a/LXcnI
Besides this behemoth I also have 2 fast ebikes with bafang BBS02 motors.

But I want a fast and stealthy cargobike. The behemoth is too slow (25km/h) and inefficient.
The fast ebikes are fun, But I need some cargo capacity.

The idea: buy and motorise Yuba supermarche: http://yubabikes.com/cargobikestore/supermarche
Or build a similar cargobike.

I am thinking about dual bafang swxh hub motors in the 20" wheels. Running them at 500W each.
1000W on flat ground should get me 45km/h I hope. I already get 45km/h with 750W bafang mid drive.
Recommended controllers and voltage to run to reach this speed?
Other stealthy hub motor recommendations?

Can I run a dual motor/ dual controller setup with cycleanalist V3?

I have no hills to climb at all and nice flat paved bicyle pads. Hence no real need for suspension.
I actually replaced my previous full suspension mid drive bike for a hardtail.

Motor options so far:
Dual EZEE 350rpm (A little expensive) http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/motors/ezee20.html
Dual MXUS XF15 440RPM , Would it hurt to run the high rpm 36V version at 48V? https://tinyurl.com/yb8r2n6a
Dual Bafang SWX02 RPM at 48V? https://nl.aliexpress.com/store/product/36-V-48-V-350-W-500-W-bafang-8fun-SWX02-SWX02D-SWX02C-Gear-Hub-Motor/738588_32835021876.html?spm=a2g0z.12010612.0.0.4939b862nzWOzL
Dual conhis 350W motor? Seems to be available with low winding count for high speed. http://www.conhismotor.com/ProductShow.asp?id=90

In 20" wheel, you will need a high rpm to hit that speed. One motor all you need, a larger, faster wind direct drive rear motor will do. Run it on 1500-2000w. 48v, or even 60v. 1000w will not be enough for a heavy bike at that speed.

This bike was made by welding an additional 9 inches to lengthen it. with the 26" wheel it hits about 32 mph on 48v, 37 on 64v. Carries cargo fine, tows a trailer great. goes pretty fast, the motor is quiet, and hidden. But on 48v, its running 2000w.

But nobody thinks I'm really pedaling this at 30 mph, they know Its a motor even if they don't know me.

Thank you for the input.

Some missing info as to why I tought about geared motors.
I would like something stealthy I can drive at 25km/h inside the city limits and open up on the long bicycle pads city too city.
You can see a 100 different ebikes here every day. But I'm the only one with a big direct drive. Everything else has a small geared hub or a mid drive. Therefore the big DD draws attention.

The point is not disguising the fact it's an ebike. The point is disguising it is a 45km/h capable ebike.

2) It would be ideal if I could drive this bicycle in the marina over the pontoons up too my boat.
But then It would have to be able to do a very short but very steep hill to get back up to ground level.
The ramp in question: http://www.artesroegiers.be/UPLOADS/IMGS-NIEUWS/thumb_nieuws-item-569.jpg
Visible at the right of the photo. Off course getting off and help push is an option but not half as much fun.

I agree with Dan that a longtail bike would be a better choice overall if you want a fast cargo bike. I have a cycle-truck type front loader with a slightly extended wheelbase, and it works great at low to moderate speeds. At higher speeds, over about 35 kph, it rides too harshly to make sense for routine use. No matter how long or heavy the bike, if you sit right on top of one of the wheels without suspension, you'll get beat up at higher speeds.

Longtail layout places the seat in the middle of the wheels, for the smoothest possible ride and a lower moment of inertia in the pitch axis. It's sort of like having mechanical suspension without the many drawbacks of mechanical suspension. Longtail layout lends itself well to full size wheels, which improve ride quality greatly compared to smaller wheels, and reduce rolling resistance.

A capable mid drive like Bafang BBSHD would give you the speed capability you seek along with strong climbing. The tradeoff there is increased maintenance and repairs. BBSHD looks understated enough to pass for a regular e-bike, where the more powerful and cheaper Cyclone mid drive does not.

If you want to use a hub motor instead, the MAC geared motor has enough power capability for the performance you want while being significantly smaller than comparable direct drive motors. Put a big disc brake on one side and a big 14-34 freewheel on the other to make it seem smaller than it is.

Chalo said:

I agree with Dan that a longtail bike would be a better choice overall if you want a fast cargo bike. I have a cycle-truck type front loader with a slightly extended wheelbase, and it works great at low to moderate speeds. At higher speeds, over about 35 kph, it rides too harshly to make sense for routine use. No matter how long or heavy the bike, if you sit right on top of one of the wheels without suspension, you'll get beat up at higher speeds.

Click to expand...

The mac motor seems like a good idea. I'm looking at them now.
A dual MAC setup would make a beast of an ebike that doens't look too bad.
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&motor=MMAC6T&batt=B4823_AC&wheel=20i&frame=cust_0.6_0.005&motor_b=MMAC6T&batt_b=B4823_AC&wheel_b=20i&frame_b=cust_0.6_0.005&add=true&blue=Lbs&hp=0
A single MAC might overheat at 1000W continous.
I have 2 ebikes with BBS02 I like them But they are maintenance intensive when driven hard. (chains and gears barely last 3k km)

I prefer the front loading cargo because of the lower gravity point. I'ts easier too load the toolboxes and engine spare it will carry.
As far as gettin beat up at speed. I've driven a friends mid motor bullit at 40km/h and it's as stable as my regular ebike.
Of course I wouldn't be able to do those speeds on beat up roads or bumps. But luckily most bicycle pads here are smoother then a runway.

Did you end up building this up yet?

I’ve been thinking about a dual hub motor front loader too. For a while I was thinking Supermarche, but when I learned that dual Phaserunners will be fine with different sized wheels, I’ve broadened to thinking about Bullitt, Cetma, Metrtofeits, etc.

The stickiest thing I’ve run into so far with the Supermarche or Bullitt is that the cassette version of the rear Mac motor is 138mm spacing, and that seems unlikely to fit on either bike. I got a quote of $250 to make custom dropouts for the Bullitt.

So I’m especially curious if you managed to fit the Mac motor on the back of a front loader.

No I haven't.
You are right about the spacing. I would like to check beforehand. I have acces to a bullit I could measure.
But there are no supermarche's sold in my country so far according to the importer :-(

The supermarche has an 8 speed casette. Perhaps a screw on 5 speed would give enough room.

Regarding dual geared hub drives in different wheel sizes.
My understanding is it is very possible becasue of the mechanical freewheel function of geared hubs.
But unless the difference in wheel size is the same as the difference in number of windings they will never be loaded equally.

Which is good if you only want to use the small wheel motor for accelaration and hill climbing assistance. But bad if you want to use the power for speed.

Yeah, the freewheel version of the Mac is 135, so it would be cool.

My understanding is that the Phaserunner produces a certain amount of torque for a given throttle voltage, so two different motors in different sized wheels will be producing the same torque, even if that doesn’t mean the same RPM.

I have mixed feelings about the Supermarche, I’ve test ridden one a few times. I loved it the first time and I’ve liked it less each time after. My wife and I bought a Packster last year that mostly belongs to my wife now, and being used to that, the SM just feels a bit low end.

Have you seen this monster?

https://www.facebook.com/ertyl.dendur/media_set?set=a.10216804479203788.1073741845.1217539512&type=1&l=f46ef01335

kevinscargobike said:

My understanding is that the Phaserunner produces a certain amount of torque for a given throttle voltage, so two different motors in different sized wheels will be producing the same torque, even if that doesn’t mean the same RPM.

Click to expand...

The same torque equals more thrust/less speed in a smaller wheel, less thrust/more speed in a bigger wheel. Torque is force times radius, so when you mess with the radius, you change the force.

The Phaserunner software gets configured with the wheel size, so maybe that’s where the magic is - really I’m just taking Grin’s word for it that mismatched RPM/v is ok w that controller.

kevinscargobike said:

The Phaserunner software gets configured with the wheel size, so maybe that’s where the magic is - really I’m just taking Grin’s word for it that mismatched RPM/v is ok w that controller.

Click to expand...

Grin's word is 100% solid!

kevinscargobike said:

The Phaserunner software gets configured with the wheel size, so maybe that’s where the magic is - really I’m just taking Grin’s word for it that mismatched RPM/v is ok w that controller.

Click to expand...

What is meant by that is that the mismatched KV's and wheel size can still have perfectly equal power share at lower speeds just fine off the same throttle signal. You don't have to worry about the faster motor doing almost all the work like you do with a conventional PWM controller.

As an example, with a voltage/PWM throttle, if you have a 10T MAC motor and an 8T MAC motor both in 26" rims in the conditions below (5% hill 50% throttle) you see that the faster 8T motor is doing 400 watts while the 10T motor only puts out 29 watts
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&motor_b=MMAC8T&add=true&blue=Lbs&throt_b=50&throt=50&grade=5&motor=MMAC10T&batt=B5216_GA&batt_b=B5216_GA

Exact same setup at 50% throttle with a torque based controller like the Phaserunner, and the division is much closer, in this case with the slower wind motor doing 250 watts while the faster 8T just does 200W
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&motor_b=MMAC8T&add=true&blue=Lbs&throt_b=14.5&throt=14.5&grade=5&motor=MMAC10T&batt=B5216_GA&batt_b=B5216_GA&cont_b=cust_40_80_0.02_T&cont=cust_40_80_0.02_T&autothrot=true&autothrot_b=true
(click the graph cursor to the 26 kph point as in the first example to see)

If you set the max phase currents or the throttle mapping so that the 8T motor has 25% more phase current for a given throttle signal than the 10T hub, then the power share is a perfect 50:50 split, right up to 42 kph
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&motor_b=MMAC8T&add=true&blue=Lbs&throt_b=13.1&throt=13.1&grade=5&motor=MMAC10T&batt=B5216_GA&batt_b=B5216_GA&cont_b=cust_40_100_0.02_T&cont=cust_40_80_0.02_T&autothrot=true&autothrot_b=true


To share power equally at the top end of the speed range then you'd still want two hub motors with KV values that are in roughly inverse proportion to the wheel diameter so that they have a similar unloaded road speed. Or you can just use the weakening feature to tweak this top end rpm on the slower motor in order to get a match.

The wheel diameter setting in the Phaserunner software doesn't come into play at all.

Chalo said:

The same torque equals more thrust/less speed in a smaller wheel, less thrust/more speed in a bigger wheel. Torque is force times radius, so when you mess with the radius, you change the force.

Click to expand...

This is totally correct and adds a fun twist.

To the OP: If you are doing a dual motor drive with one smaller and one larger diameter wheel of the same motor series, then for the best efficiency you WANT the smaller motor to be producing more power than the larger wheel. In this case an equal torque share on both motors will do that naturally. If instead you split things so that the smaller and larger wheels have the same power, then the motor in the larger wheel would be running at higher torque and worse efficiency than the smaller one. You would gain more than you loose by shifting some of that power over to the smaller wheel motor.

What did you end up going with?

I am thinking of getting a Supermarche and putting an extra BBSHD that I have on it. I'm checking on the bottom bracket width with them now. Any problems with the smaller wheels? It's just going to be for riding around my daughter and her groceries. She eats a lot!

Thanks for any suggestions/help guys.

The problem with the Supermarche is the angle of the chain stays, the way the drive side one comes down keeps you from sliding on an aftermarket mid drive.

I dunno about the original poster, but I ended up finding a good deal on a used Cetma and just this week got a Mac 8t / Phaserunner setup going in the front wheel.

A front hub motor on a front loading cargo bike is a little more challenging to handle than a mid drive, but I feel like I’ve gotten used to it fairly quickly.

For now I’m waiting to see if I ever run into a situation where I actually need a second motor, since my used bike came with a belt drive and internal hub, and that’s something I’ve always wanted to try.

kevinscargobike said:

The problem with the Supermarche is the angle of the chain stays, the way the drive side one comes down keeps you from sliding on an aftermarket mid drive.

I dunno about the original poster, but I ended up finding a good deal on a used Cetma and just this week got a Mac 8t / Phaserunner setup going in the front wheel.

A front hub motor on a front loading cargo bike is a little more challenging to handle than a mid drive, but I feel like I’ve gotten used to it fairly quickly.

For now I’m waiting to see if I ever run into a situation where I actually need a second motor, since my used bike came with a belt drive and internal hub, and that’s something I’ve always wanted to try.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your response! I never would have thought of that. Are you saying that the BBSHD chain ring would hit that driver side chain stay?

I guess I could do the same thing as you. Do you have a supplier for the front tire MAC/Phasrunner 20" setup (besides Paul)? I've had a MAC before and loved it an have been reading recently about the phaserunner pairing, which sounds like a dream.

The Cetma does look awesome. Nice that you found a used one. I would like to support the guy, but the price is a tad steep, although it can be had with a Nuvinci which is my dream drivetrain.

Do you have a photo of your bike???

I made a thread, but I haven't updated for a while, so it leaves off before the phaserunner and motor showed up:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94601&p=1393896#p1393896

Trailblazer said:

Are you saying that the BBSHD chain ring would hit that driver side chain stay?

Click to expand...

Maybe? I brought a Tsdz2 to a shop to see how it would fit, and it was the gearing to the inside of the chainring that made it fail. I think Yuba themselves told me that the Bafang drives don't fit. Or maybe it was an answered question on their website. It might be worth asking them.

Trailblazer said:

I guess I could do the same thing as you. Do you have a supplier for the front tire MAC/Phasrunner 20" setup (besides Paul)? I've had a MAC before and loved it an have been reading recently about the phaserunner pairing, which sounds like a dream.

Click to expand...

I bought the motor from EM3EV and the rest from Grin - I hear that Grin is testing out Mac motors - it would be a lot less work to get one that comes with Grin's connectors and does temperature properly out of the box.

Trailblazer said:

The Cetma does look awesome. Nice that you found a used one. I would like to support the guy, but the price is a tad steep, although it can be had with a Nuvinci which is my dream drivetrain.

Click to expand...

I wasn't in a rush, so it was nice to just watch craigslist for a while so that I'd get to know what's a good deal and what isn't.