Definative guide to generic controllers?

09Klr650

10 mW
Joined
Feb 25, 2018
Messages
23
Location
Ohio
Sorry if this has been discussed before. Is there a decent guide covering everything a person should/needs to know on the cookie-cutter generic ebike/scooter/moto motor controllers? Especially identifying and repairing common problems, common modifications/upgrades and wiring diagrams? For instance all the labels have a category called "booster". I have seen what appears to be ratios of 1:1 to 1:3. Is this for the pedal assist? I may also need to adjust the low voltage cutout for a typical 48V controller as I plan on a 12S setup (44.4V).

I can find bits and pieces scattered like diamonds in the mine but was hoping someone has already cut and polished some somewhere :)
 
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6241

Most genaric 48 Volt controllers come w/ LVC of 42 Volts which make 12S the best LiPoly match for Ebikes. These are the basic square wave controllers w/out a means to program the LVC. The newer sine wave controllers that "auto" read the pack Voltage can sometimes have problems w/ the 45.6 V (nom.) 12S pack.
If you are still planning your pack and how to charge it, you might want to search my posts, specificly, how to use large capacity bricks and bulk charge.
 
If you're shopping for a controller for a project, you're better off posting the project's specific needs and goals, so those knowledgeable about the various parts can help you pick the parts that will do the jobs you need them to.

There's a thread here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
where you can copy the questions from there, then paste them here into this thread, along with your answers, and we can see what would work.




Given there are at least tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of models of many "brands" of controllers out there, just in the "generic" stuff, I'm not sure it's even possible to make a definitive guide...and given the rate at which new ones show up, it probably couldn't be kept up to date.

It would also not be useful most of the time, as it'd be pretty rare for any specific model info to be needed by anyone; usually it's a new one that someone comes here with to get info on cuz the vendors don't really have much (or correct) info about them on their sale pages, and you find that out only *after* you get it (that it's different from what they advertised...and a replacement for a broken one (if you can get one) may well be different from that, too).


There *is* a lot of info here on ES, and elsewhere, but as you say its like mining to find it. :(

We do have a wiki, but there's not yet an article with all that info in one place there. You could always start one if you like. :)
 
motomech said:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6241

Most genaric 48 Volt controllers come w/ LVC of 42 Volts which make 12S the best LiPoly match for Ebikes.

If you are still planning your pack and how to charge it, you might want to search my posts, specificly, how to use large capacity bricks and bulk charge.

Interesting. I guess that makes sense as the cheap controllers are probably designed for use with SLA batteries instead of LIPO. I will take a look at your posts. I actually have (4) 10Ah 6S Multistar LIPOs on order. My intention is to create a 44.4V 20Ah pack. 2 parallel, then 2 series for ease of use, charging and expansion. Although I am torn between expanding to 30Ah by going 3 parallel, or going to 66.6V by putting another 2-pack in series.
 
amberwolf said:
If you're shopping for a controller for a project, you're better off posting the project's specific needs and goals, so those knowledgeable about the various parts can help you pick the parts that will do the jobs you need them to.

Given there are at least tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of models of many "brands" of controllers out there, just in the "generic" stuff, I'm not sure it's even possible to make a definitive guide...and given the rate at which new ones show up, it probably couldn't be kept up to date.

There *is* a lot of info here on ES, and elsewhere, but as you say its like mining to find it. :(

We do have a wiki, but there's not yet an article with all that info in one place there. You could always start one if you like. :)

Well, I already have a pretty decent feel for everything but figuring out about the controllers, but here I go.

Desired max speed on level ground: >18mph. This is a commuter and "get healthy" build, not a speed machine.
Desired max range at what cruising speed. 18-20 miles at anything over 12-15mph.
Preferred bike wheel size: I have a old but basically unused Schwinn Mesa with 26", plus I plan on buying a kickbike to switch it out on for the more fun weekend commutes. Quite a few are available with 26" front as well. So a front-wheel set-up at first with plenty of easy connectors.
Brake type of motor wheel: V-brake exist on the Mesa (but has the connection points for disc). I believe most mid-to-low end kickbikes are V-brake only without some sort of adapter. Probably not an issue at the speeds I want.
Rider weight: 330 and dropping :)
Terrain: City commute with low/moderate hills. Think "Central Ohio" and you will see what I mean.
Budget: Trying to do the entire thing under $500-$600 as I have the bike already. Just dropped $240 on (4) 10Ah 6S 22.2V Multistars and a B6AC charger on Hobbyking. So looking at sub-$200 for the typical generic 750-1000W 48V front-wheel kit. Plus I am eyeballing the Plano 1612 high 30cal ammo box for the battery assembly.

Also plan on buying some XT90 connectors, MT60s (wheel phase connectors), MT30s (wheel sensors) energy meter, BMS low-voltage alarms, and a few 10AWG in-line fuse kits (fuse 20A slow-blow for each parallel set of 2 packs, then a 30A on the total). Must wear protection after all :). And finally another +$50 or so for for a Mean Well CLG-150-48A for on-the-go charging. All it needs is the current turned down to minimum as 48V setting is pretty much where I want to go at 80%ish max charge on a 12S.

And if I can figure out one end from the other I may try my hand at editing some day!

Thanks.
 
My intention is to create a 44.4V 20Ah pack. 2 parallel, then 2 series for ease of use, charging and expansion. Although I am torn between expanding to 30Ah by going 3 parallel....
I run a 2S/2P Multistar 12S/20,000 mAh pack;

That's a 30 mile/plus range w/ moderate pedaling in the low 20's mph. Do you really need more range than that?
Desired max speed on level ground: >18mph. This is a commuter and "get healthy" build, not a speed machine.
Even using a low-speed motor(201 rpm @ 36 V rating), @ 12S LiPoly (45.6 V nom.) system will top out around 20 mph. That's just as well as 18 mph gets boring. Low 20's mph is the "sweet" spot, fast enough to be entertaining, but not so fast to get one in trouble. Remember, even a basic controller will have a 3-speed speed limiter.
Although I am torn between expanding to 30Ah by going 3 parallel, or going to 66.6V by putting another 2-pack in series
Not sure I understand where you are coming from on this one. First you state to you only want to go 18 mph, and here, you are talking about a very high Voltage system. It would change everything, certainly you would end up with a system way too fast for a hardtail. It will also add costs, for one thing, a 48V controller may not even handle that.
So looking at sub-$200 for the typical generic 750-1000W 48V front-wheel kit.
By that, I think you are referencing a direct drive 9C hub motor. Are you sure you want to put a Frisbee-sized motor on the frt. forks? Most of us who have built an "assist type" ebike use a smaller geared motor, way less weight swinging on the frt. end, stealthier, better free-wheeling and better performance on 36V/48V, especially climbing hills.
My very first build used a MXUS geared motor up frt.;
bicycle (1).jpg
I put many 1,000's of miles on that bike and I certainly would not have wanted a heavier, more powerful motor. On 48 Volts, there were times when the tire would spin, like taking off on a slight uphill when the pavement was damp. The light 2.2 Kg motor balanced the small "rack" 10 Ah battery nicely and overall the bike handled well.
When I went to a larger LiPoly pack, I put them into a Triangle frame bag;
100_0064.JPG
If one has an open triangle area, why not use it, handling will be much improved. The dedicated bag has been great, liteweight and durable, it's been money very well spent. Frankly, heavy, metal ammo boxes are better put to use storing batteries or in your case, adapting them as hard bags for your KLR.
Also plan on buying some XT90 connectors, MT60s (wheel phase connectors), MT30s (wheel sensors)
One of the advantages of a low-powered system is being able to use the easiest connectors and a light gauge wire. For me, the 4 milimeter bullet connectors are much easier to solder and plug and unplug. I use them for power wires and also on the phase wires. I use the high quality Turnigy's I get on Ebay. In the same vein, you will need 2 two into one adaptors for the 2P and although I make my own, the Hobbyking 14 Ga. ones work great. When I'm ordering them, I also order 14 ga. Turnigy silicone wire. @ 1000 Watts, nothing more is needed, but I sometimes use 12 Ga. on the final run from the pack to controller if it's long.

Also plan on buying some....... BMS low-voltage alarms, and a few 10AWG in-line fuse kits (fuse 20A slow-blow for each parallel set of 2 packs, then a 30A on the total).
If you match the 12S pack to a 48 V controller, a troublesome BMS is not needed. The controller w/ provide the LVC and a dedicated LVC eliminates the need for alarms which tend to be hard to set where they don't start beeping prematurely. Fuses are not needed either, If you shunt the pack wires together, a 4 m/m bullet will melt, certainly a fuse on each 2S run would be overkill.
And finally another +$50 or so for for a Mean Well CLG-150-48A for on-the-go charging. All it needs is the current turned down to minimum as 48V setting is pretty much where I want to go at 80%ish max charge on a 12S.
You are on the right track here, the huge advantage of bulk charging is not having to "break the string" to charge and by using large bricks and staying at 2P, you have set yourself to do it. I use the Mean Well GLH-320-54A and 4 of the high quality Battery Medics, here charging a 2S/1p pack;
100_0016.JPG
Bulk charging LiPoly is about as close to a "plug and play" system as one can get, but LiPoly requires a two-stage process, a storage charge to 3.90V and a top charge before going out. Top charging to 4.10V does no harm to the pack and w/ my MW it takes 20 to 30 minutes. A 150 Watt MW will take twice as long. The 80% discharge rule applies to the discharge end. Although my LVC w/ shut down @ 3.65V/cell, I try not to go below 3.75V. That's the advantage to a big pack, not having to go low.
When my MXUS geared mini finally "gave up the ghost", I switched to the popular Q100 CST (cassette version), also called the Cute;
100_0106.JPG
It's a low-speed (201) motor that I run on 14S for a top speed of 23 mph and it's the best assist combo I have used to date. I just luv to way it hides behind the cassette/brk. disc. Although I prefer the motor to be rear mounted, a Q100H (260) mid-speed motor on 12S is a nice combo that will go to about 23 mph too. It can be frt. mounted since it is not a cassette motor and then the build will not need the expensive DPN free wheel(A free wheel w/ an 11t sm. gear is manatory and only the DNP has that).
Sorry if I seem critical of your plan, it's just, after 8 years and a half a dozen builds, I kinda have a handle on what works for an assist ebike, especially budget ones.
 
motomech said:
That's a 30 mile/plus range w/ moderate pedaling in the low 20's mph. Do you really need more range than that?

I plan on running my batteries between 3.7-4.05V. Probably 40% capacity to actually use? Combined with the fact this will be used for commuting I would like to (eventually) have at least enough capacity for one "oops, I forgot to charge it" 1.5 round trips (home-work-home-work). Not a priority.

motomech said:
Not sure I understand where you are coming from on this one. First you state to you only want to go 18 mph, and here, you are talking about a very high Voltage system. It would change everything, certainly you would end up with a system way too fast for a hardtail. It will also add costs, for one thing, a 48V controller may not even handle that.

All about the Wh capacity. The increased voltage was theoretically so I could run at lower current (no need to mess with the wire sizing). Again, theoretical except for planning out my connectors. I would prefer to build one and either use jumpers (third future series set) or unused sockets in a three-to-one-connector (third parallel battery in each set). Again, not a priority as I can always desolder things.

motomech said:
By that, I think you are referencing a direct drive 9C hub motor. Are you sure you want to put a Frisbee-sized motor on the frt. forks? Most of us who have built an "assist type" ebike use a smaller geared motor, way less weight swinging on the frt. end, stealthier, better free-wheeling and better performance on 36V/48V, especially climbing hills.

I have yet to see a conversion kit for geared motors nearly as inexpensive as the direct-drive ones on eBay/Amazon/etc. Best I found was almost $300 delivered for a 450/500W. Still good points, I will take another look. Any recommended sources? When I said "1000W" I was thinking the 750/1000W kits I could just leave the jumper in to make 750W. So not quite as bad as all of that, but I have seen enough motorcycle accidents where people bought more bike than they can handle to be concerned!

motomech said:
When I went to a larger LiPoly pack, I put them into a Triangle frame bag;
If one has an open triangle area, why not use it, handling will be much improved. The dedicated bag has been great, liteweight and durable, it's been money very well spent. Frankly, heavy, metal ammo boxes are better put to use storing batteries or in your case, adapting them as hard bags for your KLR.

Actually Plano makes PLASTIC boxes, but point well taken :)

Besides I planned on the 1712 as it has enough height to place the batteries "end up" while allowing enough space for a controller inside. Built in handle a plus. Unfortunately I just checked and a REGULAR Plano barely fits in the frame. No way a tall would.

motomech said:
One of the advantages of a low-powered system is being able to use the easiest connectors and a light gauge wire. For me, the 4 milimeter bullet connectors are much easier to solder and plug and unplug. I use them for power wires and also on the phase wires. I use the high quality Turnigy's I get on Ebay. In the same vein, you will need 2 two into one adaptors for the 2P and although I make my own, the Hobbyking 14 Ga. ones work great. When I'm ordering them, I also order 14 ga. Turnigy silicone wire. @ 1000 Watts, nothing more is needed, but I sometimes use 12 Ga. on the final run from the pack to controller if it's long.

Well, I did include some 10ga in my order. Not just for current but also for abuse resistance. Unfortunately Hobbyking is out of much of what I wanted connector wise. I am a big fan of "foolproof" no-short connectors after an . . . incident with a motorcycle some years ago. I like large, easy to handle and polarized connection systems since then. That being said I will probably use 12ga for the motor-controller connection for ease of use.

motomech said:
If you match the 12S pack to a 48 V controller, a troublesome BMS is not needed. The controller w/ provide the LVC and a dedicated LVC eliminates the need for alarms which tend to be hard to set where they don't start beeping prematurely. Fuses are not needed either, If you shunt the pack wires together, a 4 m/m bullet will melt, certainly a fuse on each 2S run would be overkill.

As I want to keep cell voltage at or above 3.7V I think I can stick with the cheap BMS alarms. The plan is to wire each parallel pair as a 6S2P with a single alarm (also makes the once in a blue moon BMS charging easier). As for fusing? See my earlier comment regarding shorts. Things got awful exciting there for a moment. It hurts nothing and adds peace of mind.

motomech said:
You are on the right track here, the huge advantage of bulk charging is not having to "break the string" to charge and by using large bricks and staying at 2P, you have set yourself to do it. I use the Mean Well GLH-320-54A and 4 of the high quality Battery Medics, here charging a 2S/1p pack;

Bulk charging LiPoly is about as close to a "plug and play" system as one can get, but LiPoly requires a two-stage process, a storage charge to 3.90V and a top charge before going out. Top charging to 4.10V does no harm to the pack and w/ my MW it takes 20 to 30 minutes. A 150 Watt MW will take twice as long. The 80% discharge rule applies to the discharge end. Although my LVC w/ shut down @ 3.65V/cell, I try not to go below 3.75V. That's the advantage to a big pack, not having to go low.

When my MXUS geared mini finally "gave up the ghost", I switched to the popular Q100 CST (cassette version), also called the Cute;

It's a low-speed (201) motor that I run on 14S for a top speed of 23 mph and it's the best assist combo I have used to date. I just luv to way it hides behind the cassette/brk. disc. Although I prefer the motor to be rear mounted, a Q100H (260) mid-speed motor on 12S is a nice combo that will go to about 23 mph too. It can be frt. mounted since it is not a cassette motor and then the build will not need the expensive DPN free wheel(A free wheel w/ an 11t sm. gear is manatory and only the DNP has that).
Sorry if I seem critical of your plan, it's just, after 8 years and a half a dozen builds, I kinda have a handle on what works for an assist ebike, especially budget ones.


All criticisms accepted. I realize my lack of knowledge puts me at a disadvantage. I will take a look into the geared motors as a possibility and ditch (at least for now) the +50% future capacity options. I am now seriously considering just going rear-mount on my Schwinn and buying a separate wheel/motor combo at the same time I buy the kickbike. With quick-connects I can keep the same controller and battery between them. All that would be needed "extra" would be the throttle.

Thank you.
 
Found this thread looking for info on the same "Moto" controller you have I think. Mine came with the $150 hub motor kit and you are on the right track for the Multistar packs it's exactly what I have setup on two bikes already and a third kit is arriving this week. I also got a pair of 6s12ah graphene batteries and man are those solid voltage outputs. The default low voltage limit should cut out nicely only if you have very close discharge balance on your packs which from my experience doesn't happen very often so be careful there. Low voltage alarms are a good idea. I also get close to 30 Mile range with 10-12ah with some reserve with really modest pedaling on a $200 full suspension bike, just run 45-55 psi in the tires. If anything get a Regen capable controller if you have hills where you ride as I get back 18-25 % back with the hills around here in RI. Top speed with the hub motor is about 30mph but it will eat through the battery fast as bike air drag gets really bad at those higher speeds. 10-15 mph is in the 200watt range on level roads. Get the XT90 anti-spark connectors and setup a 2 series connector with it to plug into one of HK watt meters and you can watch the amp hours as you ride as well as pack voltage so you will know battery level. Be careful with Regen controllers and fuses because if the fuse blows and you hit Regen with no battery connected you will probably blow the controller with a Regen voltage spike. I initially started with a couple of nanotech 6s6ah packs and let a lead foot buddy ride it and he drained them in 16 minutes so yeah the motor can eat batteries fast at full throttle but I get a couple of hours of riding with them.
Btw the "SPEET SET 1.1-4.2" is the throttle voltage range the controller wants to see usually what a hall effect throttle puts out. You will get some serious acceleration using those lipo packs because they do not sag much at all and don't worry about the slightly lower voltage than a 14s pack but you can always use a 6s and two 4s packs to get to 14s.
Get a P606 charger that uses the balance connector to charge with and use that to fully charge the packs and balance them. You can even parallel the balance leads if the batteries are at close to the same voltage just unplug the power leads first!!
 
Did my down hill trip and shot a few of the Cycle Analyst ... Regen numbers for those who doubt it's usefulness...
IMG_20180428_095647~2.jpg
IMG_20180428_095634~2.jpg
IMG_20180428_095626~2.jpg
Yeah that's 221.2% and it was dropping as I took the photos from just the CA drain but crazy numbers.
 
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