Newbies First Build - 3000w Cyclone w/ 72v battery?!

D

Down2Mob

100 µW
Joined
Jan 19, 2018
Messages
8
Hello All! I am getting ready to build my first e-bike and I want to build a beast. I will bring it on a cross country trip through the US, Canada, and Alaska next year. I used to race motocross and have a good amount of experience riding mountain bikes at parks, downhill, etc. I want to use my Transition Dirtbag freeride bike as the donor. I want to ride a lot of mountain bike trails, but also anything I can find in the city.


As for the powerplant, I am thinking that the Cyclone 3000w kit has won my heart. Great price and monster wattage. I have built and raced a lot of RC cars, and I feel fairly comfortable taking on the build as far as wiring and general assembly. Although I forsee a few headaches along the way.

It seems that a 72v battery will yield the gnarliest results, I found this battery but I am looking for recommendations:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Ebike-battery-72v-30ah-2500w-18650-battery-electric-bicycle-Lithium-battery-pack-with-84v-2A-charger/32737769503.html?src=google&albslr=121970262&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=494-037-6276&isdl=y&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&aff_platform=google&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&&albcp=1582410664&albag=59754279756&trgt=296904914040&crea=en32737769503&netw=u&device=c&gclid=CjwKCAiAiuTfBRAaEiwA4itUqAkRqY6ivIayfrLmx6tyA72KdTEjExgq4xOLBA_59tgES6ooQDjE1RoCjh4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I have read that I need an "e brake cut out", and even though I love my Hayes hydraulic brakes, I was thinking of getting the Shimano M355 hydraulic brakes with the cutoff. (the ones for the bafang kit)

https://www.amazon.com/SHIMANO-Hydraulic-Brake-Bafang-Shi-ma-no/dp/B06XCMP6NQ/ref=asc_df_B06XCMP6NQ/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312070810048&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12518733480111291694&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030077&hvtargid=pla-593788832074&psc=1

Does this sound like I am on the right track? Are there any other parts or resources you can recommend for my build? Thank you!
 
Where do you want to buy it from? If they include magnetic brake sensors, you only need to electrical tape them onto your current brake levers and you are set.

Buying from Ali is not for the faint heart. Unitpackpower is the most popular vendor, they might have the best quality on ali, but even theirs is just above the fire hazard level, although they do build to custom size.
You could look into these batteries: https://lunacycle.com/72v/
Where do you want to put it? That frame doesn't look like it could fit a lot.
 
Down2Mob said:
Hello All! I am getting ready to build my first e-bike and I want to build a beast. I will bring it on a cross country trip through the US, Canada, and Alaska next year. I used to race motocross and have a good amount of experience riding mountain bikes at parks, downhill, etc. I want to use my Transition Dirtbag freeride bike as the donor. I want to ride a lot of mountain bike trails, but also anything I can find in the city.


As for the powerplant, I am thinking that the Cyclone 3000w kit has won my heart. Great price and monster wattage. I have built and raced a lot of RC cars, and I feel fairly comfortable taking on the build as far as wiring and general assembly. Although I forsee a few headaches along the way.

It seems that a 72v battery will yield the gnarliest results, I found this battery but I am looking for recommendations:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Ebike-battery-72v-30ah-2500w-18650-battery-electric-bicycle-Lithium-battery-pack-with-84v-2A-charger/32737769503.html?src=google&albslr=121970262&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=494-037-6276&isdl=y&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&aff_platform=google&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&&albcp=1582410664&albag=59754279756&trgt=296904914040&crea=en32737769503&netw=u&device=c&gclid=CjwKCAiAiuTfBRAaEiwA4itUqAkRqY6ivIayfrLmx6tyA72KdTEjExgq4xOLBA_59tgES6ooQDjE1RoCjh4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I have read that I need an "e brake cut out", and even though I love my Hayes hydraulic brakes, I was thinking of getting the Shimano M355 hydraulic brakes with the cutoff. (the ones for the bafang kit)

https://www.amazon.com/SHIMANO-Hydraulic-Brake-Bafang-Shi-ma-no/dp/B06XCMP6NQ/ref=asc_df_B06XCMP6NQ/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312070810048&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12518733480111291694&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030077&hvtargid=pla-593788832074&psc=1

Does this sound like I am on the right track? Are there any other parts or resources you can recommend for my build? Thank you!
Click to expand...

That incredibly shitty looking charger should be alarm bells for you! Cheap and nasty. :(
 
I didn't see any specs or anything like that, so I guess this is about the appearance? How do you tell, from just looking at a picture of a charger?
 
Tommm said:
Where do you want to buy it from? If they include magnetic brake sensors, you only need to electrical tape them onto your current brake levers and you are set.

Buying from Ali is not for the faint heart. Unitpackpower is the most popular vendor, they might have the best quality on ali, but even theirs is just above the fire hazard level, although they do build to custom size.
You could look into these batteries: https://lunacycle.com/72v/
Where do you want to put it? That frame doesn't look like it could fit a lot.
Click to expand...

I want to buy the Cyclone 3000w from Luna Cycle and it doen't seem to come with any magnetic brake sensors. I would way rather keep my current brake and add brake sensors. Like I said, I am very new to all of this so just trying to put the pieces together.

Those batteries from Luna look good, but the only one in stock is 10ah and I was looking for more than that I think.

I was hoping to put the battery in the frame are with a bag from Luna, but of course that all depends on the size and shape of the battery. If I have to I am willing to do a backpack battery as well. I am really looking for recommendations at this point. I came from RC cars and cheap china batteries worked really well for us, it seems that is not the case in the e bike world. Thanks for any recommendations you have!

https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-mid-drive-3000w-planetary-kit/
 
Down2Mob said:
Tommm said:
Where do you want to buy it from? If they include magnetic brake sensors, you only need to electrical tape them onto your current brake levers and you are set.

Buying from Ali is not for the faint heart. Unitpackpower is the most popular vendor, they might have the best quality on ali, but even theirs is just above the fire hazard level, although they do build to custom size.
You could look into these batteries: https://lunacycle.com/72v/
Where do you want to put it? That frame doesn't look like it could fit a lot.
Click to expand...

I want to buy the Cyclone 3000w from Luna Cycle and it doen't seem to come with any magnetic brake sensors. I would way rather keep my current brake and add brake sensors. Like I said, I am very new to all of this so just trying to put the pieces together.

Those batteries from Luna look good, but the only one in stock is 10ah and I was looking for more than that I think.

I was hoping to put the battery in the frame are with a bag from Luna, but of course that all depends on the size and shape of the battery. If I have to I am willing to do a backpack battery as well. I am really looking for recommendations at this point. I came from RC cars and cheap china batteries worked really well for us, it seems that is not the case in the e bike world. Thanks for any recommendations you have!

https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-mid-drive-3000w-planetary-kit/
Click to expand...

https://lunacycle.com/parts/cyclone-parts/ebrake-sensors-for-cyclone-kit/
This is the one.

While a big battery would be great for sure, you have to measure the hole in your frame before you can think about having any size of battery there. Also there are no bottle cage bosses so it wouldn't be the simplest thing to do. Frame bags are only good as a temporary solution, or not at all if you are going off road. It will damage the cells smacking against your bike tubes.

In your place, I would write luna if this battery will be available later. This is about as big as anyone would like to carry on their back (also the same amount of cells that would likely fit your bike in a bag).
https://lunacycle.com/72v-panasonic-pf-11-6ah/
 
If you used to race motocross you will be extremely disappointed with the cyclone 3000w in any form, especially with stock controller and throttle. Not enough power, questionable quality.
 
flat tire said:
If you used to race motocross you will be extremely disappointed with the cyclone 3000w in any form, especially with stock controller and throttle. Not enough power, questionable quality.
Click to expand...

72v 40a seems like a good place to start. The 4kw motor would be better above 60a but luna doesn't carry it.
 
You'll overheat the motor in minutes if you ride like you're on a track even with 3kw. I trust you know what that means, most people here don't ride hard and mess around at most. I've run these drive at 2.5-7kw and even on 2.5kw I had to limit my wrist way too much. It sucks. I just want to accelerate hard with minimum hassle. There's also the issue of throttle response, precision and resolution which you will find lacking with stock cyclone kit.

Good lightweight mid drives use motors like astroflight. It's expensive and you get what you pay for. Cyclone is adapted from some conveyer belt motor or something.

Tangent mid drive is capable of much more power, more reliably with the drawback of noise and cost.

DaVinci drive same benefits, drawback of cost fitment and availability.

Hub motor QS205 or 273 will satisfy your acceleration needs but the handling sucks and forget about riding hard offroad.

If you stick with the cyclone you'll want the sickbikeparts ultra durable freewheel and upgraded motor sprocket. The stock parts will fail fast at your power level. And pack extra chains, cuz both will break. You'll also drop the back chain a lot if you ride legitimately hard unless you take measures to constrain it by the chainring and / or only run a perfectly straight chainline.
 
Sean9002 said:
That incredibly shitty looking charger should be alarm bells for you! Cheap and nasty. :(
Click to expand...

You judge an electronic device by the housing it's in? Seems like a faulty method. (Though I have had plenty of random failures of both cheap and expensive chargers. Remember Soneil of Canada?)
 
flat tire said:
You'll overheat the motor in minutes if you ride like you're on a track even with 3kw. I trust you know what that means, most people here don't ride hard and mess around at most. I've run these drive at 2.5-7kw and even on 2.5kw I had to limit my wrist way too much. It sucks. I just want to accelerate hard with minimum hassle. There's also the issue of throttle response, precision and resolution which you will find lacking with stock cyclone kit.

Good lightweight mid drives use motors like astroflight. It's expensive and you get what you pay for. Cyclone is adapted from some conveyer belt motor or something.

Tangent mid drive is capable of much more power, more reliably with the drawback of noise and cost.

DaVinci drive same benefits, drawback of cost fitment and availability.

Hub motor QS205 or 273 will satisfy your acceleration needs but the handling sucks and forget about riding hard offroad.

If you stick with the cyclone you'll want the sickbikeparts ultra durable freewheel and upgraded motor sprocket. The stock parts will fail fast at your power level. And pack extra chains, cuz both will break. You'll also drop the back chain a lot if you ride legitimately hard unless you take measures to constrain it by the chainring and / or only run a perfectly straight chainline.
Click to expand...

I love where your heads at, thank you! I will abuse this bike, I'll just be honest. I am hard on everything I own but I take care of it all at the same time. Thats what its for, right? I am selling my dirtbike for this build, so I am willing to put some money into it, and I want to build as close to a bullet proof e bike, with hopefully putting around $1500-2k in. I figure that is more than reasonable because I already have the bike!

How much are the tangent drives and where can I find them?

The davinci is a bit confusing to me, the pricing seems to be all over the place with all sorts of packages, trying to make sense of what would be a good option there.

https://www.aft-ebike.com/kits--pricing.html

Thanks for the help! These look like some nice quality options. And I am thinking the battery has to go in a backpack now...
 
Double your budget, and you are just begining to be able to build a good bike for mountain trails.

Then, when it is your first, chances are little that you will be riding it very long before starting another one. I have built 3 before achieving my goals. That is a whole new world.

Power is costly, and powered DH bikes are so different than gravity bikes. You soon realize that all your previous conceptions need to be re-evaluated.

Then you will have to make compromises. Weight, range, power, speed, reliability, handling... you can’t have it all. You will have to ride to decide, and experiment to find how to best achieve your new goals.
 
Well if you are really planning on having something bullet proof and thrashing, I am not sure I can recommend the cyclone either. It is good enough to use a bike like a supermoto but for a dirt bike I would look for something else, like a sur ron.
 
Google "Tangent Drive" and you will find their site. They'll be able to answer any questions you have.

Backpack batteries are awful. I've gone both ways, and while a lighter bike will handle a little better, moving that weight to your back will just tire you out faster as you move around on the bike. You have mechanical advantage to steer the bike through the bars, so the weight impacts you less, whereas on your back it's just dead weight. Even if the bike is 80 or 100 lbs you will still outweigh it and it will feel rather light and nimble. Not to mention with a backpack you have a cable you have to manage (can't let it drag too much, but need plenty of slack to move around and stand), and the backpack battery complicates crashing significantly. What if you have a bad crash and are unconscious for a while and there's a fire? You would probably prefer the option of the fire not being guaranteed to collocate with your back.

So yeah don't do that.

As far as your budget, you need a downhill bike to put all this on. Anything else will come up short for someone like you riding offroad. Downhill bikes have around 8" travel front and 9" rear and are way more durable than regular bikes. They are expensive but like everything else you get what you pay for.

A budget of $6k would be realistic for what you want to do. It could maybe be done for less but the bike and drive alone will cost you ~$4K even if you get the bike used.
 
flat tire said:
Google "Tangent Drive" and you will find their site. They'll be able to answer any questions you have.

Backpack batteries are awful. I've gone both ways, and while a lighter bike will handle a little better, moving that weight to your back will just tire you out faster as you move around on the bike. You have mechanical advantage to steer the bike through the bars, so the weight impacts you less, whereas on your back it's just dead weight. Even if the bike is 80 or 100 lbs you will still outweigh it and it will feel rather light and nimble. Not to mention with a backpack you have a cable you have to manage (can't let it drag too much, but need plenty of slack to move around and stand), and the backpack battery complicates crashing significantly. What if you have a bad crash and are unconscious for a while and there's a fire? You would probably prefer the option of the fire not being guaranteed to collocate with your back.

So yeah don't do that.

As far as your budget, you need a downhill bike to put all this on. Anything else will come up short for someone like you riding offroad. Downhill bikes have around 8" travel front and 9" rear and are way more durable than regular bikes. They are expensive but like everything else you get what you pay for.

A budget of $6k would be realistic for what you want to do. It could maybe be done for less but the bike and drive alone will cost you ~$4K even if you get the bike used.
Click to expand...


Very good points on the backpack battery. I don't want to do that anymore! You are so right about the weight being better on the bike, I would have to agree with that for sure.

My bike is so close but not quite a DH bike.. definitely more freeride, it has 7" front with the marzocchi 66 and 6" rear with the FOX DHX 5.0 so it is a tank but still a smaller bike for a full suspension, which I really like as a pedal bike.

HMMMMM I am not sure of anything anymore! haha but I appreciate the points you bring up, I think it will save me a lot of headache!
 
Your bike is OK. You can build on that frame, lots of speed and power. If it is a large, even better because a long wheel base does help a lot stabilizing at high speed, and temper the effect of hard acceleration.

Like I said previously, you will have to make compromises. Reliability and speed are pretty cheap to build with a big hub motor, but it will be hard and costly to achieve good handling and to tune the rear suspension.

Driving the chain does make it easy to build good handling and the suspension will be almost equal as it is now. But, it will require much more maintenance, more expansive to build, and limited to lower speed.

The nicer and faster are your trails, the more you will like a hub build. Then, if your trails are full of slow technical sections, root gardens and jumps, you will prefer riding a mid drive.

No matter the choice of motorization, you will have to upgrade the brakes because of the extra weight and speed. Old school big brakes are OK: Hope M6 or Magura Gustav. Modern 4 piston brakes are good if you choose them for large pad surface and good heat dissipation: Shimano Saint, Magura Mt7 or Mt5, and such...

Tough wheel building, heavier rims, some geometry mods, and solving battery containment/placement... Thing every mtb ebiker need to do.

Good luck with your build. The first one is always more work, but all of us riding mountain trails are soon building a 2nd, and a third. The next will be easier, and you will know better the features that you want, the compromises that you are willing to accept.

For performance and light weight, we use RC lipo batteries. They can be dangerous, so you need to gather knowledge about them, maintenance and safety measures. Plenty of info on ES about them.
 
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