Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

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geosped   100 W

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Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by geosped » May 14 2018 1:57pm

I wanted to start a new build. I want to build a full suspension 29'er with a rear hub. My BMC Rear hub is on it's way out and will need to get something with a bit more umph to get my fat ass (250lbs) up those nasty hills. Any suggestions i'm more interested in torque that speed as this will be a purpose built heavy duty mountain bike. I would like to do most of the work my self so looking for suggestions.

Lynn 72 A Controller
MXUS 60V 29" 3000w Are there better options for rear hub kits? Any issues on a 29" wheel? Are there better options? Looking for rear hub sealed hub ONLY.

Battery pack's not sure was thinking 1650's custom made pack need to know what size pack would I need? Trail is about 10 miles but lots of climbing. What size pack would you recommend 10ah 15ah 20ah??? I'm thinking 15Ah pack.

My current rig is a
26" Full Suspension Giant Anthem bike with a BMC Rear hub motor, 72A Lynn controller, upgraded torque arms and 10Ah Zippy lipo pack consisting of 4 5000mah 25c 6S packs. I put 2 in series and those two in parallel to make a 10ah 12s pack. Unfortunately I believe I burned my hall sensor so looking for a new replacement. This setup has plenty of torque and speed for the type of riding I do but I dont think the BMC was setup to withstand 1800w for any extended period. Need something designed for the higher load's.
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 12S 10mah Zippy Lipo Pack

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » May 14 2018 2:12pm

if its for off-road then why not mid drive such as BBSHD, or Tangent motors ?? heavy direct drive hub motor won't be that great for aggressive off-road riding due to the heavy un-sprung weight in the rear wheel..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

ScooterMan101   1 MW

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by ScooterMan101 » May 14 2018 2:43pm

What amps were you pushing through that motor in order to melt the solder or otherwise damage the Halls ?

As you probably already know a smaller wheel on the back is best when wanting to go up hills, and the slowest speed motor as well. You can put on a 26 inch wheel/hub motor combo on the rear of a 29er, all you are doing is giving the bike more of a slack head angle, which is what most of the newer down hill bikes are doing nowdays anyway .

What I do with my rear hub motors , riding on roads with small inclines is to use a 12s pack like you , but when staying on the flats or for a faster ride on the road bike I use a 14s pack . If I went up steeper hills I would use a 10s pack instead and up the amp draw a little through the C.A. .
My first conversion ...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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motomech   1 GW

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by motomech » May 14 2018 4:00pm

My current rig is a
26" Full Suspension Giant Anthem bike with a BMC Rear hub motor, 72A Lynn controller, upgraded torque arms and 10Ah Zippy lipo pack consisting of 4 5000mah 25c 6S packs. I put 2 in series and those two in parallel to make a 10ah 12s pack..... .......This setup has plenty of torque and speed for the type of riding I do but I dont think the BMC was setup to withstand 1800w for any extended period. Need something designed for the higher load's.
Your statement is sort of conflicting, but I think you are saying that you are close w/ your current set-up. Given the amount of time and money you have invested, it seems a shame to ditch everything and start over.
Why not add a sm. geared mini-motor to the frt. for a 2WD? Then you could;
1)Install new Halls(avail. @ Ebike CA, BTW), leave the wires alone and use a more reasonable controller in the 35 to 40 Amps range.
2)Stay w/ the LiPoly and use another 2S/1P or 2P pack for the frt. motor, giving you a total capacity of 15 Ah or 20 Ah.
3)Take some of the money you are planning to spend and put it into better whl.s and tires.
Now I know the experts will come on here and say that a frt. motor will ruin the handling and is not needed, but I will say it depends on what kind of trail rider you are.
If you rail the berms, do drop-offs, loft the frt. end alot and generally haul ass, yes, I would say go w/ the mid-drive or a huge hubbie and deal w/ the problems that will arise from using those set-ups.
But if you are like me, have slowed down a little, pick the trails that are not the most difficult and don't try to climb hills that you couldn't walk up w/out to resorting to all fours, 2WD works very well.
More or less, the same rational applies to the donor bike. Your Giant is fine for 'less than all out" trail riding and if the above mentioned whl. and tire up-grades are performed, that could be taken up a notch and flats could be a thing of the past. My experience w/ trail riding here in the desert is, flat tires have been the biggest challenge to overcome.
I've worked out the throttle set-up and the best way to bulk charge LiPoly over the years and could supply some links should this might be an option for you.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

geosped   100 W

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by geosped » May 14 2018 5:36pm

I also have a Niner full suspension bike that I'm planning on using. So I already have the bike. This would be for off road and like the simplicity of a rear hub setup. Don't want to do mid gear drive. Dont want to do front hub although that's very interesting. The setup I have now is great in terms of torque and speed just want to get a gear hub setup with high torque. The 29er provides great coasting power and the larger wheel alows me to go over most anything. So really just looking for a robost rear hub setup. Any recommendations? What would the recommendation be in terms of amps I would need to put through the system?
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 12S 10mah Zippy Lipo Pack

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by MadRhino » May 14 2018 6:14pm

A geared hub is not the most reliable in mountain trails. If you want torque and reliability, don’t be afraid building with a 25 lbs DD hub with 50mm magnets, a slow winding for a 29er.

Assemble 5Ah lipo bricks 18s 2p, even 8Ah bricks if you can. With a slow motor and 29 wheels, you should do 30 Mph. Feed it 80 to 100A battery current, 160+ A phase current to start with, to make it a good climber.

That is the way to build reliable motor bike feel for mountain trails, while driving the chain is the way to build the best bicycle feel for technical and jumping.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

geosped   100 W

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by geosped » May 14 2018 7:46pm

Here are a couple of pics of my current rig. I may try and fix the hall sensors first. Thanks for all the suggestions.
giant.jpg
giant.jpg (31.53 KiB) Viewed 564 times
Attachments
IMG_20160324_100835.jpg
IMG_20160324_100835.jpg (142.89 KiB) Viewed 564 times
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 12S 10mah Zippy Lipo Pack

markz   100 GW

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by markz » May 14 2018 8:15pm

halls are easy to fix
lyen has them as well

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motomech   1 GW

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by motomech » May 14 2018 11:24pm

You make it sound difficult to install new Halls, it's not, especially since I can tell you how. I've done two of 'em.
Remove the cover screws w/. a hand-held impact driver so you don't strip them.
If your motors are like my EZee's, the Halls didn't fail, but the wire-to-PCB solder joints did. It really doesn't matter because the parts are cheap. Get all three Halls from Grin and while you are at it, get the up-dated V2 PCB. The V1 had ridiculously sm. holes and the one on there now will have epoxy in the solder holes making it difficult to get a good solder joint.
When you carefully pry off the old PCB, there will be an out-line where the epoxy was and you will use it as an guide to where you will JB Weld on the new one. The position is not critical, but you want it close to where it was.
Leave the old PCB intact and hanging to the side.
After you mount and solder the new Halls on the new PCB, epoxy it on the Coils.
After it has cured, solder in the Hall wires using the old PCB wire location as a guide.
I had to lengthen my Hall rewires because they were too short, a common prob. w/ the early Ezee's.
That's it.
Last edited by motomech on May 24 2018 12:02am, edited 2 times in total.
Motomech

'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/20Ah Multistar Lipo rear 5Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83430
'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100C 201 14S LiPoly elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. 23 MPH.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691&p=1378484#p1378484

geosped   100 W

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by geosped » May 15 2018 8:25am

I appreciate the response. Do you happen to have any pics of the pcb board so I have a visual to compare. I reached out to Lyen havent heard back yet. Also do I need any special tools?

I'm going to keep the rig as is for now and if I can get the hall sensors fixed I may not butcher up my 29er and just enjoy what I have. It's a lot of fun on the trails.
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 12S 10mah Zippy Lipo Pack

geosped   100 W

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by geosped » May 15 2018 6:49pm

I"m opening up another thread on BMC rebuild so I can keep this on topic. But here is a pic of the inside.
Attachments
IMG_20180515_192142.jpg
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 12S 10mah Zippy Lipo Pack

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by MadRhino » May 15 2018 9:04pm

motomech wrote:
May 14 2018 11:24pm
...
As far as the 29's are concerned, I've never rode them, but I'm not sure they are "better" for a hub motor wheel. At any rate, motor cycle-like full-on HD knobbies is something a serious trail rider must have. I use Kenda Nevegals ona Alex rim.
Larger wheels are speeding much better on the rough, but you are right in that they are not best for hub motors. Unless the winding is a perfect match for the wheel size AND the motor is heavy enough to shed the heat, a 29er wheel can make climbing very hard on a motor. Even a 26 can be, but a 24 is definitely making a bucking pony on any but the nicest trails. I use 26, Kenda Nevegals too, on Sun Double Track rims.

The hub (rear only) is a 33 lbs X5404 fed 20kw bursts. The bike is 88 lbs with 8 bricks of 6s 8Ah rc lipo. I find it a tad heavy but it is my best so far, best time and best reliability. It’s been a killer for any ebike trying to keep up in mountain trails. I can’t count those that broke or crashed trying to compete.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

geosped   100 W

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by geosped » May 20 2018 7:01pm

motomech wrote:
May 14 2018 11:24pm
You make it sound difficult to install new Halls, it's not, especially since I can tell you how. I've done two of 'em.
Remove the cover screws w/. a hand-held impact driver so you don't strip them.
If your motors are like my EZee's, the Halls didn't fail, but the wire-to-PCB solder joints did. It really doesn't matter because the parts are cheap. Get all three Halls from Grin and while you are at it, get the up-dated V2 PCB. The V1 had ridiculously sm. holes and the one on there now will have epoxy in the solder holes making it difficult to get a good solder joint.
When you carefully pry off the old PCB, there will be an out-line where the epoxy was and you will use it as an guide to where you will JB Weld on the new one. The position is not critical, but you want it close to where it was.
Leave the old PCB intact and hanging to the side.
After you mount and solder the new Halls on the new PCB, epoxy it on the Coils.
After it has cured, solder in the Hall wires using the old PCB wire location as a guide.
I had to lengthen my Hall rewires because they were too short, a common prob. w/ the early Ezee's.
That's it.
I'm kneed deep in this now. I'm at the point where I can see the controller board and see the epoxy covering the wires. My plan was to replace the hall sensors and gear's with the composite gears. However it appears that the under the controller board the hall sensors are JB'welded inplace. Can you elaborate a little on how I remove the old hall' sensors with out damaging anything? Do I have to desolder every wire on the controller board?
Attachments
BMC V2.gif
BMC V2.gif (173.9 KiB) Viewed 360 times
Giant Anthem FS, BMC V2; 9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition); 12S 10mah Zippy Lipo Pack

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by fechter » May 20 2018 7:40pm

I try to heat the epoxy stuff to about 100C, then use a small pointy screwdriver to dig it out. It gets sort of rubber-like when it's hot. Once you get the epoxy away from the legs on the hall sensors, they can be unsoldered and replaced.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

markz   100 GW

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Re: Suggestions Need for "Real Mountain" Biking Rig Build

Post by markz » May 20 2018 7:43pm

I did a BMC pcb repair for the halls, however I have not run that motor yet as the gear side cover plate is damaged. I will use it as a fat bike fork motor bc I bought a disc side cover from em3ev.com I have a V1 model, and I replaced the gears as the $20 motor had one bad, second with a handful of gears missing, so I replaced all 3. Lyen I believe sold them. All I did was continuity check the traces. I have replaced the halls on my mxus 3kw motor.

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