Street-Legal BBSHD (in '250w' australia)

StuRat

100 W
Joined
Mar 15, 2018
Messages
121
I have just built up a Surly Troll with a BBSHD that I believe conforms to all the EN15194 rules that Australia uses.


These are the official wordings from the NSW state government in Australia To comply with EN 15194:
• The motor must be electric
• The maximum continuous power output of the motor cannot exceed 250 watts measured at the wheel Note: A motor that delivers 250 watts of continuous power can produce greater power for very short periods of time, which can be beneficial when pulling away at traffic lights or starting a hill climb.
• The rider must pedal the cycle to activate the motor*
• The motor must cut-off once the vehicle reaches 25 km/h, or sooner if the rider stops pedalling
• The vehicle must be certified by the manufacturer, and labelled as complying with EN 15194. The label must include the manufacturer’s name, the motor’s cut-off speed in km/h and its continuous rated power in watts.
*Pedalecs may be equipped with an optional low-speed start-up mode that allows the motor to power the cycle up to 6 km/h. This mode is activated by the user either when riding without pedalling or when the user is pushing the cycle.



So, I've changed the controller parameters to conform. Mainly the speed limit to 25km/h and the 'keep current' setting to 30, which makes the continuous current 30% of the nominal 1000w. Maybe this should be 25, but I gave some leeway for the fact that 250w is 'measured at the wheel'.

They also don't mention any peak power figure, so I left that at full 30amps. The bike gets up n going nicely, it's the continuous riding that is a learning curve, it's like virtual torque sensing, and I like it. The higher your cadence the less the motor helps, as your cadence slows down the motor helps more. It is much more noticeable with the low keep current setting. You will learn quickly how to play it.
The difference in battery range is huge! With factory settings I could do the 30km round trip to town and get home with 1 bar of battery left. With the new settings I only use 1 bar! So I could do 4 trips instead of 1! This is also attributed to the other settings of Start current, current decay, and slow start. If you want long range moreso than white knuckles I suggest winding these down.

I do have a throttle mounted on the handlebars, but it is disconnected at the higo... unless I'm at home (200 acres) where it quickly becomes a wild beast again as the throttle overrides most of these settings.

I have installed a plate with all the required details.
Manufacturer = me
Max 25km/h
250w cont.
EN15194


Am I really the manufacturer? Yes of course officer. I built it from many different parts, which is the same process as any other bike manufacturer, except for old English Raleigh bikes (who did actually manufacture all the parts for their bikes).
Safety is my prime concern officer, look, rim and disc brakes front and rear, dynamo lighting, mirror, bell, safety sunglasses, gloves, flouro beanie/tuke which of course is much safer than a helmet because I can hear traffic and they can see me... and I can only go 25km/h anyway.


Further to those regulations...
REGISTRATION Power-assisted pedal cycles that meet either of the criteria described above do not require registration in NSW. A bicycle fitted with a motor (or motors in combination) that does not meet either of the above criteria is a moped or motor cycle and the conditions described under ‘Mopeds’ on page 1 apply.

LICENSING, SAFETY AND USE A rider of a power-assisted pedal cycle does not have to hold a rider’s licence, but they must wear an approved bicycle helmet, and obey the same road rules as bicyclists.

ON-ROAD ENFORCEMENT Police carrying out on-road enforcement may ask the owner and/or user of a power-assisted pedal cycle to provide evidence that the power output does not exceed the applicable limit. If that evidence is not readily available, such as from the compliance label, it may be necessary to test the vehicle on a certified dynamometer (‘dyno’) to determine the maximum power output of its motor/s...



So it seems I can legally have two motors! Which means the next step is a grin all-axle! 2wd! Redundancy! Less wear! Regen braking!

Next step though is to find a dyno so I know for sure how hard to play with the law.
 
http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html
there is no standard or even consistent way to provde a numeric 'watts rating' for a motor system.
You can see the exact same motor listed as 250 watts, 500 watts, and 1000 watts
Justin's Complete Rant
There is NO SUCH THING as a "rated watt" or any standarized method for rating ebike motor power. That's the truth
The actual power output of a motor depends entirely on how heavily it is loaded in a given situation and the maximum electrical power that the controller lets flow into the motor, it has little to nothing to do with a rating anywhere.

https://youtu.be/IxB2j-egWcQ?t=673


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=86899&p=1369133&hilit=250W+sticker#p1270422

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35048&hilit=sticker#p510365

Do you think a street beat cop knows anything about ebikes?
All they know is traffic code to write tickets and fatten the coffers.
If someones got no license and drinking and riding, then that is no good. Nor is it good if someones being an assshole while riding.
If you are courteous and nice and stopping where you are suppose to, then who's to know whats behind your rear saddle pannier bags, or why your legs are so strong you fly up that hill.
It also depends on your region or area, take for example the NYC crack down on delivery services. Also depends on if the Fuzz had their daily donut intake. Also depends if you talk nice to them giving them no lip. Just smile, give them some nice line like "Just going to Church officer" "Sorry officer wont happen again"

Remember your bell and helmet if such a law exists, also dont forget about lights front and rear. Perhaps there is even a reflective statute in there about having reflectors front, rear and sides. Also dont ride on sidewalks. Follow "Bicyclists must get off and walk" signs. Oh yeah 10kph signs on pathways. Dont flick your cig ashes onto the ground that is littering. I do believe spitting is illegal everywhere in the world, and taken quite seriously in Japan.
 
Sorry for my rant.

Well I'd say the 250W law is quite discriminatory against heavier obese people because they like to load up their bicycles with 500lbs of groceries from the grocery store, cant do that with 250W. Also makes ya wonder (not really) why there isnt a horse power limit on automobiles which are the most dangerous weapons on the road. But lets move on.

It is all common sense when riding, so I say the programming of your ampere current wont make a lick of difference mate when you are are stopped by the man with pink or yellow slips of paper to hand you.
 
StuRat said:
Manufacturer = me

If I were presented with that, as an officer who really cared to enforce the law, I wouldn't buy it. Their system appears to be "take the manufacturer's word for it", understandably as the alternative would be rather unmanageable. That can only work with manufacturers who have some incentive to truthfully represent the equipment parameters, in that they risk their market position by cheating. That doesn't apply to your one-off work there. You'd do better to give yourself a name like I Lai Ing, Ltd., hoping they will take unknown manufacturers. Or ideally, get a recognized entity to certify your stuff.

I hope my jurisdiction never goes this route.
 
Apology accepted :mrgreen:

I had read justins rant many times.

I think the wording of the law addresses most of it.
250w continuous power at the rear wheel... nothing to do with 'rated' watts, and nothing to do with overheating.

Peak power limit is not stated and 'very short periods of time' is subjective.

Rpm and torque are a different argument because I'm talking about a middrive with gears, not a hub motor.

From my understanding, if my rear wheel is putting out 250w at 24.9km/h, then it's legal, even if it puts out 1000w at 20km/h, which will easily get you up that hill.
 
donn said:
StuRat said:
Manufacturer = me

If I were presented with that, as an officer who really cared to enforce the law, I wouldn't buy it. Their system appears to be "take the manufacturer's word for it", understandably as the alternative would be rather unmanageable. That can only work with manufacturers who have some incentive to truthfully represent the equipment parameters, in that they risk their market position by cheating. That doesn't apply to your one-off work there. You'd do better to give yourself a name like I Lai Ing, Ltd., hoping they will take unknown manufacturers. Or ideally, get a recognized entity to certify your stuff.

I hope my jurisdiction never goes this route.

I didn't actually write 'me'. I used initial and surname. I did consider using a fake name like you said officer donn, but that would be dishonest sir. I have nothing to hide, I have legitimately detuned my ebike to be 100% legal.
 
StuRat said:
I have nothing to hide, I have legitimately detuned my ebike to be 100% legal.

I'm sure you have, but - if they're serious - that isn't really the question.
 
So a 250W continuous is what you are hanging your hat on.
On what degree of slope, for how long, in what wind conditions, for what total weight.

The law is very vague and ambiguous, which was done on purpose because the authority never consulted with experts in the field.
They do not take writing any laws seriously, put into that picture ebike law and its an afterthought and a joke to officials making law.

Which means I wont take their laws seriously. That however goes back to the point of if you are riding courteously, there is literally nothing to worry about.
 
Mate, I wouldn't stress about the "street legal" aspect of it, unless you're riding like an idiot. Do bike speeds and no one will even look twice, comply with the road rules and slow down near pedestrians and just be a considerate person. I've been pulled up by general duties and highway patrol a few times, once because they were looking for a stolen bike and the other times because they just wanted a look, mostly they're surprised that the thing even has a motor. I suppose having a small dog in the cargo box helps with the "I am a completely innocent member of society" disguise.
 
markz said:
So a 250W continuous is what you are hanging your hat on.
Yes that's right. I'm hanging my hat on their wording, and of course my interpretation of it, which is how law works, ask any lawyer. Nothing is black n white, and yes this is certainly grey.

On what degree of slope, for how long, in what wind conditions, for what total weight
.
On a dyno. So flat, continuous, no wind, with bike, me, motor, battery, racks, panniers, framebags, toolkit, pump, spare tyre, tube, and anything else that works. But I am interested to see how extra [weight affects the dyno report.

donn said:
StuRat said:
I have nothing to hide, I have legitimately detuned my ebike to be 100% legal.

I'm sure you have, but - if they're serious - that isn't really the question.

I disagree. The police can't get 'serious'. They are just puppets to the policy writers, which is the law, and the question.

donn said:
StuRat said:
Manufacturer = me

If I were presented with that, as an officer who really cared to enforce the law, I wouldn't buy it. Their system appears to be "take the manufacturer's word for it", understandably as the alternative would be rather unmanageable. That can only work with manufacturers who have some incentive to truthfully represent the equipment parameters, in that they risk their market position by cheating. That doesn't apply to your one-off work there. You'd do better to give yourself a name like I Lai Ing, Ltd., hoping they will take unknown manufacturers. Or ideally, get a recognized entity to certify your stuff.

I hope my jurisdiction never goes this route.

Hehehe, I just got your company name. Nice one!

I think a dyno report that shows 250w at 24.9km/h, and zero watts at 25.1km/h will make them shrug and walk away. That is the ideal entity for certification, real numbers from a specialised machine that is mentioned in their laws. How do they argue that? I'd really like to dyno a bosch bike too.

Grautuefel said:
Mate, I wouldn't stress about the "street legal" aspect of it, unless you're riding like an idiot. Do bike speeds and no one will even look twice, comply with the road rules and slow down near pedestrians and just be a considerate person. I've been pulled up by general duties and highway patrol a few times, once because they were looking for a stolen bike and the other times because they just wanted a look, mostly they're surprised that the thing even has a motor. I suppose having a small dog in the cargo box helps with the "I am a completely innocent member of society" disguise.

Completely agree with all the comments about riding nicely, and I do, and I don't suspect I'll ever need to present my case, BUT, it's all fun n games until someone gets hurt. That's when your bike is confiscated until your court case. If your bike is illegal, then you will be blamed for the accident, regardless of what happened. Jail is a horrible place.
 
I might pipe in, since we're in the same state.

EN 15194 refers to a standard called ISO-60034-1, which is a standardised method for rating motors. I'm no engineer, but from my reading of it, the crux of it is that the continuous performance of a motor is the maximum load that can be applied to the motor in a 25*C room, and the motor reaches still reaches thermal equilibrium and does not destroy itself.

So, if your motor heats to 90*C at 250w, and could keep operating forever, but at 251W, it creeps up to 100*C over time, and burns itself out, then it's a 250W continuous rated motor. Doesn't matter if it took 20 hours to reach destructive temps. And this is why 250w rated motors can spike up over 250w for a short time: You probably could put 1000w in such a motor for 2-3 minutes before it was damaged.

Long and the short of it, if you don't have a throttle, police can't field test it for compliance

If you don't ride like a hoon, police won't even care.
 
G'day Sunder,

I just tried to download the standard. They want 300 Swiss francs, which is 421 Aussie dollars!

But, the NSW law states 250w 'at the wheel', which has little to do with the physical motor itself.
 
"At the wheel" just means to measure output power, (i.e Motion), not input power (electricity).

The bigger issue is actually what role electronic governors have. 3000w motor with a 250w controller? How do you judge that?

It's not a great standard, to be honest.
 
I would take 'at the wheel' to encompass the controller, the parameters, the gearing, etc. The whole system, not just the survival temperature of the motor windings.
It makes far more sense.

Plus the fact it states dyno testing really does imply the power is measured at the tyres contact point.
So we can also allow for efficency losses in the chain, transmission, etc.
 
I think that if you measure your battery amps at 300 watts or less, that a dyno test is unlikely to show much more than 250 watts given that most motors are around 80% efficient. Personally, I'd feel comfortable going forth with your configuration with the knowledge that you have made a good faith effort to comply with the law. I'd go to extra trouble to make your label look professionally printed as possible - maybe even take a photo of some other label and make yours in a similar format.
 
markz said:
Also makes ya wonder (not really) why there isnt a horse power limit on automobiles which are the most dangerous weapons on the road.

Toooootally. I've long been of the opinion that there should be a horsepower cap to discourage people from using overhuge vehicles. As in, "you can have 50hp max, use it however you like." I think we'd see fewer folks opting for the Chevy Tahoe etc. and a whole lot more going for 50hp small EVs. A 50hp e-motorcycle would be the king of the road. Duggars and other grotesquely prolific vermin can figure out how to drag their brood around with 50hp. I recommend a tractor pulling a horse trailer.
 
wturber said:
I'd go to extra trouble to make your label look professionally printed as possible - maybe even take a photo of some other label and make yours in a similar format.

I have a cnc dot matrix stamping machine and used an alloy 'army' tag.
I tried to upload an image, but I must be doing something wrong.
Then I sugru-ed it over the top of the 1000w Bafang

Chalo said:
markz said:
Also makes ya wonder (not really) why there isnt a horse power limit on automobiles which are the most dangerous weapons on the road.

... grotesquely prolific vermin ...
Hehehe
 

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there was some good information in this thread, and i may add my thoughts to it as well:

first of all we are talking about power at the wheel. so it's (more or less) irrelevant what you controller's display shows. this is power from the battery. there is inefficiency in the controller, motor, gearing, bearings and stuff, and there are power wire losses as well.

and as said before: if your motor, in this case a bbs-hd has been RATED 250W anytime in the past then it's totally irrelevant what the MAXIMUM power put into it is. because it can only take 250W for infinite time. anything above that value will destroy it (so the theory).

so the best thing to do is to get SOME KIND of WATTAGE RATING sticker saying 250W and apply it to the motor. and take care to cut motor power at 25km/h (in europe it is ok to start dropping at 25km/h and to be zero at 27km/h - there is always some ramps and hysteresis).

in austria (hence the missing 'L'), there is a maximum power rating of 600W. this is MUCH easier to check and there is no discussion on how it is to be measured. but we seem to be quite alone with that in europe.
 
Engrave something on the cover plates, maybe between the flanges and the pink or yellow slips of paper man, and you got the time to state case then so be it.

Unless this happens
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/18/cyclist-charlie-alliston-jailed-for-18-months-over-death-of-pedestrian
 
markz said:
Engrave something on the cover plates, maybe between the flanges and the pink or yellow slips of paper man, and you got the time to state case then so be it.

Unless this happens
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/18/cyclist-charlie-alliston-jailed-for-18-months-over-death-of-pedestrian
I don't see the connection. IMO, Alliston was let off far too lightly.
 
wturber said:
I like the dog tag idea. Might be better if you had blanks without the hole.

I was thinking of drilling another hole on the other end and make it look like it's riveted on there, like a compliance plate, but the rivet heads would be sugru-ed on only for aesthetics.

markz said:
Unless this happens
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/18/cyclist-charlie-alliston-jailed-for-18-months-over-death-of-pedestrian

I love everything bikes.... except for those dark lycra, no lights, tucked down, fast as possible, own the road, bastards.

OH&S (health n safety) regulations have made us so aware of how high-visibilty contributes to saving lives and injuries. Yet these clowns ignore all of it and expect everyone to avoid them.
They should be outlawed, they create the bicycle hatred for all the rest of us sensible people.

The bloke in this story was on a fixie with no front brake. What it doesn't mention is whether he had a rear brake. Fixie's usually don't.
So if that's the case, this guy had no brakes at all. 18 years should be the verdict, not 18 months.
 
StuRat said:
The bloke in this story was on a fixie with no front brake. What it doesn't mention is whether he had a rear brake. Fixie's usually don't.
So if that's the case, this guy had no brakes at all.

Fixed gear bikes can be braked by fighting the pedals to a stop. That's how track bikes are stopped; brakes aren't even allowed on the track. Fixed gearing isn't a good brake, but it's better than some of the rim brakes I see on any given day at work. It's certainly not the same thing as no brakes.

Fixed gearing as the only brake isn't allowed under traffic laws anywhere I'm aware of, though.
 
I have a fixed gear bike.
Slowing down by using reverse force on the pedals works fine, but relying on that to come to an abrupt stop will almost certainly throw you off the bike, and should definately not be considered a 'brake'.
 
StuRat said:
I have a fixed gear bike.
Slowing down by using reverse force on the pedals works fine, but relying on that to come to an abrupt stop will almost certainly throw you off the bike, and should definately not be considered a 'brake'.

Unless you are practiced and skilled at doing it as are some folks. The problem with the guy who was convicted was that he didn't even try to stop or avoid.
 
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