Motor not working this morning

Propofolboy · Jul 23, 2018

Hi there! First time poster so hopefully I don't get flamed...

I just built my first E-bike. I had an all steel frame Raleigh Pardner and put on a 1000W 48 V direct drive motor on front hub (CNE bikes, Chinese motor - 48V battery bought from Grin in Vancouver). I had it all working well. I then tried to clean up the cables...

I went to ride it this morning and the throttle lights showed a full battery but when I applied throttle there was no output from motor. I assumed the connection was not tight, so replugged it in and out.. nothing. Then I undid a couple of my cable ties on the front fork, and gave some slack where the wires come out of the axel on the motor. This solved the problem. The axel wires have a wire coil covering for protection, and assumed that this prevent kinking.. but obviously the way I had it tied down prevented it from working...

Should I be concerned that there is a loose connection somewhere, or just allow a little more slack on these wires and not worry about it. Any tricks or tips to securing it without causing this to happen?

Thanks!

Hwy89 · Jul 23, 2018

My thought is that if you don't want to get stranded somewhere you should find the problem. Try to duplicate the problem then chase it down. Look at trouble shooting tips for phase and hall wires first before you pull the cover off the motor, but if you have to open the motor there is help for that here too.
After faulty connectors the most common problem is damaged wires where they enter the axle.

MadRhino · Jul 23, 2018

If you have a wire or connection damage, the problem will happen again sooner or later. You have the choice of finding it now, or then.

Propofolboy · Jul 23, 2018

Yes I agree that something isn't right if just bending the wire a reasonable amount causes motor not to function.
I guess i'll put it down to a one off for now, and if it happens a 2nd time I will investigate further. I don't really see any problems externally. I imagine I'd have to take the whole motor apart to have a look at the connections internally.

amberwolf · Jul 23, 2018

Most likely a wire is broken inside the insulation right at the axle entrance.

All this will do if left alone is eventually fail under vibration, etc., and leave you pedalling until it's fixed.

Or the insulation is cut thru by the end of the axle, and securing the wire tightly is forcing the wire against the axle enough to short the signal on the wire out to the axle metal.

If this is left alone, it could cause damage to the electronics sending that signal, depending on which one it is and what else it might short to.

A third possibility is that when tied down, the connector further down the cable is set at just such an angle or tension that it's pulling a wire out of of a contact's crimp, or a cotnact back out of the housing. When not tied down it doesn't pull on it and the connection is fine.

If this is left alone, then under vibration you could have intermittent issues, and eventually be left pedalling without the motor till it's fixed.

e-beach · Jul 23, 2018

Propofolboy said:
.....
I went to ride it this morning and the throttle lights showed a full battery but when I applied throttle there was no output from motor. ......

Intermittent wiring problems are the worst!!! But they happen in all vehicles. I am not so quick to say you have a broken wire though.

When you say you applied the throttle and nothing happened, was there anything at all? Shuttering or juddering or shaking the motor?

Also, are you using ebike breaks that have wiring attached to them?

Propofolboy · Jul 23, 2018

Thanks for replying. I feel like there was a very slight shudder but might have not been. I went off the throttle quickly when no response as I think I could burn my MOSFETS that way?
I have NOT attached my ebrake wires. I am not using the PAS. The only things hooked to my controller are the throttle, the motor, and the battery. The battery has a solid XT90S connection, and I carry it in my backpack. The motor is connected to the controller with an unusual single cable, its round with multiple small pins on the male side that has to be lined up with an arrow on the corresponding female connection.. It would make testing the hall and phase wires very difficult! This cable exits my hub axel with a wire spring protector which goes downward, and then loops up about 8 inches along my front fork where the motor cable plugs into it.

amberwolf · Jul 23, 2018

Some of those round multipin connectors are difficult to fully plug in, and could cause intermittent issues if not fully plugged in, especially if the cable gets pulled. You might power the system off, then unplug it to verify no bent pins or debris in the connector shell, then replug it back in firmly to ensure it's fully seated.

Propofolboy · Jul 23, 2018

amberwolf said:
Most likely a wire is broken inside the insulation right at the axle entrance.

All this will do if left alone is eventually fail under vibration, etc., and leave you pedalling until it's fixed.

Or the insulation is cut thru by the end of the axle, and securing the wire tightly is forcing the wire against the axle enough to short the signal on the wire out to the axle metal.

If this is left alone, it could cause damage to the electronics sending that signal, depending on which one it is and what else it might short to.

A third possibility is that when tied down, the connector further down the cable is set at just such an angle or tension that it's pulling a wire out of of a contact's crimp, or a cotnact back out of the housing. When not tied down it doesn't pull on it and the connection is fine.

If this is left alone, then under vibration you could have intermittent issues, and eventually be left pedalling without the motor till it's fixed.

Awesome thanks for reply. Yes probably something like this going on.
Would all of these issues require taking the hub motor apart..
Sounds quite intimidating as I don't have a huge amount of experience with this sort of thing!

Propofolboy · Jul 23, 2018

amberwolf said:
Most likely a wire is broken inside the insulation right at the axle entrance.

All this will do if left alone is eventually fail under vibration, etc., and leave you pedalling until it's fixed.

Or the insulation is cut thru by the end of the axle, and securing the wire tightly is forcing the wire against the axle enough to short the signal on the wire out to the axle metal.

If this is left alone, it could cause damage to the electronics sending that signal, depending on which one it is and what else it might short to.

A third possibility is that when tied down, the connector further down the cable is set at just such an angle or tension that it's pulling a wire out of of a contact's crimp, or a cotnact back out of the housing. When not tied down it doesn't pull on it and the connection is fine.

If this is left alone, then under vibration you could have intermittent issues, and eventually be left pedalling without the motor till it's fixed.

Awesome thanks for reply. Yes probably something like this going on.
Would all of these issues require taking the hub motor apart..
Sounds quite intimidating as I don't have a huge amount of experience with this sort of thing!

e-beach · Jul 23, 2018

Propofolboy said:
.........This cable exits my hub axel with a wire spring protector which goes downward, and then loops up about 8 inches along my front fork where the motor cable plugs into it.

Pictures please! and make sure they are in focus. Keeping them to a vhs setting (640x480px) allows them to load faster for those with slow internet.

So you have a connector 8 inches up the fork? Is this true?

If this is so, sounds to me like a connection problem.

Propofolboy · Jul 23, 2018

I really hope this is the problem as the motor is brand new and I don't want to start taking it apart.
I think I'd rather it just breaks if that's the case and warranty it...

Propofolboy · Jul 23, 2018

I really hope this is the problem as the motor is brand new and I don't want to start taking it apart.
I think I'd rather it just breaks if that's the case and warranty it...

Propofolboy · Jul 23, 2018

I really hope this is the problem as the motor is brand new and I don't want to start taking it apart.
I think I'd rather it just breaks if that's the case and warranty it...

e-beach · Jul 23, 2018

I see you are having the same problem I am having, that being he submit button not submitting quickly. Hence the multiple posts. Contact the Moderators and let them know it is happening to you as well.

Propofolboy · Jul 23, 2018

Yes the submit wasn't working. Apologizes for multiple posts!

docw009 · Jul 23, 2018

I bought a fatbike motor kit from CNE bikes in 2015. I thought it was well made. They used molded connectors on all the cables. Are you using this 9 pin motor connector? They're nice if you ever get a flat tire or need to stuff where the wheel is removed. I use whiteout to mark the arrows as I can barely see them in daylight.

I doubt the cable has an internal break. I've spliced about a half dozen of these connectors either to controllers or motors and the internal wires seem pretty tough. Where you can go wrong is that the two plugs can be a tight fit, so it takes some force to get them to mate. Perhaps you had a flaky connect, I've had that happen a few times. I use KT controllers with LCD's. and a bad connection throws a Error code.

Propofolboy · Jul 23, 2018

Yep thats the connection!

I'm starting to think that my cable ties might have pulled the connector apart slightly, but enough to shut down the motor.
Thanks for reassuring words that these are well made, because its kind of leap of faith when you buy these things..
I did a pretty good hill ride and blew through the entire 13 Ah battery today and not even a hiccup...

Propofolboy · Jul 23, 2018

Can I just ask then..

If I ever have to troubleshoot the phase or hall wires, what can I do with this type of 9 pin connector??

docw009 · Jul 24, 2018

Buy a motor tester like this one for about $12-14 on ebay. Takes about a month to ship from China. The two square connectors are for testing Hall sensors in motor and the corresponding controller inputs. They're for motors that don't have the round connectors. So you buy a motor extension cable and adapt it.

Lunacyle has themn for around $35 shipped, or you can wait a month and get it from China for half of that. Cut the cable if needed and match the colors up. If there is a white wire in your extension cable, ignore it. Spin the wheel (backwards if it is a geared motor), and the LED's on the testor flash as the Hall sensors fire.

You will probably never need to use the tester, but for $12, it's handy to have just in case. The tester can also check the motor phases. Uses alligator clips for that.

Propofolboy · Jul 24, 2018

Awesome ! Great idea.

Just follow up. Today I was riding home, went around a corner and hit the throttle. The motor started sputtering, and had no forward power. Thought the battery was dead, but it was still at 49 V (48V 13S4P lithium battery). I pulled the 9 pin connector (discovered its called a HIGO connector), and plugged it back in firmly and back in business. A couple km later, same thing.
It seems the HIGO connector won't stay together, and is separating easily with bumps in the road. I think the phase wire pins are a bit longer than the hall wire pins so the hall wires disconnect first).

I have put some Gorilla tape around it, hopefully that fixes it. Next step I think would be silicone bead on the outside to keep them from moving (yet readily removable). Anyone else have any ideas on how to make this 9 pin HIGO connector not keep separating?

wturber · Jul 24, 2018

Propofolboy said:
Awesome ! Great idea.

Just follow up. Today I was riding home, went around a corner and hit the throttle. The motor started sputtering, and had no forward power. Thought the battery was dead, but it was still at 49 V (48V 13S4P lithium battery). I pulled the 9 pin connector (discovered its called a HIGO connector), and plugged it back in firmly and back in business. A couple km later, same thing.
It seems the HIGO connector won't stay together, and is separating easily with bumps in the road. I think the phase wire pins are a bit longer than the hall wire pins so the hall wires disconnect first).

I have put some Gorilla tape around it, hopefully that fixes it. Next step I think would be silicone bead on the outside to keep them from moving (yet readily removable). Anyone else have any ideas on how to make this 9 pin HIGO connector not keep separating?

That's really strange. My connector (looks the same) is actually a real pain to separate. In fact, I have to brace myself to not over-pull because I don't want to stress the wire against the tie downs when it does finally pop loose. Are you sure that you have the connector firmly seated all the way in? Make sure the arrows are aligned correctly and maybe give it a bit more push and see if it will seat further in.

Propofolboy · Jul 24, 2018

Oh wow! This is embarassing.

Your absolutely right. I never got that connector properly engaged. What I 'thought' was connected, was actually not fully plugged in.
It took a pretty good push together, and it bottomed out about 1/4 inch deeper. Now it is very secure.
I think we can call this problem solved at this point.

Thanks so much for everyones help. Its amazing to have such a wealth of knowledge on ebikes!

wturber · Jul 24, 2018

Cool. Just remember to ALWAYS make sure you've got those (hard to see at times) arrows aligned before giving it that extra-firm push. I've bent pins on similar connectors by not being careful.

Propofolboy · Jul 24, 2018

Yes I can see why, you really do have to push quite firmly to bottom it out.

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