Conversion to electric motorcycle

Dear ladies and fellows:
I have been working for a couple of months to see if I can figure out a way to convert a downhill bicycle into an electric cargo bike that the California DMV will license as an electric motorcycle that can go on the freeway. My vendor says he can hook me up with a Crystalyte Crown Motor with a 24 mosfet Infineon controller that will do 70 plus mph with a 150 volts. I can't find a battery that size but maybe I can hook up batteries in series that will equal that. The guy at Power velocity told me he thinks that it is foolish to use a heavy hub motor going that kind of speed because if you go through a pothole the inertia  will really throw you . So there are so so many things to consider to build such a bike technically. 
I think the technical stuff might be easier than the legal stuff.  The fellow from Power velocity also said that he's tried to get such a vehicle licensed and the DMV is very uncooperative. They say the bike has to have a motor and a clutch and their comment also is that the legality of riding on the freeway is between you and the policeman because it's really a gray area. I have to admit I had one highway patrolman on the phone one day and he was really scaring me.
I guess I must be a glutton for punishment. But one reason I'm a vegetarian is to lower my carbon footprint so this project is also part of that same alignment. I might end up giving up. Anyone have any thoughts or encouragement otherwise?
 thanks so much
bicyclemichaela

I'd say there are roughly two reasons you might want to dive into a project like that.

One is that the objective is something better than what you could buy.

The other is that you love doing stuff like this even if the outcome is trash, not acceptable to the authorities, kills you, etc.

If you just want an electric motorcycle, it's much, much more of a sure thing to just buy one. You will be safer on it, and all you need to do is send in the title paperwork and start riding. I see a sort of trailie looking Zero in Orange for $7K, [edit] on craigslist.org, [/edit] there might be better places to look.

Anyway, as for clutches, you might check around for specs on various electric vehicles that have been licensed there. Do they all have clutches? If not, there's obviously some opening you could pursue.

But the reason my motorcycle is 600 lbs, is because that's what it takes to put together something that works well at 70mph. Brakes, wheels, shocks, frame, all very heavy - and that weight itself contributes to a stable feeling. Freeway air is turbulent and you're hitting it pretty hard at 70. [edit] It occurs to me that in itself, traveling at 70mph is kind of a high carbon footprint practice. I can't dial in a configuration on the simulator that does it, but just trying to extrapolate from what I can simulate, I'd guess it might take over 10 times the power load as riding at 20mph. Since a lot of our electric utilities actually come from burning fossil fuels, it's something to think about.[/edit]

I agree with ( Valad ? ) at Powervelocity.

For what you want to do , you can save allot of time by just buying a Sur-Ron ,

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=89902

putting the necessary DOT parts on it that all motorcycles do, then taking it to the CHP for check off, then off to the DMV for your high California Registration ( Tax ).
After you find a insurance company that will insure it as a motorcycle. There has to be one or more insurance companies that insure it. Let us know what Insurance Company Will.

I see having to do the same with a 3 wheel motorcycle in the future, ( Once I/we can find some people/students to Open Source Design a 3 wheel tilting Delta Trike/MC )

What is the Reason that you are not just looking for a used Zero Electric Motorcycle ?

Bicycle on the freeway. Nope.

Technically, it could be done-- but it's a terrible idea and would require an elite level of preventive maintenance and repair. Even if you can make it happen, you'll spend a good deal more money on it than if you use an electric motorcycle, or an electric conversion of a gas engine motorcycle.

I don't know about California, but in Texas, even gas bikes under 250cc aren't allowed on the freeway. So whatever the minimum criteria are where you live, why not get a loud stinky gas bike that meets those criteria, and convert it to electric? It will come with a VIN and a title that simplify your project greatly. It'll be much more competent at speed, and much better suited to carry the large heavy battery it will require. A dual-sport motorcycle would be a relatively light, narrow, simple starting point for conversion. You can probably pick up a specimen with a wrecked engine for a song.

SO I assume the reason for not getting the Zero is the man just doesn't want to pay and this is supposed to be painfully cheap. Maybe also some desire to just plain build his own, can't fault that.

Is the choice of a downhill bike because you already have one? A low cost Kona, etc.? If you wanted a Stealth clone, sure, good choice. But you say 'Cargo Bike.' Meaning what? An extension on the rear wheel? And you want to take this to freeway speed?

California used to not allow a bike under 150cc on the freeway, wouldn't surprise me if they bumped it to match Texas. This is NOT a gray area. Don't know for sure, maybe there's a different license plate on a moped that'll stand out to the CHP. I don't think there's anything about the downhill bike you might use that makes it ready for this.

These guys have a collection of interesting NEW motorcycles under $2k. Street, Dirt, Grom clone, what would you like? So the engine. tank, etc. are going to sell after you yank them off, you have a new glider cheap. It's a frame the DMV is willing to license for the freeway because it is built to suit that sort of riding. Time to give this some serious thought.

https://bananapowersports.com/collections/250cc-dirt-bikes

In California a Motorcycle, or a Scooter , must be at least 250 cc or more in order to legally drive/ride on the Freeway.

There is a different looking license for a Moped last time I saw one. However any CHP officer would have be right up at your tail in order to see the difference. Here in California the CHP usually does not mess with you on a motorcycle unless you are riding really stupid.
Your local police could be different.

The best way to Lower your Carbon Footprint and still go on the freeway with a two wheel vehicle is to just buy a used 300cc Ninja ( Kawasaki 300c Ninja )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ninja_300
or the Honda CBR the 250 or newer 300 cc cbr.
http://powersports.honda.com/2017/cbr300r.aspx
With either of those small beginner motorcycles you would be getting 60 mpg or more. they are engineered and made to be safe at 70 mph . And you can take it to a welder to have them make you some hard shell saddle bags and the frame for them.

If you really want to go the electric route, then buy one of the above small beginner motorcycles used, sell the engine /exhaust / tank/ radiator etc. and have someone convert it to electric.
There is no Smog Check on motorcycles so by converting an existing motorcycle that has current registration you would just need to put it into your name, pay the taxes and transfer fees and any other fee that might be new.

I have test ridden those motorcycles and scooters, the brakes are substandard, and that is putting it politely , and the suspension is the same,
better and cheaper in the long run to just buy a used generation 1 250 cc honda or kawasaki, or the generation 2 300cc honda or kawasaki for the same price at least that way you get quality components.

Dauntless said:

These guys have a collection of interesting NEW motorcycles under $2k. Street, Dirt, Grom clone, what would you like? So the engine. tank, etc. are going to sell after you yank them off, you have a new glider cheap. It's a frame the DMV is willing to license for the freeway because it is built to suit that sort of riding. Time to give this some serious thought.

https://bananapowersports.com/collections/250cc-dirt-bikes

Click to expand...

It can be built to ride safe and good at that speed, but it will be expansive and unlikely to be approved for licencing. As for cargo, not a chance. Pulling a trailer maybe, but not something I would do at that speed with a lightweight bike. You need to realize that a DH bike, even the best, will need mods and upgrades to make a good ride with the extra weight. A big hub (better to use a fast winding and keep under 100v IMO) can do it easy, but does require suspension mod and expert tuning. My current street bike does ride very good and safe at 70 mph, but it is my 8th build and I did spend a lot of time and money on it. I would not ride it on the highway, but for short distance, no cargo.

I too, believe it is much better to buy a motorcycle. I wouldn't choose a Zero, probably spending much more for my requirements to ride the highway with cargo.

Thank you so much all you nice people who made your very thoughtful replies to my proposal. The reason I am trying to build a bicycle to go that speed is because I want the pedals so I can pedal along. It will be geared so that I can pedal at 67 mph the same rate I do on my bicycle now at 30 mph. I never had the experience while I'm riding a bicycle down the road of falling asleep but have that many times in my car. My last motorcycle was so long ago I really can't remember but am very afraid of falling asleep at the wheel. So the bicycle will keep me awake and also keep me active which is important for good health. But if I crash that won't be very healthy. So can electrifying any of those motorcycles be done with pedals and derailleurs and so forth?
Another reason for wanting to convert the bicycle is just because I ride a bicycle now that goes 40 mph. So if I get a full suspension bicycle I should be able to go 60 mph. Most of the time when I drive on the freeway I go in the right lane and only drive about 50 anyway.
I think electric bicycles have such good potential for reducing carbon emission that I think if I can ride one on the freeway it will make good publicity for them. On the other hand it might just piss some people off and I might get run over.
I have an email over to the Department of Transportation motorcycle manufacturers people to see if they can guide me in this endeavor. And one area that I don't know much about is how to set up the suspension so that it will handle well not to mention exactly how to make the brakes as strong as will be needed.
I am planning on bending some rectangular aluminum or steel tubing and going up the triangle tubes forward and back and then bending straight back and straightforward on each side of the bike frame to form sprung front and rear racks. That is where I will put my batteries and also where I will carry my backpack lunch and other assorted items that is why I need a cargo bike. The cargo is really only about 30 lb but I just don't like wearing a big backpack.
If I could spend $10,000 and get a motorcycle with a 125 mile range that would be so awesome. Even if I had to spend double that if I was successful in building a reliable vehicle I would much much rather have that than a brand new Zero motorcycle. It's the uniqueness of the thing and like I said presenting how useful and reasonable it is for people to ride electric bikes actually in replacement of gas powered motor vehicles. Maybe it's a mission. I hope I don't go broke on my mission and the worst things happen.
I could use some suggestions about where to get brake lights headlights dot brakes turn signals Etc. I'm looking at using 18 inch steel rims front and rear and find some moped tires that have the proper load rating for the weight that I'm planning to have my bike (220 lbs plus me). When I get the whole list of parts together I'll fill out all the forms that I need and go down to the DMV and see what they say. I have an article by an attorney about how people can get title on a chopper that was totally made from parts and never had any title. I know that's kind of a lot of extra hassle but I don't know if that will make the project just ridiculous or just some more extra work. I don't mind the extra work because it'll be worth the extra reward of having done something which might be a unique contribution.

Pedal input is useless when you have the power to do 70mph. Think you can help 15 horses pushing them?

Falling asleep on a motorcycle? Possible for some but very unlikely, unless you follow someone like a robot.

Anyway, some devices are available to prevent that:

[youtube]UMJLNWqJ0iw[/youtube]

41 years ago at the age of 18 I fell asleep while driving to Phoenix from Flagstaff early in the morning. The road curved and I kept going straight. I woke up from the noise made by my tires running over the the road's warning strips. But it was too late. I turned the wheel of my non-power steered '65 Mustang and felt no resistance. That was because I was air born. I had one thought, "Shit!". Then I hit rocks about 30 feet below the highway level at about 50 mph.

I had no seat belt. I "ate" the top of the steering wheel with the teeth of my lower jaw and the rest of the force was spread across my chest against the steering wheel. I was lucky to walk away (literally - I kicked the car door open and climbed up to the side of the road) with a busted up lower face and most of my lower teeth smashed out of my jaw. But no broken jaw. I was very lucky that I didn't have more serious injuries or that I didn't hurt or kill someone else. What if the curve had gone the other direction?

I tell that story to make the point that I will never fall asleep driving again. Been there. Done that. The solution to avoiding that is pretty simple. Non-musical audio is a big help in keeping alert on long drives because it keeps your mind active by engaging it in what is being discussed. Music is generally not a good choice if you are tired. But I keep caffeine tablets in my car to avoid the tired feeling to begin with. I eat half a tab at a time if I either feel tired or if my heart rate drops below 60 bpm. And If I ever feel my head eyelids droop or if I even almost nod my head because I'm tired, I pull over. Period.

After that accident 41 years ago, I could only afford a cheap motorcycle. I bought and rode a Honda CB-125. I got rid of it in less than a year because I concluded that riding a motorcycle in traffic is fare more dangerous (especially at my age and lack of driving experience) than driving a car in a big city (Phoenix).

So, in short, I don't consider choosing a motorcycle as a good way to avoid the risk of falling asleep while driving. If that is your concern, there are better, safer alternatives than riding a borderline capable electric motorcycle on California freeways.

Don't misunderstand where I'm coming from, because I'm a lifelong cyclist, professional bicycle mechanic, and advocate for human powered transportation. I understand that you might see a public relations value to pedaling on the freeway. But you should know, if you don't already, that pedaling at speeds above about 35mph costs more energy as drag than you make at the pedals. I just checked the speed and power calculator at http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm , and with the assumptions I used, it says you need about 8900 mechanical watts to sustain 60mph if you pedal at 90rpm, but only about 8150W if you don't pedal. That's an entire extra horsepower that you'll need to produce to carry that speed, if you pedal.

8.9kW is twelve horsepower, by the way. It's a lot to channel through a bicycle's structure. The most powerful human athletes in the world can pedal a little over 2kW for a few seconds. You'll need more than four times that much just to sustain 60mph on a flat road in neutral wind. Child's play for almost any motorcycle, but so far outside the design parameters of a bicycle that it looks like a pretty reckless choice.

Also note that using the same assumptions, cruising at a steady 67mph takes about 12300W, and doing that for 125 miles (with no hill climbing or bucking headwinds) takes 23kWh [correction: 23kwh plus efficiency losses, realistically 30-35 kWh] of battery capacity. That's about 200 pounds [250-300 pounds] of cells, if you use the ones from a Tesla Model S. Add a container to house them in, and you're already [way] over your weight budget, before there's any motorcycle to put the battery in.

If you want a highway speed motorcycle with pedals, you have to grasp that bikes are draggy at speed. At freeway speed, it probably takes as much or more juice for your bike to hold its speed as it does for a heavy but aerodynamically efficient Tesla to ride alongside you. So you can go fast, or far, but not both.

What you are going to need is the type of gearing that the land speed velomobiles use when they go to Battle Mountain NV .

http://www.nevadatravel.net/event/world-human-powered-speed-challenge-battle-mountain-nevada/

For what you want to do I would forget about using peddling for any of the drive system
Instead ...
Have your crankset and chain go directly to a small motor that you have turned into a generator. the electricity that is generated by that generator goes directly into the battery pack.

DOT approved lights turn signals horn etc are very easy to find, your local motorcycle shop has them in stock, aftermarket ones. a mechanic can help you hook up the parts.
Chaparral Motorsports near to you probably has everything you would need .

Let me know about how to go about getting all the legal paperwork and all other things you need to do in order to get a motorcycle built from parts ... licensed here in Ca. I have been thinking about finding someone to fabricate a custom made three wheel hybrid motorcycle for me.

Use many of the design features that they made with the Velotilt .
( I would make one longer and more upright since an electric motor would be used )

For inspiration see this ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhv0jrsAW5w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxIL3hSwgJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA1BoVPPhow

Here is one way to change gears on a recumbent .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsVK93CfZGc

E-motorcycles are many now to choose from. I see no point building one, other than doing it very fancy, or very high performance, better than those already available. That is some serious research, time and cash.

On a DH bike, mod and built as a very good ultra lightweight motorcycle, riding the highway is fun but it is only a short trip to the next exit, drawing a lot of attention. If I ever pedal in that situation, it is slowly backward to amuse those staring at me. Then, I sure hope to get to the next exit before the police sees me. Highway boulevards are a short cut in the city, but they are crowded and I prefer riding the streets, where I have the performance advantage over the other users around.

It's been more than a few decades, since I last built a full custom that required a "builders title". These weren't common then either, but far easier than obtaining all you need today!

My best suggestion,... build (RE-build) around an established and titled base. This ONLY establishes titled (rightful) ownership. Easy if your building/RE-building around an established VIN numbered frame/chassis base that had previously been registered and used. NOT so easy if VIN is based on established engine number (not typical). A LOT of custom builds utilized extensively modified frame and chassis, so long as original VIN stamp was present. This did NOT exempt you from certain requirements of DOT certified parts, assemblies, and equipment which can be obscure and extensive. Of course this can make for a simple modification or conversion easy if entire base is all original to issued VIN.,... simply install a motor, battery and essentials, and get it registered.

A full custom build, with no established title, will be far more complicated today than several decades ago. To establish title of ownership, you'll need to present ALL receipts and documentation of all major components. That documentation had better include DOT certifications where needed OR, those components of custom build will need inspection, certification, and DOT approval,... NOT easily obtained. A certified frame/welder shop might be helpful in obtaining a frame certification to begin this VERY dauntless task and endeavor in jus securing a VIN!!! Your build title will also include your signature statement to minimum requirements. THEN, you'll likely need a DMV Safety Inspection and Approval. Finally, you may be able to get a vehicle registration,.... of course you'll need Ins. and THAT might also be difficult to obtain too on such custom builds today, again requiring extensive certification and documentations.

While it WAS once easy to do all this,.. extensive requirements and laws today make it difficult and costly now. Mostly for of matters public safety and liability purposes, we jus can't simply whip together a bunch of salvaged or junk parts into home welded creations to raise hell with, like that which was done with dunebuggies, motorcycles, chop jobs, etc..

With that said,... NO! You'll NOT get any DMV approval for a bicycle "conversion" to a motorcycle!!!

You MIGHT get DMV approval as a moped,... but probably not so easy either,.. it'll depend on local definitions, and most (not all) require a manufactured VIN'ed title. Even as a titled moped, most states prohibit highway use, regardless of capable speed. That leaves your bicycle or e-bike totally out of ANY consideration! Some states MAY no longer recognize your e-bike/bicycle as such, if it exceeds specific definition such as "...a speed in excess of 45mph" or "motor in excess of xxxxwatts or xxHP" in which your de fined as a motorcycle, and since you cannot meet DOT specs as a motorcycle, you become an "unlawful motorvehicle" prohibited from ANY public use. (Some may be acceptable for permitted or regulated ORV use only)

So while encouraging a unique full-custom creation of originality,... jus know such details are indeed far more demanding than the "technical stuff".

DRMousseau said:

Easy if your building/RE-building around an established VIN numbered frame/chassis base that had previously been registered and used. NOT so easy if VIN is based on established engine number (not typical).

Click to expand...

What would VIN based on established engine number mean?

Some older vehicles (mostly motorcycles) had engine number established VINs,... this was before a more unified VIN system was established in early 80's. These early VINs were typically manufacture serial numbers. Some vehicle manufactures had stamped same matching serial numbers on both frame, chassis, and engine,... some didn't. An engine based VIN will require that engine base as a part of that vehicle,... not practical if your replacing engine in the build/rebuild. Some builds/rebuilds on early VIN titles, may also allow for standards that are not acceptable today, i.e. lap belts on vehicles prior to 1984 and no seatbelts at all on certain vehicles prior to 1968. When essential VIN related parts were damaged beyond repair, the corresponding title was usually "scrapped" or "destroyed" and no longer usable.

Today's VINs are issued to ISO standards, and correspond to established safety standards at time of manufacture or as law has since changed, i.e. all vehicle tires must be DOT approved to date standards. VIN includes identifying information as well as a portion of vehicle serial number permanently stamped somewhere. Although your not likely to find anymore original antique tires in usable satisfactory condition today, and all new "replica" tires will be manufactured to latest acceptable DOT standards.

This jus all means,.... your gonna find it challenging to build new to current acceptable standards to qualify for a VIN.