Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Stromer ST1 vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000

Post by neptronix » Oct 15 2018 9:59pm

Kitaro1999 wrote:
Oct 15 2018 11:55am
Dude, you are a hero. I know.. sorry if I got carried away. I read your post history earlier - clearly know your stuff.
My argument was about the proprietary stuff.. I am for open platforms... i dont like proprietary stuff and between Juggernaut and Stromer, I htink the Biktrix is cheaper TCO.

Appreciate you running the site. Apologies - I didn't mean any disrespect.
:roll: okay, i'll take it.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

Post by 2old » Oct 16 2018 7:25am

DIY vs OEM is "different strokes for different folks" AFAICT. My friend and I have ridden off road a couple of times a week for the past four years, me on a BBS02-hardtail and him on a Bosch-Felt. However, if I were commuting it would be on a Stromer or something similar. Curiously, of the many ebikes I've encountered off road, all were OEM.

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Compoundbike   1 W

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Re: Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

Post by Compoundbike » Oct 16 2018 12:35pm

Gruezi from Switzerland :lol:

I have a DIY KTM conversation with 1,6kW Motor who smoked even the ultra expensive Stromer ST2S. Even my 750 watt Bafang BBS02 Conversation can keep up with the Stromer.
As far as the reliabilty goes a Hubmotor is a Hubmotor, and for the Battery i can purchase the best Sony or LG cells for the price and dont have to worry about marketing. :lol:

But the only thing on DIY is its rarely looking nice and yeah i wouldnt use it in the Zurich City.. i have 203 downhill brakes and Stromer Tyres.

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Re: Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

Post by neptronix » Oct 16 2018 1:16pm

You can build some stealthy fast bikes, either from specialized ebike frames, or just ordinary black frames so the wiring blends in.

Here's my current dream recipe for a street bike..

A pair of bafang G310's could hide fairly well behind a disc brake and tall rear gear cluster + a fat tubed front fork on a mountain bike. Run the front one at 500w and the rear at 800w peak and you'll have something that'll blow a stromer out of the water and look nice while it's doing it. Paint the torque arms and their hardware black. Use a tiny eggrider display and a battery backpack. Nobody will know it's electric till they get a good look or listen up close.
Of course, you want the fast winding on both and an appropriate voltage to hit 33mph.

What i'd do for an offroad build is take something like a GNG drive and strip off the secondary reduction and run the motor straight to a rear disc sprocket, mount it to the rear set tube ( custom hardware required, but not hard to find most of the pieces ) and hide the motor and chain behind some panniers. Use a black frame, black panniers, and black chain. Throw a FOC controller on for noise reduction.
Gear it to do 30mph on as high of volts as you can go, because you will want more torque due to the single speed reduction. It will clobber most hills, but not all. If you want to climb monster hills, gear for 20mph or lower. You'll have so much extra torque on tap that extra gear ratios won't be necessary at all, unless you must absolutely climb that 1 mile long 20% grade :mrgreen:

Both of these recipes give you a stealthier and faster experience for less $. They just require elbow grease. Big names still haven't figured out how to build excellent stuff - although i'll admit that some of the built in mid drives are pretty nice! it's just that when they break, they tend to not be fun or inexpensive to fix because mid drives do not have standardized parts and there are a lot of them..
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

2old   100 kW

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Re: Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

Post by 2old » Oct 16 2018 11:25pm

Not everyone is all about "the cheapest" or "the fastest". I can afford what I want and the 30 mph Stromer is fast enough for me, plus it's legal for bike lanes contiguous with a road in socal, but I rarely commute so don't own one. I built a $600 (plus $200 donor), 33 mph bike that'll blow the doors off a Stromer too. Guess what? Nobody gives a crap.

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Re: Stromer ST1 vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000

Post by piotr » Oct 18 2018 9:14am

sisachosudo wrote:
Oct 11 2018 10:05am
Appreciated Neptronix.

I understood from your reply that the hub motors are more reliable than the mid drives. Why is that?

Since I discovered this forum years ago I was decided to build my own ebike but now that my commute is quite challenging I wonder if my old bike plus the hub engine-kit will be able to deal with it in a daily basis.
I don't want to spend 1500 USD to discover myself in a year or so riding a bike full of noises and struggling to keep 28mph.

This is my old bike which is 7 years old:

Image

At least it has hydraulic brakes and front suspension. If you believe it can handle it I would lean more and more towards the own building with a rear hub engine and a battery attached to the bottle screws.

Thank you!
I have recently converted a similar bike. I have spent 600USD on a Bafang bbs02/750 and a 14.5ah battery (both from pswpower). My commute is 22km one-way. I can make it back and forth on a single charge. I have done just under 700km now and I average around 34kmh.
20181006_120415 (Large) (Medium).jpg

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Re: Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

Post by sisachosudo » Nov 13 2018 10:37am

Thank you for all your replies! I learnt quite a lot reading you.

Finally I decided to go for the DIY option so I can learn even more and fix anything that may fail in the future. I opened a new post to ask you all the doubts which arise in the building process.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=97281

Thanks again.

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Re: Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

Post by daffy99 » Nov 17 2018 6:32am

Seeing as you are located in Switzerland, and shooting for a vehicle that goes up to 45 km/h speed, the Stromer has that one critical advantage: It can be registered ("gelbes Kontrollschild") to be legal on public roads, as a so-called "S-Pedelec".

If you shop around, for instance on https://www.stromvelo.ch/ebikes/Stromer (no affiliation, no recommendation etc), you can find road-legal, extremely well-supported, fully warranted Stromer ST1X at CHF 4200 = USD 4200 including tax (model year 2017).

I'd expect the Swiss police not to be totally stupid and recognize an "abnormally" fast electric bike reasonably well, in particular if it lacks the number plate. I suppose that they most often will take a blind eye to that, until there is that single unexpected incident, with insurance and whatever else involved.

For the record: I ride a very cheap hub motor DYI, which I very deliberately hold back. CHF 450 _in total_ (electric components) got me something into my fully MTB that can be ridden 40 km/h all-electric in the flats, at 18 kg. *And* still I am looking for an inexpensive used Stromer ST1X or Stromer ST2 ;)

Recommendation: Have a good at smide.ch and rent a Stromer for an hour or two (Basel, Zürich).

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Re: Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

Post by sisachosudo » Nov 21 2018 5:17am

daffy99 wrote:
Nov 17 2018 6:32am
Seeing as you are located in Switzerland, and shooting for a vehicle that goes up to 45 km/h speed, the Stromer has that one critical advantage: It can be registered ("gelbes Kontrollschild") to be legal on public roads, as a so-called "S-Pedelec".

If you shop around, for instance on https://www.stromvelo.ch/ebikes/Stromer (no affiliation, no recommendation etc), you can find road-legal, extremely well-supported, fully warranted Stromer ST1X at CHF 4200 = USD 4200 including tax (model year 2017).

I'd expect the Swiss police not to be totally stupid and recognize an "abnormally" fast electric bike reasonably well, in particular if it lacks the number plate. I suppose that they most often will take a blind eye to that, until there is that single unexpected incident, with insurance and whatever else involved.

For the record: I ride a very cheap hub motor DYI, which I very deliberately hold back. CHF 450 _in total_ (electric components) got me something into my fully MTB that can be ridden 40 km/h all-electric in the flats, at 18 kg. *And* still I am looking for an inexpensive used Stromer ST1X or Stromer ST2 ;)

Recommendation: Have a good at smide.ch and rent a Stromer for an hour or two (Basel, Zürich).

Thank you daffy99 for your message. It made me re-think the whole situation.

I contacted the traffic office in Zurich ("Strassenverkehrsamt") to know what is the process I would have to go through to homologate an e-bike built by myself with a powerful motor like the Mxus 1500W.
Their answer was a bit discouraging at least.
I will have to provide them a lot of information about the kit.
They made it clear that all the info must be supported by "official documentation" covering the lights, engine power, motor cut-off speed/torque, max speed no more than 45kmh, brakes with a braking power of at least 0.35kw, etc...

My worst nightmare would be to be involved in an accident just to see how the insurance company says... "Sorry, wait there, what is this thing you were driving?"

I booked a test drive with Stromer this weekend and I will do what would be my daily commute to see if either I fall in love with the bike or it falls from grace.

The fact that they will run all the administration work to register the bike and give it to you fully road legal is a huge plus when you live in a country where you are still struggling to cope with the Swiss-German language.

In the shop they have discounted units named as "2017 model". If they are brand new, not used, there shouldn't be any differences with the 2018 model, right?

Thank you guys.

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Re: Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

Post by 2old » Nov 21 2018 11:37am

FWIW, I thought the 2017 ST1X ($5,000, which has been discounted to $3,000) was a dynamite commuter if you're satisfied with 30 mph, which was adequate :P for me. I don't now if they've made any substantial changes for 2018, but doubt it.

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Re: Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

Post by daffy99 » Nov 22 2018 4:02pm

If you want to legally ride a fast bike in Switzerland, your only option is to have it registered as an S-Pedelec.

The only economically viable option to get an S-Pedelec is buying one. Seriously. It does not have to be a Stromer, but, really, it absolutely has to be an S-Pedelec.

There is one major difference between model year 2018 and earlier years: Only as of 2018 will the Omni ride computer be enabled for 3G mobile data networks; previously, the original 2G network (GSM) would be used. Switzerland will begin decommissioning 2G as of next year. Upgrading old ride computers is at least CHF 650.

Myself, I am prepared to pay up to CHF 3000 for a pristine condition MY2017 ST2, large battery. Keep in mind, though, that I do not really *need* an S-Pedelec, given my rather tame-looking, yet hideous, DIY full-suspension MTB with geared hub motor.

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Re: Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

Post by hkj » Dec 03 2018 4:57am

I converted an old mtb with a BBSHD kit from Aliexpress. First time it took me a couple of evenings because I was lacking tools and wanted to go slow and easy. I paired the motor with a 48V 17Ah battery. In retrospect, I wish I bought a 52V battery. More power is never wrong.

Some performance specs with a 30 tooth gear. 40-45 km/h. Can climb what ever I throw at it. Doesn't even have to pedal if I don't want to. Either go with pedal assisst or full on throttle.

Best thing I've ever built. It shreds in the forest.

Image

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Re: Stromer ST1X vs Juggernaut Ultra 1000 vs DIY

Post by Deafcat » Dec 07 2018 9:37am

Voltron wrote:
Oct 15 2018 1:01pm
And my main concern with the Juggernaut is where and when can you get motor parts? All the other stuff is pretty generic, but that motor is so new unless you love being on the bleeding edge of development, it seems a little overkill unless on trails all the time as a play bike. In a pavement work commuter the possiblity of having weeks of downtime waiting for parts doesn't fit the reliable commuter ideal very well, for me anyway.
Motor parts for Bafang Ultra should be widely available now, and in good supply.

I actually got the new Biktrix Juggernaut Ultra 1000 (2019 model), and I am seriously impressed. What a fantastic motor! Very efficient, sounds great, very quiet, phenomenally smooth output from torque sensor control and throttle, can also be switched to cadence "sport" mode at the hold of a button. The bike in general is nicely outfitted (besides a few cheaper parts which are often swapped right away like post/saddle/etc). Having a great Canadian winter riding so far!

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