Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

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ElectricGod   100 MW

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 15 2018 1:36pm

shortcircuit911 wrote:
Oct 28 2018 1:09pm
Well, I went for a ride on the trails by my house and it was pretty damn fun, that is until I fried my sabvoton. Did some trail riding, then ripped down the road for a few miles, then started doing some hard pulls. When going back to get my gopro I was pulling like 1-2kw then the bike just shut off, and wouldn't turn back on. Been trying to diagnose the issue with no luck, Electric God here on ES thinks it might be blown FETs. I'm going to send him my controller and see what he finds.

Pretty pissed with Sabvoton, no manuals or support, and a controller that can't push 100A reliably. I honestly just want to buy another controller. It is tempting to buy another sabvoton (200A model), but that would be a huge bummer if it crapped out on me. I don't want to spend more than $300-350 (less if possible) so I'm looking at options like the kelly kls7240s. I was looking at addapto, but am not sure how reliable those are as well. The search continues, just sucks that the bike is down until I throw more money at it :cry: . The ride was fun though.
As you know...your Sabvoton is toast.

I took it apart, found a blown transistor in the LCD and a bunch of blown mosfets. The filter capacitors in these controllers are horrifically inadequate. Not only are they cheap, but there is about 3-4X less capacitance than what is needed for a 24 fet controller. There needs to be about 15-18,000uF of capacitance and this controller has 4000uF on the power buss. I'm fairly sure this is the root cause for the controller failure. The mosfets are low grade Chinese parts. When Sabvoton was still around, they were doing a far better job at maintaining quality. Now that Sabvoton has closed it's doors in 2015 any new controller you find anywhere are very likely to be one of these knock-off, low grade clones. I have a legit Sabvoton made in 2014 and it is a far better product than what yours is. The quality in the clones is seriously inferior to the legit controllers.

This controller is not worth repairing. I'd have to replace all the mosfets and use much larger value capacitors. It would cost about $170 for the parts. Who knows if it would run after that.

For anybody else looking to buy a Sabvoton, just don't...the clones are garbage.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by harmonist » Nov 15 2018 2:09pm

ElectricGod wrote:
Nov 15 2018 1:36pm
As you know...your Sabvoton is toast.

I took it apart, found a blown transistor in the LCD and a bunch of blown mosfets. The filter capacitors in these controllers are horrifically inadequate. Not only are they cheap, but there is about 3-4X less capacitance than what is needed for a 24 fet controller. There needs to be about 15-18,000uF of capacitance and this controller has 4000uF on the power buss. I'm fairly sure this is the root cause for the controller failure. The mosfets are low grade Chinese parts. When Sabvoton was still around, they were doing a far better job at maintaining quality. Now that Sabvoton has closed it's doors in 2015 any new controller you find anywhere are very likely to be one of these knock-off, low grade clones. I have a legit Sabvoton made in 2014 and it is a far better product than what yours is. The quality in the clones is seriously inferior to the legit controllers.

This controller is not worth repairing. I'd have to replace all the mosfets and use much larger value capacitors. It would cost about $170 for the parts. Who knows if it would run after that.

For anybody else looking to buy a Sabvoton, just don't...the clones are garbage.
What would recommend, would something like the powervelocity 24fet be a good choice? Albeit a tad expensive.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Garen » Nov 15 2018 2:34pm

ElectricGod wrote:
Nov 15 2018 1:36pm
As you know...your Sabvoton is toast.

I took it apart, found a blown transistor in the LCD and a bunch of blown mosfets. The filter capacitors in these controllers are horrifically inadequate. Not only are they cheap, but there is about 3-4X less capacitance than what is needed for a 24 fet controller. There needs to be about 15-18,000uF of capacitance and this controller has 4000uF on the power buss. I'm fairly sure this is the root cause for the controller failure. The mosfets are low grade Chinese parts. When Sabvoton was still around, they were doing a far better job at maintaining quality. Now that Sabvoton has closed it's doors in 2015 any new controller you find anywhere are very likely to be one of these knock-off, low grade clones. I have a legit Sabvoton made in 2014 and it is a far better product than what yours is. The quality in the clones is seriously inferior to the legit controllers.

This controller is not worth repairing. I'd have to replace all the mosfets and use much larger value capacitors. It would cost about $170 for the parts. Who knows if it would run after that.

For anybody else looking to buy a Sabvoton, just don't...the clones are garbage.
Do you have any pics of the guts inside your older Sabvoton, compared to the newer one you're looking at?
I'm wondering if it's a difference between the ones you get from qsmotor, and third-party sellers that somehow have custom ones that they pair with their own TFT display, which is what shortcircuit911 got.

Next question I'd wonder is if the SSC versions have the same part quality issues or not. Surprisingly few people here seem to use them compared to the bigger SVMC ones, but they are supposed to be "newer" (and look more compact) and presumably better.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by shortcircuit911 » Nov 15 2018 8:29pm

As ElectricGod said, the sabvoton is dead. Pretty disappointing as it was not cheap and only lasted 50 miles. Done crying over it, I sold it to EG cheap as he can use the parts.

I've been spending a lot of time looking for controllers and have finally decide on one. Like I mentioned a few posts ago I'm going to go with the mobipus controller linked below. I sent them an email to see if they will have any black friday/cyber monday sales to see if I can get it a little cheaper. The bike will be som much more powerful with that controller, and I'll have more faith in the controller as it's opensource and a few members have had excellent results with them.

Also been working on my spot welder, dialing it in now.


Mobipus controller: https://ballaratebikes.com/products/72v ... controller
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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 16 2018 12:58am

shortcircuit911 wrote:
Nov 15 2018 8:29pm
As ElectricGod said, the sabvoton is dead. Pretty disappointing as it was not cheap and only lasted 50 miles. Done crying over it, I sold it to EG cheap as he can use the parts.
OH crap!!! 50 miles! You didn't tell me that before! That is just horrendous!
It is inferior to the legit ones, but damn...that's just lousy!
Uh yeah...what I said before...just don't buy a Sabvoton unless it's an old one.
The clones are clearly steaming piles of dog sh-t.
Geez! I'm sooo sorry you got suckered into buying one.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 16 2018 1:49am

harmonist wrote:
Nov 15 2018 2:09pm
What would recommend, would something like the powervelocity 24fet be a good choice? Albeit a tad expensive.
Sorry for hijacking your thread, but people asked...

I helped develop the PV controller product line. They are based on a reasonably good programmable sinusoidal MCU's that arrive in the USA without mosfets or caps. PowerVelocity, then populates them with best of breed parts before he sells them. You are not getting just some Chinese controller, You are getting best of the best mosfets there are. We spent a lot of time trying out differnt mosfets to find the ones that really deliver the best power and reliablility. You'd be surprised how many mosfet models we vetted over the last couple of years. These controllers cost what they cost for really good reasons. IF you bought the original ones made 100% in China, they would be probably $100-120 less and probably about as good as a knock-off Sabvoton. No PV controller is currently FOC capable, but they are pretty darn good sinusoidal controllers with lots of advanced features.

You are not just getting an upgraded motor controller. You are getting a module that I helped develop. It includes an IOS or android app so you can program the controller on your phone. It also includes a nice dashboard and a GPS app. That extra cost is getting you what I think is one of the best EV tools there is. Think of a CA, but much much better and does loads more.

Here's a few pics of the app. It and the module cost you a mere $100, but it destroys the CA and anything else like them on the market. If you have a CA connector, you can still use the module with any controller, just not program it. This is the current app. PV and I do constant development on the software for better functionality and new features. There's new features being added all the time. I'd say every 2 weeks or so a new version comes out that has new stuff in it.

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This is a prototype telemetry module next to a final product like you would get with a PV controller. It runs on an atmel 328 CPU and includes it's own 150v max power supply, BT module and the ability to monitor anything on an EV. You can see only some of the solder connections have connectors, that's because there's so much on this tiny board that will get developed in the future and the hardware is in place now. I know what most of those things are, but I'm keeping that to myself for now. It would take quite a lot to talk about it all. The connectors cover the "stuff" 99% of people will use. This covers 2 temperature inputs, full CA functionality, throttle in and throttle out, variable regen and a controller programming port. The module is fully updatable with new firmware as new features are developed.

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The 24 fet controller depending on if you get the 100v or 150v version uses top teir mosfets in those voltages. There is no chance of fakes either since they are bought from Digikey or Arrow. Here's some pics of the PV 24 fet. 17,000uf of power buss filtering, IRF4115 mosfets (150v version). Loads of copper reinforcing on all the major power traces. These are solid controllers and cost what they cost for good reasons.

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This is how every PV controller comes into the USA and then gets populated with top grade components here. You are not getting just some Chinese controller!

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ElectricGod   100 MW

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 16 2018 2:00am

Garen wrote:
Nov 15 2018 2:34pm
Do you have any pics of the guts inside your older Sabvoton, compared to the newer one you're looking at?
I'm wondering if it's a difference between the ones you get from qsmotor, and third-party sellers that somehow have custom ones that they pair with their own TFT display, which is what shortcircuit911 got.

Next question I'd wonder is if the SSC versions have the same part quality issues or not. Surprisingly few people here seem to use them compared to the bigger SVMC ones, but they are supposed to be "newer" (and look more compact) and presumably better.
I did a review on the 2014 Sabvoton I have. They had abandoned the product line I tried to repair here. This is the newer square style they had intended to sell as their latest products.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =4&t=89161

I wouldn't trust anything with a sabvoton label on it if it's newer than 2015. That's when they closed up shop and the Chinese cloners took over. Also, even back then, the software development had pretty much stopped on their products. The config app used today was written in 2012. It works, but it's not particularly pretty. The firmware in the MCU is really dated too. Despite the use of an STM32 MCU, the firmware in it is pretty basic and limited. This is one of the best FOC MCU's around, but marginal programming can make even good hardware mediocre.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Garen » Nov 19 2018 7:27pm

ElectricGod wrote:
Nov 16 2018 2:00am
Garen wrote:
Nov 15 2018 2:34pm
Do you have any pics of the guts inside your older Sabvoton, compared to the newer one you're looking at?
I'm wondering if it's a difference between the ones you get from qsmotor, and third-party sellers that somehow have custom ones that they pair with their own TFT display, which is what shortcircuit911 got.

Next question I'd wonder is if the SSC versions have the same part quality issues or not. Surprisingly few people here seem to use them compared to the bigger SVMC ones, but they are supposed to be "newer" (and look more compact) and presumably better.
I did a review on the 2014 Sabvoton I have. They had abandoned the product line I tried to repair here. This is the newer square style they had intended to sell as their latest products.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =4&t=89161

I wouldn't trust anything with a sabvoton label on it if it's newer than 2015. That's when they closed up shop and the Chinese cloners took over. Also, even back then, the software development had pretty much stopped on their products. The config app used today was written in 2012. It works, but it's not particularly pretty. The firmware in the MCU is really dated too. Despite the use of an STM32 MCU, the firmware in it is pretty basic and limited. This is one of the best FOC MCU's around, but marginal programming can make even good hardware mediocre.
:cry: :cry: Sadly it's too late for me, already got a couple of 'em. The SSC's look better to me, but this summer when I was thinking about it, I came across a youtuber (Vortecks) that did a tear down of his SSC72150:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8gvaFyG4m0

And it looked like he had been sold a refurbished unit as new. Getting a good controller as an individual buyer seems like a minefield.

Looking forward to seeing how things go with the Mobipus controller that @shortcircuit911 is getting.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Jonno » Nov 19 2018 10:57pm

Hi Guys,
I have given up on Sabvotons. I've bought 5 or 6 (yes I know) over the last few years. One is still running and one only lasted 8 miles :cry: .
So I bought the APT AE96600....over powered, a bit bulky but awesome.
I've done a little over 2000 miles feeding it as low as 84v HOC @ 26ah 20c burst
Currently running 113v HOC @ 21AH 20c burst. I have however limited it to 325 amps via the cycle analyst in loony mode :? but 60 amps in eco mode is good enough to trail ride.

Jonno
EEB frame, 888 forks, QS205 V3 , APT AE96600 600a controller, 113V @ 21AH Lipos 20c 325a burst, Hope 203mm brakes, CAV3 with GPS : faster than you want to go :lol:

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shortcircuit911   100 W

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by shortcircuit911 » Nov 21 2018 5:43pm

@jonno, I feel your pain man, F*ck sabvoton! I saw the APT controller and it was a contender for a while, but the size is pretty big like you said.

Well been busy the last few days traveling and what not, but have some updates on the build

First off, the spot welder. After changing batteries and adding a digital timer, there is just too much power coming from the welder and it wasn't working/didn't feel safe. I'm going to scrap everything but he battery and use that to power a malectric spot welder. Since getting my bike back up and running is priority, the spot welder will have to wait a month or so, more to come on that.

Now, the bike. As stated earlier, the sabvoton is dead, that was one of the worst purchases I've ever made in my life (I have kelly controllers that still run). So I was able to get in touch with SamD here on the forum (www.ballaratebikes.com) and purchased a mobipus 72200 controller and wifi module. I'm so surprised there aren't more people using these controllers, because they look so bad ass! I'm also in the process of buying a 200A contactor and ignition switch to turn the bike on and off, as the sabvoton had the on/off button incorporated into the tft screen setup. I also want to mention that there is TONS of documentation on this controller, the manual alone is 35 pages, so I've begun reading it while I wait for the controller to arrive. I also need to buy a windows phone or tablet for the display (MPH,Phase current, Battery current) and changing parameters on the fly. More to come!



Sam's mobipus video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zL8zXFmEbI&t=325s

Bombsquad build using mobipus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inela1cI30k

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by shortcircuit911 » Nov 22 2018 1:15pm

So I've been reading as much as I can on the Mobipus controller and I just wanted to post everything here for anyone that might be interested in getting one of these controllers. I have come across a few different threads here on ES as well as a really good article written by Spinningmagnets of ES. So excited to install this thing on my bike and get riding again, life's just a little bit better with a high performance ebike - just my opinion.

spinningmagnet's article: http://www.electricbike.com/mobipus-controllers-shenta/

Mobipus controllers:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... it=mobipus

Mobipus controller official:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=97120

Happy Thanksgiving Everybody!

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Gstegman » Nov 22 2018 10:45pm

Well bummer! I have the same Sabvoton and motor so I guess it is a matter of time. I am only running 80 amps and was thinking of tweaking that to 100. Not now...

I have managed a whopping 25 miles so here is to hoping.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Electricglider » Nov 23 2018 3:01am

Sad to hear about all the Sabvoton failiures, but this is so far the only place I have read about the problem. I have a pretty new unlocked 72150 my self. Now it sounds like we are all doomed.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Geargrind » Nov 23 2018 8:59am

Gstegman wrote:
Nov 22 2018 10:45pm
Well bummer! I have the same Sabvoton and motor so I guess it is a matter of time. I am only running 80 amps and was thinking of tweaking that to 100. Not now...

I have managed a whopping 25 miles so here is to hoping.
I haven't built my battery as of yet, but have the same Sabvoton controller.. This news is disappointing.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Choppa66 » Nov 23 2018 6:27pm

Me to. Haven't got mine in bike yet or battery sorted. Not sounding good for these controllers. :( I got mine from Andy Kirbys shop after seeing how much he rates them on his you tube channel. Fingers crossed this is just the odd problem,though not sounding good about the parts inside from what the guy said that pulled shortcircuits apart!! I'm thinking about sending an email to the guy I bought it from but the problem is I guess there's not much he can do until..if it goes wrong? With how long this bike us taking me to build it will be out of warranty...if there is one!! :(

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by shortcircuit911 » Nov 25 2018 1:33am

Yeah it was heartbreaking when it happened, that was a long walk of shame. Hopefully your guys' controllers are legit and won't break down on you guys. I couldn't take any chances on another sabvoton, so I broke down and spent a little extra to get what some of the top builders are using on their stuff. The current limit was set to 100A and the sabvoton and still fried (it was a 150A). To be fair I was riding it really hard as usual, but that shouldn't have happened.

@choppa, I saw heard on one of Andy's video's say that he will help people out with support if you get it from him. Not too sure what that means but that's something. There's no warranty on any of this stuff really, if I complained about the motor I fried and the sabvoton system that blew they'd probably laugh at me.

So, I've been looking for 3 main things for the controller and display system. I'm going to add a main contactor, ignition, pre-charge circuit, and of course, and nice big display for the handlebars. Still working out which way I want to go with the display, cant decide just yet. The contactor and keyswitch I'm going to get are below. More to come as parts should be coming in soon.


Contactor: https:
//www.electricmotorsport.com/ev-parts/con ... -cont.html

Key switch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Wire-Ignitio ... rk:14:pf:0

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Choppa66 » Nov 25 2018 7:13pm

I feel for you. I hope the new one works out ok and bike is back up and running soon? Yeah im wondering what he means by support though...as in what basic settings to throw at it...or if it goes bang here's a new one...or have your money back...Only time will tell I guess for us all. Mobipus looks good bit of kit. I'm still waiting for some torque arms to be CNC cut for mine,had it all up together as a rolling frame...but wasn't happy with it so i pulled it all apart again!! :lol: want to get it all finished as a rolling frame...that i can sort of peddle...and all the brakes sorted etc...and the issue with swinging arm etc..then start on the wiring..batteries and stuff.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by shortcircuit911 » Nov 28 2018 12:39am

Yeah I've done a lot of work then had to redo it because I changed something on this bike. It's fun and a pain in the ace.

So I bought some stuff for the bike on cyber Monday. I eventually plan on making a new battery pack out of 26650 littokala cells, so I picked up 50 for like $165 free shipping. I also picked up the contactor for the ignition, and from a different vendor than the previous post. I found it $20 cheaper with free shipping, link below. Going to have to wait on the other 50 cells, welder, and BMS til next year. I hope to get the mobipus within a couple weeks, we'll see, so pumped for that thing.

http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/sol-sw180s.htm

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Samd » Nov 28 2018 12:52am

Subbed. Awesome work.
http://ballaratebikes.com/

ImageImageImage
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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Ghost1068 » Nov 28 2018 5:04pm

So what did the total cost end up being??? I am looking to do something similar....

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by shortcircuit911 » Nov 29 2018 8:03pm

@ghost don't remember total off the top of my head. Just hit up Sam from ballarat he can calculate and convert shipping and what not. He was super helpful and responsive.

Solenoid on the way, hope to have the bike running before xmas. I've also been thinking about how to improve the body/swingarm interface, we'll see if shimming it helped first.

I hope to see the 26650 cells some time in December as well, we'll see. Next year I'll get the remaining 50 cells and spot welder. That pack will have the bluetooth BMS and should make this bike really really fun to ride.

I'm going to start wiring the 12v system this weekend and work on getting the dc/dc converter mounted. More to come on that.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Choppa66 » Nov 30 2018 6:45pm

shortcircuit911 wrote:
Nov 28 2018 12:39am
Yeah I've done a lot of work then had to redo it because I changed something on this bike. It's fun and a pain in the ace.

So I bought some stuff for the bike on cyber Monday. I eventually plan on making a new battery pack out of 26650 littokala cells, so I picked up 50 for like $165 free shipping. I also picked up the contactor for the ignition, and from a different vendor than the previous post. I found it $20 cheaper with free shipping, link below. Going to have to wait on the other 50 cells, welder, and BMS til next year. I hope to get the mobipus within a couple weeks, we'll see, so pumped for that thing.

http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/sol-sw180s.htm
Yeah tell me about it!! The bike is a lump to move about...or at least the back end of it is with the motor and swing arm! I see that Andy kirby guy has got his pack made up and running on bike, vortecks is still building his? They seem to both rate those 26650 batterys,hope you get on ok with yours. I've got my stainless torque arms now,just waiting for the spacers to try and take the play out of the rear shock mounts,will get some pictures on here when I get it back to a rolling frame again.

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by shortcircuit911 » Dec 01 2018 10:53am

@choppa yeah Andy and Vortecks definitely inspired me to build my own pack. Can't wait to build my battery next year.

So the controller is here, super fast shipping! Everything was packed up really nice ans everything looks like its really nice quality as well. The heatsink it came with is pretty massive I may have to machine it to fit inside the frame. I've started getting everything ready to do a test fire on the stand before going for a test ride. These controllers need a few things before they can power on. After the main contactor is closed you need to short the power lock to the pack +, then you need to short brake low to ground, then the controller should be ready to run. I've been working on getting all the various cables cut and crimped because there is a 16 pin connector that where everything connects (throttle, break, 3 speed switch) but you need to make the cable.

It's raining today so I'm going to try and get it ready for a test ride tomorrow. Also thinking of doing a quick video of the build as well as some of the bring up process of the mobipus controller as I've been getting a few messages over the past week asking about it.
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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by Geargrind » Dec 01 2018 1:22pm

I ordered a bunch of those cells , its been 18 days and they still haven't even moved from being supposedly packed and ready to be shipped out..

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Re: Another Stealth bomber (clone) build

Post by shortcircuit911 » Dec 02 2018 8:38pm

@gearsgrind I ordered some 18650s on 11/11 and still haven't seen them so I fully expect to wait a month before I see them.

Well after tinkering on and off all weekend I was able to get the motor to spin on the bike, it's Alive!

There is still some tuning that needs to happen before I can really rip, so the bring up process will be a bit slow. These controllers really don't have a lot of videos on youtube or info out there, so there were a couple small things I had to figure out. SamD has also been great at helping me out, just sucks he's down under and I'm in Cali (up at 2:30am getting tips from Sam). I made a quick video on the controller, just shows it sitting next to the bike after bringing it up for the first time. I'll probably make some more later on showing how to connect to it and start changing things and what not. I did go for a quick test ride to make sure there wasn't anything terribly wrong, all seemed good other than it cutting out (could've been BMS). Still lots of work to do, I need to get the controller and contactor mounted and finish up the wiring. So pumped I was able to get a quick ride in, I quickly mashed the throttle a bit, and there was some power there, can't wait to get this thing tuned. More to come as always.


https://youtu.be/F7CyA5kuYpo

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