Throttle dead zone fixes

Tolkano · Jul 4, 2018

Hey

I remember reading a while ago that there were some fixes for throttle dead zone involving resistors/pots of sorts

I basically want to make it so as soon as i turn the throttle i get response instead of 15% of no movement at the beginning

Can anyone show me how this goes down?

amberwolf · Jul 4, 2018

First, what controller do you have? Some of them are programmable, or have settings in an LCD to change settings with, and you may be able to fix it that way.

Second, do you use a Cycle Analyst? If so, depending on the version, you may be able to use it to adjust the throttle voltage range (the v3 and up definitely has the ability).

Tolkano · Jul 4, 2018

amberwolf said:
First, what controller do you have? Some of them are programmable, or have settings in an LCD to change settings with, and you may be able to fix it that way.

Second, do you use a Cycle Analyst? If so, depending on the version, you may be able to use it to adjust the throttle voltage range (the v3 and up definitely has the ability).

KT Controller

Tolkano · Jul 4, 2018

I measured my voltage at 0.83v at idle

Wheel moves at 1.23V and WOT is at 3.61v

So my basic goal is to just take up some of that 0.4V slack at the beginning of the throttle is that possible?

markz · Jul 5, 2018

I have read of "re-mapping" throttles but never delved into it much more then that.
Can use search terms like throttle remapping

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35031&p=558938&hilit=throttle+remapping#p558938

TommyCat · Jul 5, 2018

You and I have very similar throttle profiles...

You can raise the starting voltage output by adding some resistance to the ground line of the hall sensor. Start with a 10 K, mini, multi-turn trim pot, set at the least resistance between the two legs you will use. The third leg is not used so isolate. And adjust as needed. The more resistance, the higher the starting voltage.It's important to have good, solid, soldered and isolated connections as this circuit is mAs (~ 7mA). And eccessive resistance will put the output in the motors run zone! :shock:

I would also recommend a switch on the supply 5vdc input line as a fail safe cut-off.

That said, the small amount of deflection that you mention doesn't seem worth the trouble and added failure points. Unless your having other issues....?

Having a little dead zone helps me to keep from 'accidentally' bumping the throttle and jogging the motor and/or running over my foot. :lol: Same with the switch.

Tolkano · Jul 5, 2018

TommyCat said:
You and I have very similar throttle profiles...

You can raise the starting voltage output by adding some resistance to the ground line of the hall sensor. Start with a 10 K, mini, multi-turn trim pot, set at the least resistance between the two legs you will use. The third leg is not used so isolate. And adjust as needed. The more resistance, the higher the starting voltage.It's important to have good, solid, soldered and isolated connections as this circuit is mAs (~ 7mA). And eccessive resistance will put the output in the motors run zone! I would also recommend a switch on the supply 5vdc input line as a fail safe cut-off.

That said, the small amount of deflection that you mention doesn't seem worth the trouble and added failure points. Unless your having other issues....?

Having a little dead zone helps me to keep from 'accidentally' bumping the throttle and jogging the motor and/or running over my foot. :lol: Same with the switch.

Which wires do i attach it to? Theres like power, ground and signal

TommyCat · Jul 6, 2018

TommyCat said:
You can raise the starting voltage output by adding some resistance to the ground line of the hall sensor.

As always once the desired resistance is found with the pot. You can carefully measure the resistance, and insert a resistor of like value in it's place. Being smaller, and no chance of value changing... or glue setting stem to keep from moving.

fechter · Jul 6, 2018

The diagram is great. That's exactly how to do it. I just left the pot in place on mine and have it covered with heat shrink tubing. I adjusted it until the motor started barely turning, then backed off a little. Final resistance is typically around 200 ohms, so you could probably use a lower value of pot resistance to make the adjustment less sensitive. I used a 500 ohm pot. This varies considerably between models of controller and throttle.

Not only does this take up the dead band at the bottom, but the low end throttle response will be much more controllable.

Tolkano · Jul 7, 2018

TommyCat said:
TommyCat said:

You can raise the starting voltage output by adding some resistance to the ground line of the hall sensor.

Click to expand...

As always once the desired resistance is found with the pot. You can carefully measure the resistance, and insert a resistor of like value in it's place. Being smaller, and no chance of value changing... or glue setting stem to keep from moving.

Nice thanks for the post that's super easy to understand

Just ordered 5pc 10k trim pots for $1 ill do this in about a month when they arrive 8)

I'll probably try to take up about 0.2-0.3v just to give me some safety zone but it should be enough to where i dont kill my wrists at full throttle any more

TommyCat · Jul 8, 2018

tolkaNo said:
Nice thanks for the post that's super easy to understand

Your certainly welcome!

Just ordered 5pc 10k trim pots for $1 ill do this in about a month when they arrive 8)

Wow, a fix for a dollar! I like it.

I'll probably try to take up about 0.2-0.3v just to give me some safety zone but it should be enough to where i dont kill my wrists at full throttle any more

Just to clarify... this mod will decrease the front dead zone of the throttle rotation. Reducing the twist between full off and when the motor starts. But it does not effect the twist required for full motor speed operation...

Tolkano · Jul 8, 2018

TommyCat said:
tolkaNo said:

Nice thanks for the post that's super easy to understand

Your certainly welcome!

Just ordered 5pc 10k trim pots for $1 ill do this in about a month when they arrive 8)

Wow, a fix for a dollar! I like it.

I'll probably try to take up about 0.2-0.3v just to give me some safety zone but it should be enough to where i dont kill my wrists at full throttle any more

Just to clarify... this mod will decrease the front dead zone of the throttle rotation. Reducing the twist between full off and when the motor starts. But it does not effect the twist required for full motor speed operation...

Click to expand...

It doesn't? If i start at a higher voltage don't i then reach full voltage earlier in the rotation?

TommyCat · Jul 9, 2018

TommyCat said:
That said, the small amount of deflection that you mention doesn't seem worth the trouble and added failure points. Unless your having other issues....?

...thought there was more to it. :wink:

No, just raising the starting voltage does not change the rest of the total profile like you think. Here is an example of a starting voltage modification by adding 46 ohms resistance to the ground leg. Done on a test rig, no controller attached.

You can see that the ending voltage remains the same. Altho it may reach max motor speed a cats whisker earlier.

Both my throttles that I have (full twist and thumb) full rotation degrees are ~ 68 degrees. Just to give you some reference. If you desire to shorten that,I don't know an easy electrical way to do it. It would be possible mechanically, but just somewhat easily if you had a 2 magnet throttle.

That said depending on when your motor reaches top end. Perhaps you could block some of the final rotation if it's not needed. In this diagram almost 40% of the ending twist is not even needed. :shock:

Fechter, good tip on the smaller 500 ohm potentiometer! As you say, more precise control of the resistance input if you have one.

fechter · Jul 9, 2018

If you want to reduce the travel from zero to full throttle, you would need to feed the throttle with something a little over 5v on the power wire. Not so easy to do in most cases as you would need some kind of voltage regulator that can run off the pack voltage.

The other way to do it is magnetically. If your throttle has two magnets, it's pretty easy, just move the full throttle side magnet closer to the zero throttle side one. If the throttle has a single magnet, you can shorten the magnet a little. The magnet material is very difficult to cut and is very hard. It can be done with a Dremel tool and a cutoff wheel. You could also just use a big bench grinder and grind off the end. If cutting or grinding magnets, you need to be sure they don't get hotter than about 100C or they can be demagnetized. NdFeB magnet material is also combustible and makes a huge shower of sparks when grinding it so be fire safe when working with it.

Tolkano · Jul 9, 2018

TommyCat said:
TommyCat said:

That said, the small amount of deflection that you mention doesn't seem worth the trouble and added failure points. Unless your having other issues....?

Click to expand...

...thought there was more to it. :wink:

No, just raising the starting voltage does not change the rest of the total profile like you think. Here is an example of a starting voltage modification by adding 46 ohms resistance to the ground leg. Done on a test rig, no controller attached.

You can see that the ending voltage remains the same. Altho it may reach max motor speed a cats whisker earlier.

Both my throttles that I have (full twist and thumb) full rotation degrees are ~ 68 degrees. Just to give you some reference. If you desire to shorten that,I don't know an easy electrical way to do it. It would be possible mechanically, but just somewhat easily if you had a 2 magnet throttle.

That said depending on when your motor reaches top end. Perhaps you could block some of the final rotation if it's not needed. In this diagram almost 40% of the ending twist is not even needed.

Fechter, good tip on the smaller 500 ohm potentiometer! As you say, more precise control of the resistance input if you have one.

Ahhh i see.. weird that the voltage difference evens out at the end

Im still gonna do the mod, i want instant response dammit :lol:

TommyCat · Jul 10, 2018

tolkaNo said:
Ahhh i see.. weird that the voltage difference evens out at the end

The magic of electronics! 8)

Im still gonna do the mod, i want instant response dammit :lol:

Check back in after you get it done and let us know how it went!

evo1087 · Oct 27, 2018

Another simple solution is to open the throttle and glue some rubber stopper on the return stop ledge. Takes some testing with the wheel in the air. Ive been running it two years with no issues. Ive also adjusted the magnet positions inside for less throttle twist range. Avoid the $5 throttle. The magnets and stops are parallel to the hall sensor and overtime it can damage the sensor from impact resulting in unwanted partial throttle. The $10 throtlles are harder to tune the magnets/twist range, but those stops are stonger and the magnets dont impact the hall sensor but rather pass it without contact. These are much safer especially if off roading.

rexfordk83 · Jul 14, 2020

TommyCat said:
You and I have very similar throttle profiles...

You can raise the starting voltage output by adding some resistance to the ground line of the hall sensor. Start with a 10 K, mini, multi-turn trim pot, set at the least resistance between the two legs you will use. The third leg is not used so isolate. And adjust as needed. The more resistance, the higher the starting voltage.It's important to have good, solid, soldered and isolated connections as this circuit is mAs (~ 7mA). And eccessive resistance will put the output in the motors run zone! I would also recommend a switch on the supply 5vdc input line as a fail safe cut-off.

That said, the small amount of deflection that you mention doesn't seem worth the trouble and added failure points. Unless your having other issues....?

Having a little dead zone helps me to keep from 'accidentally' bumping the throttle and jogging the motor and/or running over my foot. :lol: Same with the switch.

if my throttle has a built in switch to turn the throttle on and off(ignition key) would that work as the fail safe? instead of adding a switch to the positive?

amberwolf · Jul 14, 2020

If the key shuts down the controller, it doesn't matter how it does it, it'll still do it as a safety.

The switch in the positive is just a guarantee that you can shut power off to just the throttle if you wanted to.

Side note: if the keyswitch has battery voltage to it, then it's almost certainly switching the controller itself on/off.

If the keyswitch has only 5v on it, then it is probably already switching power to the throttle on/off.

TommyCat · Jul 16, 2020

rexfordk83 said:
TommyCat said:

I would also recommend a switch on the supply 5vdc input line as a fail safe cut-off.

Click to expand...

if my throttle has a built in switch to turn the throttle on and off(ignition key) would that work as the fail safe? instead of adding a switch to the positive?

My over all reason for adding a cut off switch was for safety sake. As modifying a control device as important as a throttle, can have dangerous results if not done correctly.
IMHO the first line of defense would be the use of brake switches on both front and rear brake levers in conjunction with the controller's brake circuit to disable the motor when activated. Most intuitive in a panic situation.
Next would be a switch in a convenient position, which I also use when working on the electronics of my bike to prevent accidental starting of the motor. Which also provides an extra layer of theft prevention.
But your keyed switch would also work as a last resort, if you have the time and presence of mind to use it under a failure situation. As well an anyone using your bike! :shock:

Regards,
T.C.

MadRhino · Jul 19, 2020

Now I have a dead zone in the throttle on one of my bikes. First time this kind of fail does happen to me. I am not talking about the begining of throttle signal, but right in the middle it does stop at some point and resume with further rotation. I am about to replace the throttle with a new one, but wondered if anyone else had experienced such a weird throttle fail before. I just can’t see how the signal can be interrupted at one precise point of rotation on a hall effect throttle.

DogDipstick · Jul 19, 2020

MadRhino said:
I just can’t see how the signal can be interrupted at one precise point of rotation on a hall effect throttle.

Think about it... the Hall sensor is right in the middle of its output.. 2.5v.. right in the middle of the throw. It is "resting".. ie no signaling a lower th value.. or a higher one... it is in the middle of the ( magnet range) signal.

At the bottom of the throttle throw ( w hall sensor) it is pulled down below 2.5v.. ( voltage.. ) in the middle , nothing ( no signal going high or low,

above that, >2.5v.. the magnet has gone positive and is the upper end of the throw...

I would bet the Hall sensor is just slowing down or getting old to react.This would affect the middle of the th range. IDK no expert here though.

fechter · Jul 19, 2020

About the only way I can see that happening is if a wire broke or the magnet is touching a wire at one spot.

If you take the throttle apart you may see something obvious.

MadRhino · Jul 19, 2020

This throttle had suffered a lot of abuse, since I flip my bikes upside down carelessly for servicing, and a few crashes too. Throttles and saddles never last long here. It was due to be replaced anyway, but it is the first time that I have this kind of throttle fail. Sure not the worst. I prefer a dead spot than a sticky spot. :wink:

larsb · Jul 19, 2020

@TolkaNo: You can make something like this update also to fix dead zone:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77735

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