Proper setup for touring?

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toureasyman   1 mW

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Proper setup for touring?

Post by toureasyman » Aug 18 2018 11:35pm

I recently bought a long wheelbase recumbent touring bike I wish to outfit with Ebike components. I will be using for loaded touring on the east coast, so lots of hills. I decided on a Mac 10T or 12T geared hub for 700c rear and jumbo shark 52v battery from em3ev.com. Bike weight and gear plus my weight would be 300 lbs. I would be using the motor primarily for starting from stop to 12 mph cruising speed whereby I would take over pedaling and also as assist on hills. I liked the freewheeling feature of this hub over the cogging effect of direct drive hubs. I would need a range of about 75 miles per day out of the battery. Do I have a decent setup chosen or have I not considered something?
I have looked at mid drives but there isn’t enough room for it on this particular bike.
Last edited by toureasyman on Aug 19 2018 1:00pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by Chalo » Aug 19 2018 12:28am

You need 75 miles per day out of the battery, or 75 miles total per day? You make it sound like you'll be working to make most of the miles. If that's the case, it's a matter of your own fitness and commitment that none of us can guess.

In my casual observation, Tour Easy is one of those recumbents that doesn't significantly improve upon a normal bike in terms of efficiency. So maybe you should consult the speed and power calculator at Kreuzotter.de to better inform the results of your best guesses. Once you have a good grasp of your power requirements with and without the motor, you can fiddle with the Grin hub motor simulator to estimate range.

For what it's worth, I think the MAC is a great choice of motor if you intend to log many of your miles without its help.
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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by donn » Aug 19 2018 2:08am

I'm too new at this to offer sage advice, but ... after riding my 260 lbs of Ryan Vanguard long wheelbase recumbent plus me around a bit, I find that I'm not riding quite like I thought I would. (For example, I changed gears today ... only twice. Is that weird? It sure wasn't my plan to be riding around town, up hills and down, in one gear.) I put a big hub motor on mine, and would do the same again, but I'm sure you have figured out a good design there, and the only thing you can do is jump on it and see.

I'm going to clean up my Zzipper fairing and mount it, at least for anything long range. I like to ride 18-20mph, and the streamlining helps. In the electric parts, I'd like to be able to use the cruise feature of my computer, if I can connect the throttle to the computer and split the connection from the "e-brake" to both the controller and the computer. The throttle is for whatever reason a lot harder to work in a smooth, steady way than my motorcycle throttle, and I can picture it being a pain on a long grade out in the country. With that setup the computer can take that job over, until the next time you touch the brake.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by amberwolf » Aug 19 2018 2:30am

donn wrote:
Aug 19 2018 2:08am
The throttle is for whatever reason a lot harder to work in a smooth, steady way than my motorcycle throttle, and I can picture it being a pain on a long grade out in the country.
it's probably a "speed" (PWM) throttle, rather than a power or current or torque throttle.

If you use a controller that response to throttle input by directly modulating phase current instead, it'll be much more responsive and easier to control.

If you have a Cycle Analyst v3.x, you can set it up as torque (current) throttle, and it'll be similar to a controller made to respond this way, except that it's monitoring battery current (instead of phase current) and using that plus your throttle input to compute what to send to the controller as a throttle signal, so it's not *quite* the same as a controller that monitors it's own phase current and modifies it based on your throttle input.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by motomech » Aug 19 2018 4:01am

toureasyman wrote:
Aug 18 2018 11:35pm
I recently bought a long wheelbase recumbent touring bike I wish to outfit with Ebike components. I will be using for loaded touring on the east coast, so lots of hills. I decided on a Mac 10T or 12T geared hub for 700c rear and jumbo shark 52v battery from e3emv.com. Bike weight and gear plus my weight would be 300 lbs. I would be using the motor primarily for starting from stop to 12 mph cruising speed whereby I would take over pedaling and also as assist on hills. I liked the freewheeling feature of this hub over the cogging effect of direct drive hubs. I would need a range of about 75 miles per day out of the battery. Do I have a decent setup chosen or have I not considered something?
I have looked at mid drives but there isn’t enough room for it on this particular bike.
The idea that one can use the motor to get up to cruising speed and take over w/ the legs, although common to those who have yet to ride an Ebike, is not practical, especially on a rig weighing 300 Lb.s. Even though a geared motor free-wheels w/ only a sm. amount of resistance, all that weight makes for very tuff pedaling. A very fit cyclist on a road bike, w/ a sm. mini-motor and a sm. battery pack can do it, but that's about it.
The way to do it is to stay on the motor all the time and cut back the power to just short of the desired cruise speed and add a mph or two w/ the legs. The simplest way to do that on long straights is to set the cruise using the speed limiting function of the controller. Then there is PAS, which in stop and go riding can be a real blessing. A simple 3-speed PAS that comes w/ a square wave controller works well enough on a system of low power/low speed, but as power/speed goes up, a 5-level Current limited PAS, like that that comes w/ the newer line-up sine wave controllers or a Cycle Analyst is the way to go.
Speaking of speed, there is no reason to go into the build w/ a cruise goal of 12 mph. Even using a "low-speed" motor, the 52 Volts will have the motor well below the best rpm for efficiency. Add to this, the wind resistance really starts to become a factor as speeds start to approach 20 mph, there is little to be gained while boring the rider to tears and leaving him/her w/ the feeling of not getting anywhere. I have found the 18 mph to 22 mph range to be a nice zone, slow enough as not to confuse traffic, but fast enough to be entertaining and generating a feeling of making progress.
Last edited by motomech on Aug 19 2018 4:14am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by motomech » Aug 19 2018 4:12am

Also, to go 75 miles on one charge would require between 37 to 50 Amp hours of capacity, a very heavy pack indeed. Since most riders would take a break somewhere along the line, limiting the pack to 30 Amp hours or so and carrying an on-board charger would probably be a better approach. The Mean Well HLG series of power supplies make good opportunity chargers, as they are potted and can stand the rigures of the road.
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'03 Rocky Mountain Edge 2WD 260 Q100H frt and Ezee V1 rear 2 Elifebike 20A & 25A 9-FET controllers 12S/10Ah Multistar Lipo rear 4Ah Turnigy frt Luna Cyclops Extra lite Alex 24DM rims, Crazy Bobs run ghetto tubeless. 25 mph. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A
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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by toureasyman » Aug 19 2018 10:13am

I honestly thought I could get a constructive analysis here on this forum. Instead, all I got was a lot of negativity regarding my ideas for my touring bike. For the individual who believes this bike is not more “efficient “ than a regular bike, it is more efficient, but I bought it because it is more comfortable than a regular bike. The world speed record for a bicycle was performed on the aluminum version of this bike, not that I care. I did 45 miles on this bike yesterday and felt like I had done 3 miles. It was great.
As far as 300 lbs being too heavy to pedal, I weigh 210 lbs, the bike weighs 30 lbs,and my gear weighs 40 lbs. I can pedal this weight just fine for 75 miles per day without assist. So why all of a sudden is adding 15-20 lbs to the setup so unrealistic? Pedaling a heavy bike on the flats takes very little extra effort once the bike is at speed.
The Mac 10T is a reduced gearing hub, 5 to 1 ratio if I’m not mistaken. So why is 12-15 mph too slow for this motor? It’s geared for torque, not speed. If I wanted speed, I would just do my touring on a motorcycle, not a bicycle. I LIKE seeing the country at 12-15 mph. I’m in no rush. I just thought it might be nice to have a little assist for the hills and to get my bike up to speed.
I’m pretty sure I read there is no friction when not using the geared hub. It freewheels, unlike DD hubs.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by Chalo » Aug 19 2018 10:47am

toureasyman wrote:
Aug 19 2018 10:13am
For the individual who believes this bike is not more “efficient “ than a regular bike, it is more efficient, but I bought it because it is more comfortable than a regular bike.
That's a fine reason to accept its tradeoffs. I pointed that out not to hurt your feelings, but to help keep you from making faulty assumptions when using the calculator tools. Efficiency has everything to do with range, and your question concerns range.

By the way, my quick check at the Kreuzotter power and speed calculator gives the exact same speed result for a drop bar bike ridden sitting up with hands on the bar tops, as a Tour Easy type recumbent (with the same weight and power). So it's not just me pointing that out.
Last edited by Chalo on Aug 19 2018 11:00am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by Warren » Aug 19 2018 10:56am

I have only one comment. I assume your LWB recumbent has a 20" front, just because most do. If that is the case, and you are planning to use the motor only at low speeds with a big load, I would definitely have gone for a front motor.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by toureasyman » Aug 19 2018 11:50am

Chalo wrote:
Aug 19 2018 10:47am
toureasyman wrote:
Aug 19 2018 10:13am
For the individual who believes this bike is not more “efficient “ than a regular bike, it is more efficient, but I bought it because it is more comfortable than a regular bike.
That's a fine reason to accept its tradeoffs. I pointed that out not to hurt your feelings, but to help keep you from making faulty assumptions when using the calculator tools. Efficiency has everything to do with range, and your question concerns range.

By the way, my quick check at the Kreuzotter power and speed calculator gives the exact same speed result for a drop bar bike ridden sitting up with hands on the bar tops, as a Tour Easy type recumbent (with the same weight and power). So it's not just me pointing that out.
What exactly are you pointing out? That there are no trade offs? No hurt feelings here my friend. With recumbents, there is less wind resistance, ability to place more power to the pedals, no sore neck, no sore back, no numb hands or fingers, better visibility, more relaxed position, smoother ride due to longer wheelbase. Drawbacks are that turning radius is larger and bike is less stable at very slow speeds, @7 mph or less. Since one who tours rarely encounters hairpin turns or slow crawls (except uphills), the positives far outweigh the negatives. Suggest you try borrowing one for a day. You’ll be convinced I’m sure. I own two recumbents, the TourEasy and a Catrike 559. My “regular” bike just collects dust now.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by toureasyman » Aug 19 2018 11:57am

Warren wrote:
Aug 19 2018 10:56am
I have only one comment. I assume your LWB recumbent has a 20" front, just because most do. If that is the case, and you are planning to use the motor only at low speeds with a big load, I would definitely have gone for a front motor.
Everything I’ve read so far counters your position. If only what you propose were true! I would love it! Less expensive, easier to repair a flat, etc. The last thing I need, however, is the front wheel spinning out while climbing a hill with just a little gravel, sand, or moisture on the road. Everything I’ve researched so far says the best efficiency is achieved by placing the power at the rear wheel for loaded touring. Thank you for your input, though.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by donn » Aug 19 2018 12:00pm

I will second motomech's notion of a good ride, the motor pushing all the time but sharing the load with your legs. Depending on the load, that could be a very minimal battery drain. My throttle governs hub speed (apparently), so if my pedal input is enough to maintain that speed, it's 0W from the battery. Of course, I'm hauling the dread DD hub motor, so it's a different experience, but just consider the possibility that you will come to crave that ride. At whatever speed - that depends on the circumstances, there are parts of this world where for sight seeing purposes I would like to be going about 1000 mph, but I know what you mean, when I went on a couple of trips over the mountains, the slow several thousand foot climbs were more interesting (in a good way) than the descents on the other side (which were interesting in a more hair raising way.)

I'm not sure though, why motomech requires a 37 Ah battery to go 75 miles. I'm riding in city, going faster and generally not very economical at all, and getting 10 Wh / mile, which seems to me would easily stretch a 52V battery half that size 75 miles. Different type of motor, but you should be able to do at least as well.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by Chalo » Aug 19 2018 12:17pm

Front and rear wheels are equally efficient in terms of transmitting motor power to the ground. But hub motors work better and more efficiently in smaller diameter wheels, especially when the intended speed is low. So if you have wheels of different sizes, putting the hub motor in the smaller wheel makes good sense.

The screwy weight distribution of a LWB recumbent might lead to wheel slip, as you note. It's a matter of how much static weight rests on the front.
toureasyman wrote:
Aug 19 2018 11:50am
With recumbents, there is less wind resistance,
That's what I'm pointing out is not always true. Especially the "comfortable" kind of recumbents usually have just as much as drag as a conventional bicycle. This is directly relevant to your range, speed, and battery requirements.

I've been a regular cyclist for over thirty years, and I've worked in bike shops starting over 25 years ago. I've had plenty of time to try out recumbents, including multi-day rentals. While I've never ridden a fast recumbent, I'm familiar with LWB and MWB types from personal experience. It doesn't surprise me at all that after all this time they still get very little market traction, most especially in places where lots of people ride bikes for transportation.

For special needs, niche applications, or folks with certain kinds of disabilities, sure, 'bents certainly have their place. However, the usual disability I see recumbents used for is the middle aged beardy guy inability to acknowledge that the solution to the problem was tackled by smarter people and already pretty well optimized long before we were born.

As for the discomforts of normal bikes that 'bent riders talk about so much, most cyclists who bother to fit their bikes to themselves don't suffer them. But for 6 hour rides, doing it in a chair starts to look more reasonable.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by donn » Aug 19 2018 12:24pm

Note that a dd hub motor is an additional 15 lbs or so right on the axle. Still not anything like the load on the rear, but it would sure be a lot more than what it is now.

I have a beard, for what it's worth. I don't know, I'm way into riding my recumbent bicycle, but I wouldn't claim it's anything special for efficiency. The lady of the house rides an upright, and on a descent she may coast faster, depends - she's a much more compact person, for one thing, I'm kind of rangy. The Zzipper does make a difference, though, when that's on.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by toureasyman » Aug 19 2018 12:40pm

donn wrote:
Aug 19 2018 12:24pm
Note that a dd hub motor is an additional 15 lbs or so right on the axle. Still not anything like the load on the rear, but it would sure be a lot more than what it is now.

I have a beard, for what it's worth. I don't know, I'm way into riding my recumbent bicycle, but I wouldn't claim it's anything special for efficiency. The lady of the house rides an upright, and on a descent she may coast faster, depends - she's a much more compact person, for one thing, I'm kind of rangy. The Zzipper does make a difference, though, when that's on.
OK. We're talking about a geared motor, though, significantly less weight than monster direct drives. I get the wheel size advantage, but none of that matters when the wheel starts slipping and spinning. Kind of like a trucks rear wheels spinning in the mud. At that point, what's under the hood doesn't really matter.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by toureasyman » Aug 19 2018 12:48pm

Chalo wrote:
Aug 19 2018 12:17pm
Front and rear wheels are equally efficient in terms of transmitting motor power to the ground. But hub motors work better and more efficiently in smaller diameter wheels, especially when the intended speed is low. So if you have wheels of different sizes, putting the hub motor in the smaller wheel makes good sense.

The screwy weight distribution of a LWB recumbent might lead to wheel slip, as you note. It's a matter of how much static weight rests on the front.
toureasyman wrote:
Aug 19 2018 11:50am
With recumbents, there is less wind resistance,
That's what I'm pointing out is not always true. Especially the "comfortable" kind of recumbents usually have just as much as drag as a conventional bicycle. This is directly relevant to your range, speed, and battery requirements.

I've been a regular cyclist for over thirty years, and I've worked in bike shops starting over 25 years ago. I've had plenty of time to try out recumbents, including multi-day rentals. While I've never ridden a fast recumbent, I'm familiar with LWB and MWB types from personal experience. It doesn't surprise me at all that after all this time they still get very little market traction, most especially in places where lots of people ride bikes for transportation.

For special needs, niche applications, or folks with certain kinds of disabilities, sure, 'bents certainly have their place. However, the usual disability I see recumbents used for is the middle aged beardy guy inability to acknowledge that the solution to the problem was tackled by smarter people and already pretty well optimized long before we were born.

As for the discomforts of normal bikes that 'bent riders talk about so much, most cyclists who bother to fit their bikes to themselves don't suffer them. But for 6 hour rides, doing it in a chair starts to look more reasonable.

Image
Chalo. I'm not here to discuss the advantages of recumbents. That's getting off topic. You already mentioned that my choice of motor is a good one for my needs - the Mac 10T or 12T. I just wanted that verified. The TourEasy has two parallel and horizontal bars that run from the bottom bracket to the rear of the bike - perfect for placing a long, heavy battery like a jumbo shark 52V, AND it sits way down low so as not to throw off center of gravity. In fact, it might even aid in stabilization of the bike.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by Warren » Aug 19 2018 12:53pm

toureasyman wrote:
Aug 19 2018 11:57am
Everything I’ve read so far counters your position.
Putting the motor, controller, and battery at the front will reduce the load on the already overloaded rear wheel of your LWB, as well as giving you a much more sensible gear ratio for that motor to pull 300 pounds slowly uphill.

I don't know where you have been on the internet. But I have been building, and riding recumbents since the late 1980's. I have over 48K miles on electric assist recumbents over 7 years, in mountainous Virginia, to date. There are lots of folks running up to 1000 watts through 20" front wheels on LWB recumbents with no problem whatsoever.

https://www.electricbike.com/recumbent/

https://www.bentrideronline.com/message ... p?t=133472

http://www.evalbum.com/4800

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by toureasyman » Aug 19 2018 1:15pm

donn wrote:
Aug 19 2018 12:00pm
I will second motomech's notion of a good ride, the motor pushing all the time but sharing the load with your legs. Depending on the load, that could be a very minimal battery drain. My throttle governs hub speed (apparently), so if my pedal input is enough to maintain that speed, it's 0W from the battery. Of course, I'm hauling the dread DD hub motor, so it's a different experience, but just consider the possibility that you will come to crave that ride. At whatever speed - that depends on the circumstances, there are parts of this world where for sight seeing purposes I would like to be going about 1000 mph, but I know what you mean, when I went on a couple of trips over the mountains, the slow several thousand foot climbs were more interesting (in a good way) than the descents on the other side (which were interesting in a more hair raising way.)

I'm not sure though, why motomech requires a 37 Ah battery to go 75 miles. I'm riding in city, going faster and generally not very economical at all, and getting 10 Wh / mile, which seems to me would easily stretch a 52V battery half that size 75 miles. Different type of motor, but you should be able to do at least as well.
OK, imagine this scenario: You're 55 miles into the day, it's 90 degrees, 90 percent humidity, your bike seems heavier by the minute, and your motel is still 28 miles ahead, and you have two big hills ahead, each about 1 1/2 miles long, and your battery is dead because you used it to just "cruise along" at 18 mph earlier that day. Sorry, but I'd like to think I would be very frugal with my use of the stored energy available. I appreciate all the inputs, though.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by toureasyman » Aug 19 2018 1:36pm

Warren wrote:
Aug 19 2018 12:53pm
toureasyman wrote:
Aug 19 2018 11:57am
Everything I’ve read so far counters your position.
Putting the motor, controller, and battery at the front will reduce the load on the already overloaded rear wheel of your LWB, as well as giving you a much more sensible gear ratio for that motor to pull 300 pounds slowly uphill.

I don't know where you have been on the internet. But I have been building, and riding recumbents since the late 1980's. I have over 48K miles on electric assist recumbents over 7 years, in mountainous Virginia, to date. There are lots of folks running up to 1000 watts through 20" front wheels on LWB recumbents with no problem whatsoever.

https://www.electricbike.com/recumbent/

https://www.bentrideronline.com/message ... p?t=133472

http://www.evalbum.com/4800
Last edited by toureasyman on Aug 19 2018 8:29pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by Warren » Aug 19 2018 1:40pm

toureasyman wrote:
Aug 19 2018 11:50am
With recumbents, there is less wind resistance, ability to place more power to the pedals,
Sorry. I don't agree with Chalo when it comes to his blanket condemnation of recumbents. But both of these claims need comment.

Some recumbents are very slippery: specifically, laid back, high bottom bracket recumbents. The Tour Easy is not one of them. That bike needs a full size Zipper fairing to match an unfaired high bottom bracket bike. I got to talk to Fast Freddy, and Gardner 25 years ago at a race. Freddie could make a Hot Wheels look fast. The bikes they were racing were fully faired...nothing like an unfaired Tour Easy.

As to power production: world class bike racers, who set world speed records in streamliners at Battle Mountain, have done dyno testing in the upright, and recumbent position. They were able to produce more power in the upright position. At high speeds, aerodynamics are more important than slightly less power output.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by Warren » Aug 19 2018 1:48pm

Man, I don't see why you bothered to come on Endless Sphere and ask for folks opinions. You obviously have no use for them. I certainly won't be offering you any more.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by donn » Aug 19 2018 2:02pm

toureasyman wrote:
Aug 19 2018 1:15pm
donn wrote:
Aug 19 2018 12:00pm
I will second motomech's notion of a good ride, the motor pushing all the time but sharing the load with your legs. Depending on the load, that could be a very minimal battery drain. My throttle governs hub speed (apparently), so if my pedal input is enough to maintain that speed, it's 0W from the battery. Of course, I'm hauling the dread DD hub motor, so it's a different experience, but just consider the possibility that you will come to crave that ride. At whatever speed - that depends on the circumstances, there are parts of this world where for sight seeing purposes I would like to be going about 1000 mph, but I know what you mean, when I went on a couple of trips over the mountains, the slow several thousand foot climbs were more interesting (in a good way) than the descents on the other side (which were interesting in a more hair raising way.)
...

Sorry, but I'd like to think I would be very frugal with my use of the stored energy available.
Suit yourself, I'd like to think you'd be approaching this with a little less rigid notions of what you're going to enjoy doing and how that relates to a particular setup. Note however that when I said "so if my pedal input is enough to maintain that speed, it's 0W from the battery." 0 Watts is not particularly extravagant.
I appreciate all the inputs, though.
Despite the combative responses.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by Warren » Aug 19 2018 3:13pm

OK. On the off chance that anybody else ever wants to put a front motor on a Tour Easy, and checks this thread: I just went out in the shed to look at my friend's steel Tour Easy.
Mary's Tour Easy.jpg
It uses a cromo fork built up from a crown, fork legs, and fork ends intended for a road bike. More rake has been added to reduce flop with the slack head angle. It has V-brake braze-ons added for the 20" wheel. There is a rear brake bridge added part way down the fork for a fender mount. It has a 1" steerer.

This has worked on Tour Easys for decades so I wouldn't be concerned. That said, it is not a great situation for a front drive bike. I would want a fork intended for a disc brake, as the loads are similar to those applied by a motor, and preferable tandem rated. Unfortunately, none of that is readily available in a 1" steerer fork.

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Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by toureasyman » Aug 19 2018 8:42pm

Warren wrote:
Aug 19 2018 3:13pm
OK. On the off chance that anybody else ever wants to put a front motor on a Tour Easy, and checks this thread: I just went out in the shed to look at my friend's steel Tour Easy.

Mary's Tour Easy.jpg

It uses a cromo fork built up from a crown, fork legs, and fork ends intended for a road bike. More rake has been added to reduce flop with the slack head angle. It has V-brake braze-ons added for the 20" wheel. There is a rear brake bridge added part way down the fork for a fender mount. It has a 1" steerer.

This has worked on Tour Easys for decades so I wouldn't be concerned. That said, it is not a great situation for a front drive bike. I would want a fork intended for a disc brake, as the loads are similar to those applied by a motor, and preferable tandem rated. Unfortunately, none of that is readily available in a 1" steerer fork.
Thank you for doing that. I was a little concerned about fork failure from torque. I think I'll go with geared rear hub, but maybe move from MAC 10T to MAC 12T to give a little more torque to the 700c wheel. The battery will be as far forward as possible (as in the photo link you provided) so as not to substantially add to the rear wheel weight. The Jumbo Shark battery from EM3EV is rated at 52V, 14.8 amp hours. I'm thinking that should be enough power to get me through the touring day.

Stu Summer   10 W

10 W
Posts: 95
Joined: Apr 27 2016 8:01pm
Location: Hillsdale, NY

Re: Proper setup for touring?

Post by Stu Summer » Aug 19 2018 8:53pm

donn wrote:
Aug 19 2018 2:08am
I'm too new at this to offer sage advice, but ... after riding my 260 lbs of Ryan Vanguard long wheelbase recumbent plus me around a bit, I find that I'm not riding quite like I thought I would. (For example, I changed gears today ... only twice. Is that weird? It sure wasn't my plan to be riding around town, up hills and down, in one gear.) I put a big hub motor on mine, and would do the same again, but I'm sure you have figured out a good design there, and the only thing you can do is jump on it and see.

I'm going to clean up my Zzipper fairing and mount it, at least for anything long range. I like to ride 18-20mph, and the streamlining helps. In the electric parts, I'd like to be able to use the cruise feature of my computer, if I can connect the throttle to the computer and split the connection from the "e-brake" to both the controller and the computer. The throttle is for whatever reason a lot harder to work in a smooth, steady way than my motorcycle throttle, and I can picture it being a pain on a long grade out in the country. With that setup the computer can take that job over, until the next time you touch the brake.
Donn, I would sure like to see a photo of your set up. I bought a Ryan Vanguard this summer, already mounted with a 500w cyclone mid drive. I am just about to pull the trigger on a Luna Mac 6t for the front in hope of: 1. raising top speed to 30, especially up gradual hills and 2. increasing stability/decreasing squirrelliness at the front end.

Also, I would love to see how you are going to mount your fairing. I have an old fairing laying around from a df but haven't wanted to spend the time (or money$$$$) on a mount. I have strong experience on my df ebike of the huge effect of the fairing on efficiency and comfort.
2013 DB Haanjo Commuter with BBSHD and Zzipper fairing
Marin Rift Zone FS with BBSHD
Kysmo "lab" bike with 350w hub motor
Ryan Vanguard recumbent LWB with a 36v Cyclone 350w middrive and a 56v MAC 5t in the front hub.

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