Advice please

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
johnwalt
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Advice please

Post by johnwalt » Apr 06, 2018 4:29 pm

I've searched for hours but I'm still confused. I'm 68 years old, been riding my currie/mongoose SLA bike for 11 years now. It's beat now, too many motors and batteries. I'd like a geared hub motor and lithium battery. I need about 10 miles range to get groceries and would like at least 25 mph. Can someone tell me what I need in volts and a battery ? BTW my income is very limited. Thanks, John

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dogman dan
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Re: Advice please

Post by dogman dan » Apr 06, 2018 5:08 pm

For the typical geared motor kits, a good choice would be a 500w rated model, such as the Mac. It will go up to 27 mph on 48v, ( in the 10t wind) but really, as you must know, most of the ride will be slower as the voltage drops during the ride.

So 48v, in whatever you buy, will give you the 25 mph cruise. 36v typically will be about 20-22 mph cruise.

To run the kit, you would need 10-15 ah of most of the lithium batteries. 10 ah would more than give you the 10 miles, even full speed. Funds always limited, but its quite likely that a 15 ah would serve you longer, at least cost per mile. Going easier on a larger battery should help it last longer. Because its discharging at a lower rate at full gallop, and because you would stop less close to fully empty each ride.

In general, the least expensive 48v kits come with a DD motor, which would leave you a bit more budget for battery cost.

johnwalt
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Re: Advice please

Post by johnwalt » Apr 06, 2018 5:53 pm

Thanks Dogman, I like the geared motors in case I have to pedal it and they say they have more torque.

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Re: Advice please

Post by johnwalt » Apr 06, 2018 6:12 pm

Also, any recommended sources/vendors would be helpful, I'm now stuck walking in upstate rural NY :cry:

markz
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Re: Advice please

Post by markz » Apr 06, 2018 8:19 pm

One stop shop, buy motor, controller, throttle, battery, charger all in one stop shop.

www.em3ev.com
*Out of China so may be a longer shipping schedule, but ask to get faster shipping. Look at the MAC motor.

www.ebikes.ca
*Is in Western Canada, again one stop shop. Quicker shipping no doubt about that. Look at the eZee motor.

Both are highly recommended from countless ES users.

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wturber
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Re: Advice please

Post by wturber » Apr 07, 2018 12:17 am

johnwalt wrote:
Apr 06, 2018 5:53 pm
Thanks Dogman, I like the geared motors in case I have to pedal it and they say they have more torque.
Yes, the DD motors are harder to pedal without power - especially if you try to go moderately fast. But you if you have some good low gears, you can make it home OK - just not very quickly.

I think the torque differences between DD and geared aren't as great as a practical matter unless you are going up grades steeper than 10% and/or are a fairly heavy rider. You can always through more power at the DD motor to get more torque without worrying about melting/stripping the nylon gears when the motor gets hot. I do fine in a fairly hilly area with a DD hub that only gets fed about 1175 watts max. With more watts, it could deal with the hills even easier. My bike and I weigh about 220 lbs combined.

A geared hub is certainly a reasonable choice though. It all comes down to budgets and compromises.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=90369

markz
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Re: Advice please

Post by markz » Apr 07, 2018 6:14 pm

It has happened to me on a direct drive MXUS 3kw motor. Not sure if there is a difference in drag between the 3kw and your regular 9 Continent 1000W direct drive motor. I was able to make it home ok, it was about 2 miles/3.2km. And I didnt have any gearing. Like mentioned if you had proper bicycle gearing, you'd be able to make it home easy enough on the smallest crank gear and largest rear gear.

ScooterMan101
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Re: Advice please

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 07, 2018 6:51 pm

Here is one I did, ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Just one example of what can be done with DIY .
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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wesnewell
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Re: Advice please

Post by wesnewell » Apr 07, 2018 6:59 pm

you can easily pedal a dd motor too, but it should never be required with a halfway decent setup. See Need Advice in sig.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

ScooterMan101
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Re: Advice please

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 07, 2018 7:08 pm

The older a person gets the lighter weight system ( Kit ) a person should get.
So a 4.5 kg or less weight geared motor is better in that case.
Younger people just do not quite understand this .... Yet .

The Mac motor from Em3ev.com or Luna, .. or a even lighter weight motor from Grin is just what would be better for him.

And getting a kit from a vendor like the two listed above by dogmandan will get the buyer customer service that is very much needed by a person doing a DIY kit .

And when someone is limited on funds in the first place, it is cheaper to buy the right products , with customer service / help from the vendor.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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wesnewell
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Re: Advice please

Post by wesnewell » Apr 08, 2018 1:02 am

roflmao, I'm 71. Almost 72. I wouldn't touch a geared motor. I want something more reliable than that, and none or more reliable than a DD hub motor.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

2old
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Re: Advice please

Post by 2old » Apr 08, 2018 10:05 am

IMO, the weight of the motor isn't a problem unless you need to hoist the bike up stairs or on a bike rack. My DD system, an inexpensive 1000w, 48V, is fast and reliable with a 52V, 10 ah battery. And I'm old too.

ScooterMan101
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Re: Advice please

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 08, 2018 11:10 am

Not having a running car , I have to lift the bike up onto the rack on the front of a City/County Bus. So weight is a big factor for me.
Even though I first lift the front and put the wheel in first , then lift the back up , I still want a lighter weight bike.

Add to that ..

) I live in an Apartment , which is also small so there is allot of lifting the back end of the bike to get it around things and into rooms.
) I have a permanent back injury , and have pulled a side muscle that took months , nearly a year to heal from.
) I started off with the Mac motor , so am used to that weight or that or even less weight of the little Q100c motor.

Many people have thousands of miles on the Mac motor.
One person who lives back east that has a Mac motor on his recumbent has on his Mac motor around 10,000 miles ! ( first generation one )

There is another E.S. member who has ridden his Mac motor powered mountain bike from just south of the Canadian Border to just north of the Southern Border. on that Famous trail that is up mostly in the Mountains, riding up and down mountains with camping gear, with a geared rear hub motor .

+

Now with the second generation Mac , with the temp sensor inside it, when combined with the newest generation of Cycle Analyst V3 the Cycle Analyst will throttle back or stop the motor before any heat damage.
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Apr 08, 2018 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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wturber
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Re: Advice please

Post by wturber » Apr 08, 2018 11:29 am

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Apr 07, 2018 7:08 pm
The older a person gets the lighter weight system ( Kit ) a person should get.
So a 4.5 kg or less weight geared motor is better in that case.
Younger people just do not quite understand this .... Yet .
I'm 58. Age isn't the issue. Physical capability is. So, of course you design the bike to match your physical capabilities and situation (stairs, parking, storage etc.)
ScooterMan101 wrote:
Apr 07, 2018 7:08 pm
The Mac motor from Em3ev.com or Luna, .. or a even lighter weight motor from Grin is just what would be better for him.
Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know how tight his budget really is.
ScooterMan101 wrote:
Apr 07, 2018 7:08 pm
And getting a kit from a vendor like the two listed above by dogmandan will get the buyer customer service that is very much needed by a person doing a DIY kit .
Not necessarily. Such support might be "much needed" and then it might not. Many people have had great success with the el-cheapo ebay kits. Once again, these things are best judged by the individual who likely understands his own situation better than any of us do. But hopefully that judgement can benefit from informed and reasoned input from others.
ScooterMan101 wrote:
Apr 07, 2018 7:08 pm
And when someone is limited on funds in the first place, it is cheaper to buy the right products , with customer service / help from the vendor.
Sometimes that is true. Sometimes not. It also depends on the specific limits and how flexible or rigid the budget limits are. It might be cheaper to buy "the right products" ... or it might not be. Besides, the question of what to buy is asked for the very purpose of determining what "the right products" are. Saying that a person is best served by buying "the right products" doesn't really add any information. As many others have recommended, a cheap ebay kit from a well rated seller combined with a battery from a reputable e-bike supplier is often a good overall and very reliable compromise for a person looking to spend a small amount of money.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
7 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - Wangdd22 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1175 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=90369

ScooterMan101
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Re: Advice please

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 08, 2018 11:44 am

Johnwalt , in his opening post says that he would like to have a geared hub motor,
So
That , Is ... the right motor for him ( a right product for him ) .

There are other cheaper geared hub motors other than the Mac, and I have one, the Q100c , but the Q100 would not get him the speed he wants.
So
That brings us back to the Mac or similar performance motors.

There is a big factor that some of you have posted here on this thread are not really addressing, and that is ...

Why ? go with a heavy DD , when you can get the performance that you want and need for what you are doing with a lighter weight Mac.

Now if he wants to go as cheep as a e-bay DD Hub motor kit, he does have other options that he can use with the same amount of or lack of customer service , and that is ... A Q128 rear hub motor from bmsbattery.com
the Q128, with 48 volt controller that he can run with a 52 volt battery .

That would be a very cheep Kit.

Knowing exactly what his budget is , or what he is willing to spend on a credit card would lead to either a Mac or a Q128.

A Q128 running on 52 volts will get him close to the speed he wants,
A
Mac motor certainly will get him the speed he wants.

Remember he Said, that he wants a geared motor.









wturber wrote:
Apr 08, 2018 11:29 am
ScooterMan101 wrote:
Apr 07, 2018 7:08 pm
And when someone is limited on funds in the first place, it is cheaper to buy the right products , with customer service / help from the vendor.
Sometimes that is true. Sometimes not. It also depends on the specific limits and how flexible or rigid the budget limits are. It might be cheaper to buy "the right products" ... or it might not be. Besides, the question of what to buy is asked for the very purpose of determining what "the right products" are. Saying that a person is best served by buying "the right products" doesn't really add any information. As many others have recommended, a cheap ebay kit from a well rated seller combined with a battery from a reputable e-bike supplier is often a good overall and very reliable compromise for a person looking to spend a small amount of money.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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wesnewell
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Re: Advice please

Post by wesnewell » Apr 08, 2018 12:08 pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Apr 08, 2018 11:44 am
Why ? go with a heavy DD , when you can get the performance that you want and need for what you are doing with a lighter weight Mac.
A DD hub motor weights what, no more than 5 lbs. more than a geared motor. Counting the overall weight, it's no more than a couple of percent more weight. With that, you don't have to worry about broken clutches, stripped gears,and or overheating a little motor. A 1000W dd motor will last thousands of miles more than 10K. I've got over 25K miles on mine even running it on 88.8V. That would burn up most gear motors in hours, if not minutes. IIRC, my 1000W dd hub motor weights about 10 lbs. The bike and battery weight about 50 or more, so the extra 5 lbs vs. a geared motor is nothing when you take overall weight into consideration.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

ScooterMan101
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Re: Advice please

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 08, 2018 12:24 pm

Wesnewell,

A DD hub motor kit on E-Bay , that I have seen you link to in the past was way more than 10 lbs more like close to 17-20 pounds . So that is what I have to go on.

Surprised that you have one that is 10 pounds , since you have linked to heavier ones in the past,
but then you are perhaps putting in way over the amount of amps and watts that the motor is originally labeled for ??

I understand about the gears and clutches, but most people just do not use a e-bike anywhere near the amount of mileage you do .

If I had a garage like you ... that I could just drive up to , then 5 pounds would mean not much to me either. But with a back injury and getting older every month , every pound counts for me and others as well that must move a e-bike around more..
Those of you with a house and a garage probably don't know just how lucky you are.

Someday I will try a DD, just to see how many volts and amps I can put through it. but my Mac and little Q100c are working so well that I don't really need to.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

ScooterMan101
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Re: Advice please

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 08, 2018 12:46 pm

Some good reading on light weight DD hub motors,

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=93667
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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Keith 1
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Re: Advice please

Post by Keith 1 » Apr 08, 2018 12:58 pm

John, I am 68 also and have a 29" mt bike with 1000w DD rear I have a Cali 48 volt / 20 AH battery and Lyne Controller and a Cycle Annalist. 3 years old and have now road 5,000 miles. A few normal parts chains and sprockets are the only replacements. At 25 mph I can get 20-25 miles (new) after 3 years maybe 18-21 miles. Very pleased with the ride. I have about $1,100 in the total bike. PS most days I ride at 15 mph with the PAS and can go for a few hours. No hills very flat area. I am 270 Lbs.

ScooterMan101
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Re: Advice please

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 08, 2018 1:13 pm

However, he wants a geared motor, here is his original post ...

Post by johnwalt » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:29 pm

" I've searched for hours but I'm still confused. I'm 68 years old, been riding my currie/mongoose SLA bike for 11 years now. It's beat now, too many motors and batteries. I'd like a geared hub motor and lithium battery. I need about 10 miles range to get groceries and would like at least 25 mph. Can someone tell me what I need in volts and a battery ? BTW my income is very limited. Thanks, John "

Keith 1 wrote:
Apr 08, 2018 12:58 pm
John, I am 68 also and have a 29" mt bike with 1000w DD rear I have a Cali 48 volt / 20 AH battery and Lyne Controller and a Cycle Annalist. 3 years old and have now road 5,000 miles. A few normal parts chains and sprockets are the only replacements. At 25 mph I can get 20-25 miles (new) after 3 years maybe 18-21 miles. Very pleased with the ride. I have about $1,100 in the total bike. PS most days I ride at 15 mph with the PAS and can go for a few hours. No hills very flat area. I am 270 Lbs.
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

ScooterMan101
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Re: Advice please

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 08, 2018 1:24 pm

A 52 volt battery pack that is 11.5 to 14 amp hours .

You will want cells that can handle 25-30 amps going through the motor/controller. to reach 25 mph. ( My Mac will do 25 mph using around 25 amps +/- about 1 amp depending on how much battery has been used up on that ride so far, and whether I am using my 52 volt battery pack or my 44 volt battery pack ( 14s or 12 s battery pack ) 14s battery pack is 10 amp hours and 12s pack is 11.2 amp hours , and I use around 50% to 75% of the battery pack during a ride of around 10-12 miles / with the Mac Motor.
Average speed of around 17 mph for the ride. ( Note : when people say they go a speed like 25 mph, that is most always Not, the average speed through out the entire ride . ) Also note that I am using high C Discharge Rate Batteries / Lipo Batteries ( 25c ). Low Cost and Fake 18650 batteries will not do well , they are usually 0.5-2 C discharge rate batteries.


johnwalt wrote:
Apr 06, 2018 4:29 pm
I've searched for hours but I'm still confused. I'm 68 years old, been riding my currie/mongoose SLA bike for 11 years now. It's beat now, too many motors and batteries. I'd like a geared hub motor and lithium battery. I need about 10 miles range to get groceries and would like at least 25 mph. Can someone tell me what I need in volts and a battery ? BTW my income is very limited. Thanks, John
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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wesnewell
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Re: Advice please

Post by wesnewell » Apr 10, 2018 1:16 pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Apr 08, 2018 12:24 pm
Wesnewell,

A DD hub motor kit on E-Bay , that I have seen you link to in the past was way more than 10 lbs more like close to 17-20 pounds . So that is what I have to go on.

Surprised that you have one that is 10 pounds , since you have linked to heavier ones in the past,
but then you are perhaps putting in way over the amount of amps and watts that the motor is originally labeled for ??

I understand about the gears and clutches, but most people just do not use a e-bike anywhere near the amount of mileage you do .

If I had a garage like you ... that I could just drive up to , then 5 pounds would mean not much to me either. But with a back injury and getting older every month , every pound counts for me and others as well that must move a e-bike around more..
Those of you with a house and a garage probably don't know just how lucky you are.

Someday I will try a DD, just to see how many volts and amps I can put through it. but my Mac and little Q100c are working so well that I don't really need to.
10 pounds was just a reference. The motor actually weighs 14.08 lbs. A comparable geared motor will weigh 8-10 lbs depending on brand. So about 4-6 lbs. deference.
Need Advice? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=66302
Mongoose 26" Ledge 2.1 mtb bike $99, yescomusa.com 48V 1000W rear hub kit $200, Hua Tong 72V 40A controller $35, 10ah 24s lipo $217=~43mph, range=45 miles @ 20mph. 25K miles and still going strong.
Huffy Fortress 3.0 with MXUS 3000 4T motor, 24s lipo, 96V 60A controller. Total cost with extras <$700. Top speed ~50mph
My videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0KW4U ... _G2wQhptMg

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Re: Advice please

Post by amberwolf » Apr 11, 2018 12:55 am

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Apr 07, 2018 7:08 pm
The older a person gets the lighter weight system ( Kit ) a person should get.
I guess I"m in serious trouble then; the older I get the bigger and heavier stuff I build and use.

I'll be 50 in about two and a half weeks, so I'm doomed. ;)


OTOH, once I'm over the hill I can coast down so I won't need any motor at all anymore, right? :P

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Re: Advice please

Post by John in CR » Apr 12, 2018 7:18 am

While he said geared hubbie, don't forget he's done 10 years with lead and a crap brushed motor with many replacements. Take the full step and go with absolute reliability as an upgrade. So what if there's a 5-10lb weight penalty. Compared to his lead anchor there's still a big weight savings to enjoy. I just overhauled my very first DD hubbie that I put in service just over 10 years ago. One bearing had gone, but I replaced both (the only maintenance item on a DD). That service item doesn't leave you broken down either, just squeaking and/or looseness. With a few dollar parts change it runs just like the day I got it in 2008.

If he can source and fit some automotive grade lithium, then he's got the potential for a 10yr no maintenance drive system. Think of all the fiddling with brakes over a 10yr period too. A DD with regen braking reduces brake maintenance by 80-90%, maybe more with the newer variable regen systems that work all the way to a stop. Then it's a matter of keeping air in the tires and electricity in the batteries, along with the option to juice performance up enough to make you feel like a kid again and stop feeling like a slow moving target in the road stuck riding over at the side where all the crap is, trusting every passing cager to be paying enough attention not to run you over. A new hot rod and more time to spend with the ladies instead of fiddling with a bike...what's not to like?

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Re: Advice please

Post by ScooterMan101 » Apr 12, 2018 10:03 am

When I talk about lighter weight it is in regards to two wheel bicycles , and having to move them around.
I have been to Phoenix a couple of times, It reminded me of Los Angeles , Traffic everywhere and many of the other road users ( in Cars/Trucks/SUV's ) do not even care about you, some even use their larger vehicles to intimate slower drivers and people on bicycles.

In your case making large 3 wheel electric cargo bikes is good ... because you are replacing a 4,000 pound or more in weight Large Car/Truck/SUV .

So compared to those you do have a light weight vehicle .

amberwolf wrote:
Apr 11, 2018 12:55 am
ScooterMan101 wrote:
Apr 07, 2018 7:08 pm
The older a person gets the lighter weight system ( Kit ) a person should get.
I guess I"m in serious trouble then; the older I get the bigger and heavier stuff I build and use.

I'll be 50 in about two and a half weeks, so I'm doomed. ;)


OTOH, once I'm over the hill I can coast down so I won't need any motor at all anymore, right? :P
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

Oh how I wish today for no more rain
Oh how I wish to ride again
Once and for all
And all for once
Cyclist my name forevermore

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