A little help please - Cargo Hub Motor

Joined
Mar 17, 2017
Messages
27
Location
Biking Hell aka WV USA
Hi everyone. :D
I'm mostly familiar with mid-drives so I need a little help finding a Rearhub motor/kit.

So let me lay out my use case:
I need a hub motor to assist a Rotovelo velomobile (73lbs), my self (~260lbs) and cargo (~60lbs) up 20% grades.
Given that use case I think my only option is a cargo rated hub.

Normally I would use a mid-drive to take advantage of gearing but I found out the hard way with a recumbent Quad (with a similar load) that a Mid drive likes to telescope the front boom in on steep hills or snap the long chain (~3x the length of those on traditional diamond frame bikes).

My other requirements:
Available in a 20" x 1.5 to 2" wheel
Must accept a standard Shimano Hyperglide 9-10 speed Cassette, no free wheels.
Up to 1.5kw (don't go suggesting 5kw kits. ;))
Top speed - 28 mph
Reverse
Bonus Points for Torque Sensing

The 1.5kw and 28 mph are to comply with local moped laws, as my state has zero e-bike definitions. Any bike with a motor is a moped here. It's partially a legal C.Y.A., and if I have to comply with Moped laws might as well take full advantage of the higher power and speed limits. Reverse is a foul weather convenience feature in a Velomobile. The Cassette is mostly a redundancy so I can have the gearing I need should something go wrong with the motor or battery.

A obvious choice would be a Heinzmann Cargo hub (https://ebike.heinzmann.com/en/systems/cargopower/motor) but their American distributer seems to be unreliable at best and a scam at worst.

What other options are there for loads like my use case?
 
heinzmann motors seem sub par based on all the data i've seen anyway.
poor power per weight..
efficiency could be a lot better..
I haven't seen any prices, but my guess is that they're more expensive than China designed and produced motors..

For 1500w, i like the leafmotor 1500w because it is more realistically a 1800w continuous motor. Also currently the most efficient motor in it's size. Hit up the google search for more info.
 
There's cassette versions listed on their website, but they come with a smaller ( 12mm wide ) axle on at least one side of the motor, which is not up to the task of holding the power the motor can produce.

This is the case with many cassette motors, but not all.
 
NPC Brown Cow said:
Must accept a standard Shimano Hyperglide 9-10 speed Cassette, no free wheels.

You know that there are 9 and 10 speed freewheels now, right? They're made mostly for e-bikes, which have large enough axles to avoid the issues that led to cassette hubs in the first place.

Mind you, using an 8, 9, or 10 speed freewheel will require you to add a little spacing to the right side, and widen your bike's frame spacing accordingly.

I like the idea of a cassette hear hub motor. I haven't yet seen an implementation I thought was trustworthy.
 
Chalo said:
NPC Brown Cow said:
Must accept a standard Shimano Hyperglide 9-10 speed Cassette, no free wheels.

You know that there are 9 and 10 speed freewheels now, right? They're made mostly for e-bikes, which have large enough axles to avoid the issues that led to cassette hubs in the first place.

Mind you, using an 8, 9, or 10 speed freewheel will require you to add a little spacing to the right side, and widen your bike's frame spacing accordingly.

I like the idea of a cassette hear hub motor. I haven't yet seen an implementation I thought was trustworthy.
Ya, there are 10 speed freewheels, but even the "wide range" top out at 36T (or that is the largest I've seen). I need those larger 50T+ rings that I can only get on a Cassette.

My Quad (Jouta Blue Line) sits at ~14 gear inches [GI] (20x1.5; 24T front, 34T rear), weighs only ~1 pound more then the Rotovelo and it's not geared low enough to let me winch it up even the 12% grade hills in the area. Currently I'm a weak cyclist, that will change as I ride more but for now, I need as low a GI as I can get.
 
NPC Brown Cow said:
I need a hub motor to assist a Rotovelo velomobile (73lbs), my self (~260lbs) and cargo (~60lbs) up 20% grades.
gradient4.gif

How long do you have to sustain going up that slope, and how fast are you allowed to go up it? (or rather, how fast do you want to?) Presumably the same 28MPH limit?

At that mass, to go 28MPH up a slope that steep, it's going to take more than the 1.5kw limit. :( At a guesstimate, based on http://bikecalculator.com/how.html , around 5kw. (it doesnt' have options for some of your features, like the velo, so power will be a little less, but not much.
20percent slowp 5kw.png

According to that calculator, at only 1500w, you'll only get around 8-9MPH up that slope. Depending on the length of the slope and the ability of the hubmotor to shed the waste heat, and it's efficiency at that RPM, the motor might overheat before you reach the top at that speed.

Typically a geared hub would be better at efficiency, but much worse at shedding heat, so whether a DD or geared hub is better might be a toss up depending on the factors above.

To see some of what I mean, check out the http://ebikes.ca/simulator for various motors, speeds, and slopes. Even if you don't use any of the motors listed there, it still shows the principle and may help guide your selection.

You can of course add your own power thru the pedals to increase the speed, but it may not be enough to make a difference to overheating, depending on the time it takes to get up the hill.


Given that use case I think my only option is a cargo rated hub.
YOu could use 2WD. Halves the load on each motor, just about doubles acceleration (depending on battery sag and controller power/capability). Or 3WD for a trike; Grin's all-axle hubmotor has been used for front wheel drive on a tadpole trike at least once.


Normally I would use a mid-drive to take advantage of gearing but I found out the hard way with a recumbent Quad (with a similar load) that a Mid drive likes to telescope the front boom in on steep hills or snap the long chain (~3x the length of those on traditional diamond frame bikes).
There are ways to deal with that.

Don't put the middrive up front. Put it near the rear wheel, like about where the cranks would be on a normal bike. Probably requires modding the velo, but should be possible depending on the middrive type.

Use two chains, one long from the boom back to the middrive, which is placed near the rear wheel. Then a short chain (normal bike length at most) from the drive to the wheel.

This could take away the front chainrings from the middrive, but most of them don't use those anyway, not for gearshifting--they only get the benefit of the rear shifter.


Must accept a standard Shimano Hyperglide 9-10 speed Cassette, no free wheels.
Up to 1.5kw (don't go suggesting 5kw kits. ;))
Top speed - 28 mph
Reverse
Bonus Points for Torque Sensing

You can get a higher-capability system, and then use the Cycle Analyst v3 to limit it to your local legal limitations. The CA would also support PAS/torque sensing.

I recommend not necessarily going with a "kit", but piecing together from the best of each part of the system, because the best stuff for your application may not all be in the same kit.

Requiring the cassette limits you a bit; there's a lot of good motors out there that don't yet have cassette options. I do understand wanting to keep the cassette, however.

Requring reverse leaves out all of the geared hubmotors (internal freewheeling clutch), and unfortunately also all middrives that go thru the gears.

Most of the cassette hubmotors I have seen are geared hubs, but there's probably new stuff out there I've not kept up with (most of what I know about is what I see around ES).



To get the top speed you want in the wheel size you need, you may need to use at least a "52v" battery (about 60v fully charged). Depending on hte actual motor winding used, you may need even higher voltage.


The 1.5kw and 28 mph are to comply with local moped laws, as my state has zero e-bike definitions. Any bike with a motor is a moped here. It's partially a legal C.Y.A., and if I have to comply with Moped laws might as well take full advantage of the higher power and speed limits.
Does it specify how that 1.5kw is measured? Do they actually test for it? If not, I would worry just about the speed limit, because for a heavier vehicle, acceleration is pretty limited at only 1.5kw, especially if it's a DD hubmotor. Just to get to 20MPH it could take you 10-30 seconds depending on slope and headwinds/crosswinds. In traffic that isn't very helpful.

(for Crazybike2, which is around 400lbs with me on it, it takes around 4kw to get from 0-20MPH in about 4 seconds, which just lets me out-accelerate most fo the cars behind me at a light until I cross the intersection, at which point they are passing me, but at least they're not pissed off by me being "in their way" when they start out from the light, which can be one of the more dangerous situations to be in).


If you really think they'll test for the motor power, and have to keep it under 1.5kw, then having a more power-capable system than that but limiting it via CA or in the controller settings (if it has them) means there is less stress on all the components, and enables you to turn off the limit if you absolutely had to have more power for some specific situation (higher load than expected going up a hill, or high headwinds / crosswinds going up the hill, or a steeper hill than expected, etc.).



Reverse is a foul weather convenience feature in a Velomobile. The Cassette is mostly a redundancy so I can have the gearing I need should something go wrong with the motor or battery.
FWIW, freewheels can give you the gearing, too, though you might have to use multiple stages of gearing to do it. There are ways to add more gears in the chainpath, if you're willing to mod the velo (like with my SB Cruier trike I added an 3-speed IGH in the frame to get low enough gearing to be useful for pedalling with a dead electric system, while still being able to provide some pedal power at slightly higher speeds should the possibility arise).

If reverse is not absolutely required, it expands the hubs and other mtoor systems you could use to keep your cassette.
 
NPC Brown Cow said:
I need those larger 50T+ rings that I can only get on a Cassette.

My Quad (Jouta Blue Line) sits at ~14 gear inches [GI] (20x1.5; 24T front, 34T rear), weighs only ~1 pound more then the Rotovelo and it's not geared low enough to let me winch it up even the 12% grade hills in the area. Currently I'm a weak cyclist, that will change as I ride more but for now, I need as low a GI as I can get.

With gearing that low, you may find that you break the motor side cover whether you use a freewheel or a cassette. So be certain to use a cassette hub motor that has bearing support at the outer end.
 
NPC Brown Cow said:
Ya, there are 10 speed freewheels, but even the "wide range" top out at 36T (or that is the largest I've seen). I need those larger 50T+ rings that I can only get on a Cassette.

Wow, how fast do you need to spin the cranks to maintain 10mph with a 50T rear cog? Or is that for riding without the motor?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
amberwolf said:
>snip for space<
That's a lot, lets see if I can't answer some of that. And thanks for the links to those calculators and the All-Axle Motor. That look very interesting. :D

I don't expect to be climbing the big hills (20%) at speed, there aren't that many in the area and they can be detoured around. I'm not into speed, but utility. I'm going with the Velo for all weather use. At my current fitness level I will have to have a e-assist for hills and for stop-and-go driving. Velos are great for long hauls but are slow off the line because of their higher weight.

As for how the Moped standard is measured, the local Moped definition specifies <50cc or 2 Break Horse power (technically 1.49Kw) and the motor can't pass though any "gearing" (has to connect directly to the rear wheel). Since I'm going to have to register it as a home built/kit they will likely make me test it or provide documentation on the motor. Or they may just shrug and stamp it. Depends on who you get at the DMV.

The Bike Calculator doesn't quite work for Velos. In most Velos 150-200W of human output will let you sustain 30-35 mph on flat ground for hours. As for a mid drive solution, I'll have to wait till I get the Velo. It's ordered and expected to ship this week but being near the holidays who knows how long it will take to get here.

As to the Cycle Analyst and Cherry Picking parts - I know that is far more easy to do then with the mid drives I have experience with (BBS02). Having Zero experience with Hubs makes it very likely that I will pick parts that are incompatible (knowing me, even with guidance). For instance I was looking at a MAC kit (https://em3ev.com/shop/upgrade-mac-kit-with-4750v-battery-1500w-max/) and it was mostly gibberish to me. Two different Cycle Analysts?? What's the difference? What does MAC stand for again? I know there are geared, gear-less and brush-less motors ... but MAC?

I'm asking, researching new terms and learning. :D

I had figured on a Cycle Analyst from the start, is the CA-3 the most current? I noticed the em2ev kit listed it as compatible with the torque sensor and that is a feature I'd really like to have.
 
E-HP said:
Wow, how fast do you need to spin the cranks to maintain 10mph with a 50T rear cog? Or is that for riding without the motor?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's a recumbent trike/quad it won't fall over so no need to worry about speed. You sit and spin and spin and spin till you reach the top. It's jokingly referred to as "winching" your way up a hill. :lol: And yes, it's for riding/climbing without the motor.

edit: It's common for recumbent trikers to have a low end of sub 10gi if they do any hill climbing regularly.
 
Chalo said:
With gearing that low, you may find that you break the motor side cover whether you use a freewheel or a cassette. So be certain to use a cassette hub motor that has bearing support at the outer end.
Ya, that's why I was asking about "cargo" hub motors as they should be a bit more robust. When I can cause the boom to telescope in a few inches with just my leg power at that GI (14gi) on a steep slope, breaking things is a real possibility.
 
NPC Brown Cow said:
It's a recumbent trike/quad it won't fall over so no need to worry about speed. You sit and spin and spin and spin till you reach the top. It's jokingly referred to as "winching" your way up a hill. :lol: And yes, it's for riding/climbing without the motor.

edit: It's common for recumbent trikers to have a low end of sub 10gi if they do any hill climbing regularly.

You may need more power, just from a pure physics standpoint. Last weekend I rode my bike up 17-20% grades (offroad) and pedaling as fast/hard as I could, my motor was pegging my display at 1999 watts/40 amps (I'm pretty sure it was pulling more) at 7 mph. I got off once I couldn't maintain >7mph to be safe and avoid burning up my motor and controller. Total load was maybe 230 lbs. At 393 lbs, that would be closer to 3500 watts. I'm pretty sure the human body couldn't make up the difference between 3500 watts and your 1500 watt motor limit (2000 watts), or even more if you want to ascend at higher speeds.
 
NPC Brown Cow said:
I don't expect to be climbing the big hills (20%) at speed, there aren't that many in the area and they can be detoured around.

Even if you aren't, there is going to be some minimum speed you must maintain to keep the motor in an efficient enough zone to not meltdown before you reach the top.



As for how the Moped standard is measured, the local Moped definition specifies <50cc or 2 Break Horse power (technically 1.49Kw) and the motor can't pass though any "gearing" (has to connect directly to the rear wheel).
That sounds strange, as at least some (many, I think) scooters use some form of belt-CVT, which would violate that (but I expect many of the smaller scooters are covered under the moped law). I suppose the ones sold there must either be higher power so covered under motorcycle law instead, or else are simply being sold illegally. :?

You may wish to check deeply into the presently-used interpretation of the laws, because if it literally says no gearing can be used, then the motor would have to be *in* the wheel, otherwise there will always be some form of gearing between it and the wheel, even if it has no changeable ratios.

All geared hubmotors would be illegal as well as any form of middrive.

If the law only excludes changeable-ratio gearing, then geared hubmotors and any middrive that does not run thru the pedal gearing could still be used, but geared hubmotors like the Xiongda 2-speed retrodirect could not.

In the latter case, you can make a more efficient and lighter-for-the-power (and easier to cool under heavy loads) drive system by using a leftside chain to the rear wheel for the motor, that has only a single ratio, and putting the motor on the frame.

This would also let you use your existing rear wheel, whcih if it has disc brake mounts you can mount the sprocket for chain (or belt) to, in parallel with the disc rotor if you are using it, or in place of it if you are not.


The Bike Calculator doesn't quite work for Velos. In most Velos 150-200W of human output will let you sustain 30-35 mph on flat ground for hours.
That's pretty much irrelevant for hills, where mass, speed, and slope override wind resistance power usage until you start going pretty fast (for bicycles), probably in the 30mph range. You can see this if you use the calculator for the same setup and speed on the flats vs the hill slope.


As to the Cycle Analyst and Cherry Picking parts - I know that is far more easy to do then with the mid drives I have experience with (BBS02). Having Zero experience with Hubs makes it very likely that I will pick parts that are incompatible (knowing me, even with guidance).
That's where we can help, once you've decided on a specific drive method, and figured out the power levels you'll need out of things to do what you want, and how you want to set it up. :)

Everything is "incompatible" unless it's specifically wired and connectorized to just plug in, which very few things are in the ebike world. Even many "kits" do not come ready to just plug in and go--there's been many threads over the years about figuring out the wiring of a kit becuase plugs didn't fit together, or had different wiring on apparently identical plugs, etc.

Some things are incompatible anyway, for other reasons...but mostly that's avoidable. :)



For instance I was looking at a MAC kit (https://em3ev.com/shop/upgrade-mac-kit-with-4750v-battery-1500w-max/) and it was mostly gibberish to me. Two different Cycle Analysts?? What's the difference? What does MAC stand for again? I know there are geared, gear-less and brush-less motors ... but MAC?

MAC is just a manufacturer, like BMC, Ezee, etc (all very similar higher-power geared hubmotors). (all three are well-known brands, but MAC is probably the best-known of those)


The CA has many options, so to pick one you decide what you want it to do, and then pick the one with those options.



I had figured on a Cycle Analyst from the start, is the CA-3 the most current?
Yes; I think it's something like v3.11 for the released version; I have a 3.12 beta version on mine (that fixes some minor issues I'm not sure even apply to mine...but it was there). So you can continue to upgrade firmware on it for new features (and bug fixes) until they come out with a version of hardware that isn't backward compatible with the existing ones, and stop making new firmware for the old ones.

Presently I use mine for torque-PAS (and righthand throttle) control of the righthand hubmotor, with a speed limit on that of 20MPH in the first of three presets (that I can change from a handy rocker switch on the bars). (the lefthand hub is only contorlled via the lefthand throttle, no limiting, for startups and other more-power-needed situations like heavy hauling)

I noticed the em2ev kit listed it as compatible with the torque sensor and that is a feature I'd really like to have.

As long as your velo uses a common square-taper-crank BB, 68mm wide shell, then you just replace that with one of the various torque sensor BBs that the CA is compatible with (there are a number of them nowadays).
 
E-HP said:
You may need more power, just from a pure physics standpoint. Last weekend I rode my bike up 17-20% grades (offroad) and pedaling as fast/hard as I could, my motor was pegging my display at 1999 watts/40 amps (I'm pretty sure it was pulling more) at 7 mph. I got off once I couldn't maintain >7mph to be safe and avoid burning up my motor and controller. Total load was maybe 230 lbs. At 393 lbs, that would be closer to 3500 watts. I'm pretty sure the human body couldn't make up the difference between 3500 watts and your 1500 watt motor limit (2000 watts), or even more if you want to ascend at higher speeds.
Ya, that was another thing to think about. As a human I can pedal at a very slow cadence and winch myself up a hill, but the motor needs a certain minimum speed....hills suck, unless you are riding down them. ;)
 
amberwolf said:
That sounds strange, as at least some (many, I think) scooters use some form of belt-CVT, which would violate that (but I expect many of the smaller scooters are covered under the moped law). I suppose the ones sold there must either be higher power so covered under motorcycle law instead, or else are simply being sold illegally. :?

You may wish to check deeply into the presently-used interpretation of the laws, because if it literally says no gearing can be used, then the motor would have to be *in* the wheel, otherwise there will always be some form of gearing between it and the wheel, even if it has no changeable ratios.

All geared hubmotors would be illegal as well as any form of middrive.

If the law only excludes changeable-ratio gearing, then geared hubmotors and any middrive that does not run thru the pedal gearing could still be used, but geared hubmotors like the Xiongda 2-speed retrodirect could not.

In the latter case, you can make a more efficient and lighter-for-the-power (and easier to cool under heavy loads) drive system by using a leftside chain to the rear wheel for the motor, that has only a single ratio, and putting the motor on the frame.

This would also let you use your existing rear wheel, whcih if it has disc brake mounts you can mount the sprocket for chain (or belt) to, in parallel with the disc rotor if you are using it, or in place of it if you are not.
I couldn't remember the exact wording but here it is:

§17C-1-5a. Moped.

"Moped" means every motorcycle or motor-driven cycle unless otherwise specified in this chapter, which is equipped with two or three wheels, foot pedals to permit muscular propulsion and an independent power source providing a maximum of two brake horsepower. If a combustion engine is used, the maximum piston or rotor displacement shall be fifty cubic centimeters regardless of the number of chambers in such power source. The power source shall be capable of propelling the vehicle, unassisted, at a speed not to exceed thirty miles per hour on a level road surface and shall be equipped with a power drive system that functions directly or automatically only, not requiring clutching or shifting by the operator after the drive system is engaged.

edit: I would go for the next higher classification but there is literally no process for making it street legal.

§17C-1-5. Motor-driven cycle.

"Motor-driven cycle" means every motorcycle having a piston displacement of more than fifty cubic centimeters but not more than one hundred fifty cubic centimeters, or with not more than five brake horsepower.

The definition is on the books, but there is no process in the DMV system to title or register it.
 
do the power calculations on the ebikes.ca motor simulator.

Here's a starter:
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulat...tor=MX4503_SA&axis=mph&blue=Lbs&batt=B7223_AC

This is using a mxus "3kw" motor, aka the 45mm stator..

20% grades are going to be difficult. Just look at the power requirements.

Sadly, a 5kw kit would be closer to what you need!
A mid drive would normally be perfect, but you would eat bike chains left and right..
 
neptronix said:
Sadly, a 5kw kit would be closer to what you need!
That's what I'm beginning to think as well. Problem is 5Kw (6.67 BHP) squarely puts it in Motorcycle territory, which will bring other requirements like DOT lighting and Braking.


edit: And that simply isn't going to fit on a space starved velo. ;)
 
If I could afford the legal battle I would just build it and claim it's legally a "unclassified" vehicle. Meaning that it sits outside *any* of the vehicle definitions on the books and for them to do anything about it legally the state senate would have to add a definition.
 
NPC Brown Cow said:
power drive system that functions directly or automatically only, not requiring clutching or shifting by the operator after the drive system is engaged.
Thankfully, that's very different from not allowing shifting of gears at all, so you have some workarounds available to still have variable gearing for the motor.

One would be to use a belt-CVT like the scooters do, that's got a weighted clutch that shifts ratios to keep the motor end within a certain speed range. That might be too big to fit inside the velo, but some of them are pretty small.

Another is to use something like the Nuvinci CVT hubs with the autoshifter; it doesn't have to be in the wheel if there's anywhere on the frame it could be mounted along with the motor. There may be other autoshifting IGHs out there too, that weigh less.

Another is to use a regular bicycle gear cluster set, with a centrifugal shifter, like the old Autospeed / Landrider bikes used. Those were only 6 or 7 speed, but you could probably make one that works on more sprockets.

You could make an electric (like RC servo) autoshifter for any shiftable drivetrain. It's been done for a number of them over the years, both commercially and DIY (I think there's even examples here on ES).

There's probably a number of other ways I havent' listed.
 
NPC Brown Cow said:
If I could afford the legal battle I would just build it and claim it's legally a "unclassified" vehicle. Meaning that it sits outside *any* of the vehicle definitions on the books and for them to do anything about it legally the state senate would have to add a definition.
Not exactly--what they could do is simply not allow you on any public path or road because you don't fit one of the legal definitions of an allowed vehicle, bike, pedestrian, etc. It depends on how the other transportation laws are written, about what can use different types of roads and paths.

That's happened to others before, in various places around the US and the rest of the world. Sometimes it's by constant harassment "you can't be here" when they're seen, sometimes it's by constant ticketing for exceeding the limits of one class, or not meeting the requirements of another, or both, and/or of illegally using a path or road by the wrong type of vehicle/bike/etc.


But this type of issue is why I use a trike now, and not a quad, because the only way to use a quad bicycle here is to have one that's manufactured by some specifically licensed place(s); even if I could afford to do that they don't make anything like what I want. The stuff they make is the large multi-passenger/rider touring pedal-powered things like you find in parks and whatnot.

Other than those, the max wheels allowed in contact with the ground is three, of some minimum size...so thats what I use, for stability at very low speeds or when stopped, since I haul heavy stuff on a regular basis, and am often exhausted and couldn't necessarily concentrate on balancing at the same time as everything else necessary to stay on the road safely. (it also makes the bike (trike) visually bigger which means I'm easier to see and a bit safer than just a bicycle on the side of the road...though I do a lot of other things that make that much more obvious anyway).

I could probably get away with a quad, as long as I do like I do now and ride it like a bike, and ride safely, within the law, etc., but like you I'd rather not invest the time and money into one to then get it taken away, and/or fined potentially months of pay for it not matching the definitions of bicycles. :/
 
neptronix said:
A mid drive would normally be perfect, but you would eat bike chains left and right..
Don't *have* to use bicycle chains. ;)

And don't have to go thru the bicycle drivetrain to use a middrive, and still have shiftable gears. More complicated, but certainly possible.
 
NPC Brown Cow said:
The definition is on the books, but there is no process in the DMV system to title or register it.
Does the law require that it be titled or registered?

Or does it simply require that you have an M-class license to ride it?
 
amberwolf said:
Does the law require that it be titled or registered?

Or does it simply require that you have an M-class license to ride it?
The only place it shows up in code is in the definition section and in the sections on lights/safety equipment where it is lumped with Motorcycles. I've asked the DMV about it a number of different times over the years and every DMV worker has griped about hating scooters as most of them fall into this "no man's land" and they have to deal with irate people when they find out that they aren't actually street legal here. Scooters 250cc and up get registered as motorcycles.

It's like the laws on the books here that prevent anyone from opening a Tesla dealership. To open one you have to have a special permit, but there is no way to get that permit.


EDIT: Correction. Motorcycles, Motor-driven Cycle and Mopeds are now all Class G Vehicles according to the DMV. So it seems that they finally integrated them. LoL they (and Mopeds) apparently also have to be registered, inspected and insured. So where does the inspection sticker go if there is no windshield? That is a change, It's been 3 years since I last had a "motor" vehicle.
 
amberwolf said:
And don't have to go thru the bicycle drivetrain to use a middrive, and still have shiftable gears. More complicated, but certainly possible.

Well yeah, if you had a rare nuvinci or a CNC machine to make your own transmission with, ha.
 
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