Build budget bikes to sell

Hello!

I recently noticed that im not as interested in my usual hobbies as I used to be. So I got this weird idea of picking up a new hobby but with a twist. Goal: To build a low tier, safe ebike with a 20 mile range and 20mph and sell it for profit. This bike is for riding in paved areas 90% of the time, being able to go off road just for those cases where the bike path is broken and you have to go off road to be safe from traffic.

Looking for the best bang for the money of course. I wont mention a budget, from what ive been able to see, it usually leads to arguing. Why did I make a whole new thread? I keep finding these long budget ebike threads where people debate components based on their personal preference of cost, speed, range, safety etc. seems like they tend to get side tracked easily.

Just a quick reply with your recommendation of parts (bike, motor, controller, batteries) and why and what would you expect the bike to sell for. Any help would be appreciate it and I intend to make the info public just in case anyone else wants to make the same bike to sell.

Bike

Motor
36V 750W (USA Limit)

Controller

Battery
Seems like 500wh battery would be appropriate for this project
I also worked with electronics before. I know how to solder and read schematics. Perhaps I can order 1850 batts and make the pack myself but not sure if it'll pay for the time invested.

if you're going cheap then you might as well make it legal as well.
750W is usually the limit in the US and 250W in Europe.
Also, 36v would be cheaper than 48v
you could source all your stuff from alibaba/aliexpress, but to really save money you need to buy in bulk. Im not sure what sort of budget you are starting with though.

Also, you have to think about insurance and all that shit. If people get hurt then you can get in trouble for selling illegal bikes. Your business would most likely need to be legit, not just making some bikes from your garage. You could probably sell some and you will probably be ok, but there is always that one asshole that wants to screw you over because he doesnt like his bike or thinks that you screwed him somehow.

if you want cheapish cells then you could always buy from the user "tumich" here on endless sphere. People seem pretty satisfied with his cells, but you would have to also buy all the necessary supplies to build the packs.

Dumsterdave said:

if you're going cheap then you might as well make it legal as well.
750W is usually the limit in the US and 250W in Europe.
Also, 36v would be cheaper than 48v
you could source all your stuff from alibaba/aliexpress, but to really save money you need to buy in bulk. Im not sure what sort of budget you are starting with though.

Also, you have to think about insurance and all that shit. If people get hurt then you can get in trouble for selling illegal bikes. Your business would most likely need to be legit, not just making some bikes from your garage. You could probably sell some and you will probably be ok, but there is always that one asshole that wants to screw you over because he doesnt like his bike or thinks that you screwed him somehow.

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750W 36v Noted. You are correct, thanks for the info.
I will not be buying in bulk, this will be more of a hobby. Since its more of a hobby, I didn't think about declaring it a business or anything like that. Does anyone think it would be an issue on the say first 10 bikes I build? I rather not worry about things like that right at the start, but of course it would be aweful if someone sued me for something silly, or worst if someone got hurt from negligence but I really dont intend to be careless

Dumsterdave said:

if you want cheapish cells then you could always buy from the user "tumich" here on endless sphere. People seem pretty satisfied with his cells, but you would have to also buy all the necessary supplies to build the packs.

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Thats some really good info! thanks im gonna look into it.

ebikerUSA said:

750W 36v Noted. You are correct, thanks for the info.
I will not be buying in bulk, this will be more of a hobby. Since its more of a hobby, I didn't think about declaring it a business or anything like that. Does anyone think it would be an issue on the say first 10 bikes I build? I rather not worry about things like that right at the start, but of course it would be aweful if someone sued me for something silly, or worst if someone got hurt from negligence but I really dont intend to be careless

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I ain't a lawyer, but I'd be sure to have some separation between my personal assets and the business assets. I'd form an LLC or Sub-S Corp. That won't protect you from gross negligence, but it can help to limit liability. Then you need insurance. If you have personal assets of any significant amount, I'd be very cautious about getting into this business without seriously looking at the potential liabilities. Keep in mind that you are building something that will likely be operated near and around automobiles. If something goes wrong and you have assets of any significance, you will be in the cross-hairs.

Welcome to the 21st Century. :^)

I'm not a lawyer either, but to me, if you have assets worth suing for I'd find another hobby. There was a guy on here doing that though and hadn't had any difficulties. His name AIR was Henry, so you might be able to locate his posts.

No shit, when a bike you built burns somebodies house down, you better be already homeless, renting, or whatever.

Sure, the chances are infinitesimally small of that happening. That's what I thought about the chances my house would burn too. Then it happened. :lol: You need an llc, and insurance to do your hobby.

To be fair you are allowed in my state to sell three cars a year without being a car dealer. Why is this any different. I see everyones concerns with fire safety. But there is nothing wrong with building a bike or two then trying to sell them for a profit. Is it ok to sell his bike if he breaks his leg and cannot pedal anymore?

If the used car burns down someones garage how is it different than the bike? The car will be insured only if you the buyer does the ppw.

I bet 50% or more of the sellers on this forum have no insurance, and simply use a paypal business account.

Even more into it, if his ebikes battery causes a fire but it was bought from Alibaba.com who’s fault is it? His? The person charging it? The charger?

build a bike you like and want to keep for yourself then try to sell it. If it doesnt sell you will at least be happy having the bike.

Used ebikes from hobby sellers go for $500 on craigslist. ES users tend to think they can build it cheaper and rarely buy complete bikes for anywhere near the sum total of the parts.

If you buy cheap bikes then you are competing with mass produced ebikes from china. If you buy expensive bikes people will just make offers on the parts when you advertise a complete build.

There is just no money to be made as a hobby.

If you want to play with ebikes and donate your labor when you sell them you could end up trying a bunch of different bikes and only lose a a few hundred dollars on each one.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm shooting down your idea. Its just what I feel is the reality of this ebike hobby and market.

topic relates to me.
I was asked more than once to sell one of my ebikes or to build ebike for somebody.
But
what if this guy get into accident and police trace this bike to me?
If somebody gets killed for sure they prosecution, police will investigate.
It does matter what he was riding for sure.
The best is to sell your ebike like craglist, Kiji style ,
meeting in person in parking lot cash into hand, no ID of any kind shown

skeetab5780 said:

To be fair you are allowed in my state to sell three cars a year without being a car dealer. Why is this any different. I see everyones concerns with fire safety. But there is nothing wrong with building a bike or two then trying to sell them for a profit. Is it ok to sell his bike if he breaks his leg and cannot pedal anymore?

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In the case of the car, he didn't build/assemble it. Further, there's the question of whether or not he's positioning himself as an "expert."

skeetab5780 said:

I bet 50% or more of the sellers on this forum have no insurance, and simply use a paypal business account.

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I've watched people for 25 years perform business in a loose way. And it all works fine ... until it doesn't.

skeetab5780 said:

Even more into it, if his ebikes battery causes a fire but it was bought from Alibaba.com who’s fault is it? His? The person charging it? The charger?

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You are arguing common sense, not the law. The simple reality is that in liability one of the first things they look at is who is able to pay. That's why my responses were conditioned on what kind of assets/wealth the OP has.

There's the way it should be and then there is the way it actually is.

so the previous owner of the car didn't do any routine maintenance during owning it for 10 years that could cause them to be liable?

Is assembling a electric bicycle out of 3 sourced listed parts from other vendors really "building" something?

its like buying three things from CVS and putting them in a bag and the bag catches fire...what caused the fire? What item is at fault?

skeetab5780 said:

so the previous owner of the car didn't do any routine maintenance during owning it for 10 years that could cause them to be liable?

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Possibly. Or maybe they took it to a shop. That's something you'd have to show. With an e-bike builder, it is a given.
Further, cars are not novel. There's a common understanding assumed about their use and maintenance. And an individual selling her own used car is hardly positioned as being an expert. A used car dealer OTOH, probably would be. That's one of the reasons so many dealers will perform a maintenance and mechanical check of the cars they sell.

skeetab5780 said:

Is assembling a electric bicycle out of 3 sourced listed parts from other vendors really "building" something?

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Sure. Certainly more so than just selling a car. You've changed the use and capabilities by adding the motor and battery. That also changes the risks and points of failure.

skeetab5780 said:

its like buying three things from CVS and putting them in a bag and the bag catches fire...what caused the fire? What item is at fault?

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That's a poor analogy. The e-bike build will have far more than three items used. Further, these components aren't thrown into a bag, they are assembled in a particular way for an intended end purpose. So the choice of components and how they are assembled are things that could be called into question in a liability lawsuit. Were those brakes really appropriate. Were those spokes too large of a gauge? Was that battery safe with that BMS? Or did it even have a BMS. What about the connectors and that charger? Did the seller mislead the buyer about the laws and safety of the ebike?

And there's stuff I haven't even thought about that a good lawyer could probably sniff out - if there's a big enough prize to be had.

To be clear, I'm not telling the OP what to do. I'm just trying to point out some areas of possible concern worth looking into. The law is not always intuitive or fair.

no one has to prove what was done to a car during a used car sale, nor do they have to be an expert to sell or fix them on your own. It is not illegal to do so and there are no laws against altering a car and making it completely dangerous and then selling it to someone else...your whole first paragraph about cars being novel doesn't make much sense to me, bikes have been around longer and yes assembling an electric bike consists of about four parts... a bike and battery a motor and a controller setup. If they are all sourced from other vendors and they are being used as specified by that vendor it shouldn't fall of his shoulders if he sells his bike to a guy down the street.

how many teenagers and for that matter 90% of all woman don't know anything about maintaining a car, nor do they care to. I cant get my girl to put oil in hers once a month. You could be purchasing a ticking time bomb anywhere

dogman dan said:

Sure, the chances are infinitesimally small of that happening. That's what I thought about the chances my house would burn too. Then it happened. :lol: You need an llc, and insurance to do your hobby.

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I believe you said your insurance company would have sued the battery seller to get its money back, had it been a US outfit?

Yes, they were desperate for somebody to sue on my battery fire. But the company is one of those china battery sellers that changes its name 6 times a year. Same guys you'd go to for a cheap enough battery to resell it.

Farmers would have really loved it if I had got the battery from a US reseller. They'd have taken him for my claim, which was about $200,000.

Yes indeed! guys here that build a bike, ride it awhile, then sell it are taking quite a risk. Here is my advice,,, sell those bikes with lead batteries, then let the customer turn them into lithium bikes. Advise them to buy the battery from legit vendors in the country, which are few in the US. That way they take the liability, and since they sell legit packs, less likely to go off like mine did.

Much less risk selling the bike converted without the battery. He rides it and crashes, not your fault usually. But don't do stupid shit like building them with motors on alloy front forks, and no torque arms.

IT becomes ridiculous
somebody sell just regular MTB no electric , buyer crashes brakes his leg, hand ,
put claim to insurance and insurance tries to go after seller of MTB ?????
If I ever sell my ebike I will do it without and ID , anonymous in public PLACE.
Just like Kiji, Craglist advises, no identification..
Buyier can try MTB as long as he want once he gives me his driver licence or other ID

Might be ridiculous to you and me, but some lawyers live on subrogation.

If OP plans to make it a business, he has to protect his personal assets from that of the business. The above lawyer will set him up as a corporation or LLC. It's done all the time.

DanGT86 said:

build a bike you like and want to keep for yourself then try to sell it. If it doesnt sell you will at least be happy having the bike.

There is just no money to be made as a hobby.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm shooting down your idea. Its just what I feel is the reality of this ebike hobby and market.

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Thanks everyone for the input! many good points about liability are being raised. I would like to focus more on the viability of building a low cost bike that is not dangerous and still be able to turn a small profit. I'm not trying to ignore the liability aspect, but perhaps this is not the best forum to discuss that topic. I basically came to the forum to find out precisely what dangGT86 posted

DanGT86 said:

There is just no money to be made as a hobby

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Perhaps some members disagree, that's what i'm more excited to discuss. Perhaps a better way to redirect the conversation would be to open the discussion with a question.

If you wanted to build a ebike to turn a small profit, what bike would you create?

again thanks everyone for participating!

"Goal: To build a low tier, safe ebike with a 20 mile range and 20mph and sell it for profit."

Hehe... "Golden"... to be "perfectly safe", stay in bed... and hope the roof doesn't collapse. (Also, get yer - pre-cooked - food delivered, and sometimes change your sheets...)

Plan B) Assuming urban travels... LOWEST COST per mile (or thousand meters, if so inclined...)

Problem? Cost to purchase...

Solution? Education.

:wink:

LockH said:

"Goal: To build a low tier, safe ebike with a 20 mile range and 20mph and sell it for profit."

Hehe... "Golden"... to be "perfectly safe", stay in bed... and hope the roof doesn't collapse. (Also, get yer - pre-cooked - food delivered, and sometimes change your sheets...)

Plan B) Assuming urban travels... LOWEST COST per mile (or thousand meters, if so inclined...)

Problem? Cost to purchase...

Solution? Education.

:wink:

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wait what? Very confused by your post!
I think you might be saying there is nothing safe... I think we all meant only as far as the bike build/parts are concern. I dont think anyone was trying to imply that the goal is to be 100% safe... thanks for the reply though. maybe I miss understood you?

Short form. Folks should "shoot for" "LOWEST COST per mile". (<-Period) Overall... and add your profit per unit sold.

A "budget bike" is unclear. "Budget" to buy? Or "budget" to own and to operate... One example, lately Sondors has been selling "cheap" electric bikes where Topic Number One in the online forums has been UPGRADES. Wanna buy bikes "complete" or with upgrades aka fixing/repairs/problems "built in" to purchase cost?

Lots of people bought the Sondors budget ebike. How many of those are still cruising, who knows.

FWIW, to sue sondors about those bikes, you'd have to go to court in china. those were sales from china.

You however, they can grab here, and go after you.

Again, the risk is infinitesimally small, but if a battery fire did a lot of damage, I assure you the customers insurance company will be on your ass big time. All I'm saying is they can get at you if it should happen.

This is not the same as you sold a car, its like you are the cars manufacturer.


Also depends on how you do the selling. If you are some dude at the flea market, who's gone now, who do they sue? But if you are traceable by the customer, you are traceable by an insurance company wanting damages.


Just do an LLC if you plan this as any kind of ongoing business, and then collect and pay your sales taxes.