Adding Torque

Callbrin

100 mW
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
41
So I'm still a bit new to ebike things buts I've recently built my first ebike using a generic 48V 1500W motor from Voilamart.
Im using a 52V 20ah battery pack.

I wanted to know that if I up the ah of my battery pack to the limit of 1500W will that increase the torque noticeably? Would adding a second motor help? I'm not worried about hill but more of the starting torque to accelerate faster.

If its not possible is it because of my motors limitations?
 
Callbrin said:
So I'm still a bit new to ebike things buts I've recently built my first ebike using a generic 48V 1500W motor from Voilamart.
Im using a 52V 20ah battery pack.

I wanted to know that if I up the ah of my battery pack to the limit of 1500W will that increase the torque noticeably? Would adding a second motor help? I'm not worried about hill but more of the starting torque to accelerate faster.

If its not possible is it because of my motors limitations?

ah = ampere hour = a measure of battery capacity = how much energy you battery stores; this is not what you're looking for.

What you want to know is the current rating of your battery = how much current you can continuously drain from it. This depends on how well the pack is built (cells used, wire size used, fusing, bms limits and so on). Usually it's written on the pack, but I'd always recommend taking the battery apart and look for yourself.

Now to your motor: 1500W is quite a lot. If you are using a 52V battery, this means 1500/52 = 28.9 Ampere continuous, and more likely 40a at start. Check if your battery can handle this, and you're good. Also, usually manufacturers specs are quite conservative; if you provide more infos about the motor, we can try to figure out how much power it can really handle, if properly cooled.

Before buying now stuff, I'd advise investigating what you already have, and squeeze the maxium out of it. This will teach you a lot, and help you figure out what fits best to your needs.
 
qwerkus said:
Before buying now stuff, I'd advise investigating what you already have, and squeeze the maxium out of it. This will teach you a lot, and help you figure out what fits best to your needs.

This is probably the best advice, but I've found that having a watt/volt/energy meter to observe the data in real time will give you information to know what you really have and make future decisions.

It sounds like we may have similar setups (I'm a newbie too), but I went with the cheapest 48V 1000W kit I could find, but chucked the controller (25A peak) in favor of a sine wave controller (I like the idea of being silent) that can provide 45 amps peak, with a display provides real time volts and watts. I added another meter to monitor amps and energy. What I've learned is that my UPP 52V, w/30A BMS battery pack, the cheaper Chinese cell version, can output 40 amps peak when it needs to. The pack is great for the first 30%, but voltage will sag noticeably under higher loads after I've drained about half of its capacity. The motor is a slower wind, but torquey enough that it wheelies when the pack is fresh, and pulls about 1200W when it does.

From this data, so far, I'm generally happy with the performance of my battery when fully charged, but the next one will be higher voltage, to add more speed but preserve the torque that I'm happy with, and made with Samsung cells which should increase the capacity and reduce the voltage sag on the second half of the pack.

It might be just my engineering background that wants to see data, but I think that without it, you're just guessing, since most of the parts used on an economy build, don't have reliable specs, so the data tells the real story.
 
So the motor I bought is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/26-1500W-Rear-Wheel-48V-Electric-Bicycle-Bike-Motor-Conversion-Kit-Hub-Cycling/322269304808?epid=1286064734&hash=item4b08bf57e8:g:34AAAOSwXF5cEfR7:rk:2:pf:0

I build the battery myself with samsung 25r cells, This is the bms I am using: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/SuPower-14S-50-4V-51-8V-58-8V-60A-Li-ion-Lithium-LiPo-Battery-BMS-Management/32801512567.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27984c4dHTzV5s

also would a better controller increase starting torque?
 
Callbrin said:
So the motor I bought is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/26-1500W-Rear-Wheel-48V-Electric-Bicycle-Bike-Motor-Conversion-Kit-Hub-Cycling/322269304808?epid=1286064734&hash=item4b08bf57e8:g:34AAAOSwXF5cEfR7:rk:2:pf:0

I build the battery myself with samsung 25r cells, This is the bms I am using: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/SuPower-14S-50-4V-51-8V-58-8V-60A-Li-ion-Lithium-LiPo-Battery-BMS-Management/32801512567.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27984c4dHTzV5s

also would a better controller increase starting torque?

If you built the battery with samsung cells, then you're ahead of the game, and the BMS looks like it's not a bottleneck, since it's good for 60 amps. The description of your kit says that your limited to 750 watts, so it sounds like the controller will only output 15 amps or so, so that's the bottleneck. (It looks like the one I got in my kit, but painted black. Mine says 25 amps max, but not sure what the continuous rating is)

If you change the controller, you should be able to take advantage of what your battery can supply, which should be plenty, in my opinion. You might double your torque, or maybe more, the rest of the system allows the motor to pull what it wants.
 
I dont think its 100% the controller because it does say that it would draw around 35 amps at 1500W when the 2 cable (speed limiter) arent connected. If so would the motor be the bottleneck for starting torque or would upgrading the controller to say something like this:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Wide-voltageDC-48V-60V-72V-2000W-motor-controller-e-bike-hub-motor-controller-G-K001/32607005540.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.44.20e96bfb3AZUSd&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10065_10068_10130_10890_10547_319_10546_317_10548_5730311_10545_10696_453_10084_454_10083_5729211_10618_10307_538_537_536_10059_10884_10887_100031_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_1,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=cd769c2e-cbda-4694-be95-01a31e4edc00-7&algo_pvid=cd769c2e-cbda-4694-be95-01a31e4edc00

improve it. If its the motor then i understand i cant do much except buy a whole new one but would adding a 2nd motor in the front help?
 
Maybe, but I wouldn't want to guess without getting some data. Maybe spend a few bucks on a watt/volt/amp meter like any of these that has a range that cover the voltage and current you'll be using it for. It'll tell you right away if it's the controller or battery.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=wattmeter+lcd&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=wattmeter
 
I would buy a programmable controller. Yet, you could trick yours into feeding more Amps by adding solder to the shunt. Make sure wiring and connectors are up to the task. Your battery can supply much more as I can see, and I have no doubt that your motor can take a lot more power for a few seconds in acceleration.
 
Could I get a simple diagram how how to wire this one to my pack properly? I dont understand the diagrams like the one in the items description

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100A-AC-LCD-Digital-Panel-Power-Watt-Meter-Monitor-Voltage-KWh-Voltmeter-Ammeter/122690795641
 
Callbrin said:
Could I get a simple diagram how how to wire this one to my pack properly? I dont understand the diagrams like the one in the items description

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100A-AC-LCD-Digital-Panel-Power-Watt-Meter-Monitor-Voltage-KWh-Voltmeter-Ammeter/122690795641

This one is AC power meter. You should buy one for DC. They come with a shunt, instructions are pretty straightforward.
 
Re the motor limitations. What you bought is a generic motor, often referred to as 9 continent type. Its not a 1500w motor, its a 500w motor.

The good news is that motor easily handles 2000w for a moderate time, and up to 3000w for a relatively short time. ( 15-20 min, or about 8 miles at 35-40 mph.

This is why your kit got called 1500w, because it came with a controller that can put that out.

Another thing to know is that as your bike reaches its voltage limited max speed or motor rpm, watts drops. If you are making about 25-30 mph, then unless up a steep hill, you are pulling 800-1000w.

If your top speed is 30 mph, then you have a faster wind motor, which WILL be sluggish at take off. Yep, its eating watts, but till you get moving about 7 mph, its just making heat out of half of them. That is very likely to be why the motor feels like it has poor torque. Its the combination of fast wind, and large wheel size. The very best way to get more torque with that motor, that controller, and that battery is to make the wheel 20". Kinda means a different bike. Or big modifications. But that is the secret.

Re the battery limitations, quite likely your battery is struggling to keep up with that controller. A simple voltmeter will tell you if this is so. Watt meter better, but just a volts readout costing under 5 bucks will do. Look on e bay, for one with two wires. If your battery drops 8v when you hit the throttle, there is another reason it feels week. How many of those cells in parallel? What a 35 amps controller needs is around 20-30 ah, to perform with low sag. The cheaper watt meters go in line with the battery wires to the controller, so the power flows through the device to the controller. Some use a shunt, but the cheap ones usually just go in line. A simple voltmeter is easier to put on the handlebars, since it just taps the battery wire on the way to the controller, not all the power flowing through it.

If you want a hot bike, you need to make your battery able to take that 35 amp hit with 4 v sag, or less preferably. And ideally increase volts as well, so that instead of having 42v under load, you have 60-70v under a heavy load. That is how you really increase your speed, wattage, and torque. The recipe for that motor to hit 40 mph max, and have great torque is a 72v 40 amps controller. Otherwise, you just have an easy pedal bike, not a mini motorcycle.

This is all money of course. My best advice is to live with what you have awhile, and just do some small tweaks if needed. Improve wire connections from battery to controller, and controller to motor on the fat wires. Shorten any of the thick wires if way too long while re doing the plugs. Consider adding much thicker wire to the motor, starting about 6" from the hub. This won't help sag much, but any loss of voltage is loss of torque.

And, pedal like hell that first ten feet from a stop. That will add torque better than anything else you can do cheaply.

A second motor will double your power, and your torque. It will really help if you are very heavy, tow a heavy trailer, and or have extreme steep hills, like above 10% grade, and miles long.

Doubles your cost too,, no way in hell that same battery is going to double its output. So two batteries, and all that weight. Its a solution that works fine with a bad ass cargo bike, but its asking a lot from a regular frame to pack double battery. Your money would be much better spent on an additional 24v battery ( or even just 12v more) that can wire in series with your current one, increasing your speed, torque, and wattage. And of course, that controller that can work at both 48v, or at 72v when you need that boost.
 
MadRhino said:
Callbrin said:
Could I get a simple diagram how how to wire this one to my pack properly? I dont understand the diagrams like the one in the items description

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100A-AC-LCD-Digital-Panel-Power-Watt-Meter-Monitor-Voltage-KWh-Voltmeter-Ammeter/122690795641

This one is AC power meter. You should buy one for DC. They come with a shunt, instructions are pretty straightforward.

Yup, I have this one, but the external shunt is pretty big so you need a spot for it.
 

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Also is there a way to find the actual torque of my ebike. The page says 50nm but when I look at 20inch hub motors they say 27-35nm even though the rim is smaller. Do is the posted torque an exaggeration? Also thanks forgot I needed a dc watt meter not an ac
 
This is the one I will get

https://www.ebay.com/itm/150-AMP-WATT-METER-WITH-SPECIAL-HEAVY-GA-WIRE-WIND-GENERATOR-SOLAR-DC-INLINE/272061542420?hash=item3f5821b014:g:w50AAOSwfVpYpd8V

Would it just hook between the battery and motor controller?
 
Yes you can use this one, hooking the shunt inline to battery wiring.

The only true torque at the wheel measure has to be on a dynometer. You can guess approximate torque with calculations. Some can come to very close numbers with precise measures and taking into account all efficiency losses.
 
dogman dan said:
Re the battery limitations, quite likely your battery is struggling to keep up with that controller. A simple voltmeter will tell you if this is so. Watt meter better, but just a volts readout costing under 5 bucks will do. Look on e bay, for one with two wires. If your battery drops 8v when you hit the throttle, there is another reason it feels week. How many of those cells in parallel? What a 35 amps controller needs is around 20-30 ah, to perform with low sag. The cheaper watt meters go in line with the battery wires to the controller, so the power flows through the device to the controller. Some use a shunt, but the cheap ones usually just go in line. A simple voltmeter is easier to put on the handlebars, since it just taps the battery wire on the way to the controller, not all the power flowing through it.

If you want a hot bike, you need to make your battery able to take that 35 amp hit with 4 v sag, or less preferably. And ideally increase volts as well, so that instead of having 42v under load, you have 60-70v under a heavy load. That is how you really increase your speed, wattage, and torque. The recipe for that motor to hit 40 mph max, and have great torque is a 72v 40 amps controller. Otherwise, you just have an easy pedal bike, not a mini motorcycle.

So my max Mph is 30 so its definitely wound for speed. I also bought the watt meter i Posted earlier so I will soon see if it is the battery or not, For the battery pack I have 8 in parallel and the cells are sumsung 25R so they should be able to take the load at startup but We'll see. The pack is 20AH.

If i was to increase the pack to 60v and 30ah in the future would there be a noticeable difference thats worth the price to increase it?
 
Your cells, if they are the genuine 25r, can supply high power. The BMS may have a lower limit though. The common controllers that are in ebike kits are low power, and usually not programmable. So first buy a programmable controller, or mod yours, to feed higher power. Then, if your BMS does trip, replace it with one that has a higher limit.
 
Callbrin said:
Also is there a way to find the actual torque of my ebike. The page says 50nm but when I look at 20inch hub motors they say 27-35nm even though the rim is smaller. Do is the posted torque an exaggeration? Also thanks forgot I needed a dc watt meter not an ac

Probably a little rusty on this but...

Wheel size won't change the torque of the motor, it changes the effective force applied to ground used for acceleration. In other words, Torque = Radius x Force, so in your case 50 nm = 1 meter x 50 newtons. So, if you change the radius from a 2 meter diameter wheel to a 26" or 0.66 meter diameter wheel, or 0.33 meter radius, then the force applied to accelerate the bike is:
50 = 0.33 x ? newtons, or solving for Force, 50/0.33 = 151 newtons. Drop down to a 20 inch wheel and it's 50/0.254 = 197 newtons

You can also calculate torque based on power and rpm for electric motors, if you want to back into it that way. Electric motors make the greatest torque at 0 rpm and it tapers off as the RPMs increase, so the value that sellers describe is probably the maximum for the motor, assuming some combination of voltage x current (power).

So, you can either increase the power in to increase torque, or decrease the wheel diameter, both of which will increase the force applied to the ground to accelerate.
 
Ok, 8 p should handle 30 amps. Just thought you might have 4p. But other things can still cause sag, or cells can be ruined when soldering, or they could just be fake.

The watt meter will definitely tell you if the battery is part of the problem, 8v of sag is getting pretty bad, but 4-5 v sag at starts is not unusual. Get into RC lipo if you want minimal sag, 2v or less.

My guess now is mostly just that you have the motor that does take off a bit slow in 26" wheels. They perk up nicely when you up the volts. 8)

But under normal circumstances, shitty generic cell 20 ah pack that sags 8v, Its only a slow take off if you compare it to motors with double the wire and magnets inside, that lose a lot less to heat on that first 30 feet from the stop sign. Basically, upping the volts makes it get to an efficient rpm much faster, so there is a lot less waiting for the power to build. E motors are weird, you ARE getting max torque at 0 rpm. But at 0 rpm efficiency is horrible. So torque you get to use at 0-5 rpm might be a tiny fraction of what you get by 100 rpm. The result is a very sluggish first ten feet. Like I said, pedal hard for 20 feet and you add manual torque till the E torque gets rocking.


Your motor and battery, with that controller, should be doing pretty good. But there are some reasons you might not be getting what you should. A weak contact on one big motor wire can result in a smooth running wheel in the air, but in fact you are running on 2 of the three wires. This will make it run like hell. If it stutters any under take off load, look into that sort of thing.


Tell us more about your need for torque, what are you doing? If you are just riding street, and weigh under 250 pounds, you really should have no problems. Your performance is fine. But if you are climbing walls, like west virginia or west Pennsylvania , or san Francisco hills, or towing trailers, then you might need a smaller rear wheel, and or a lot more copper wire and magnet in your motor. Yeah, its a bit slow off the line now, but you are getting around fine, and keep up with cars beside you leaving a light long enough.


Here is what I came up with for best efficiency at lower speeds ( 20 mph top), up hills, towing trailers. Same motor as you have more or less. 20 inch wheel, and the frame modified to carry up to 80 ah. Mostly ran it on 35 ah of 13s, 54v charged. Very little sag under load with that much battery aboard. Only needed 22 amps to climb big mountains. This is the way you need to head if you are climbing mountains, paved. Finished cargo mixte..jpg

But for more urban riding, a similar approach to tote huge battery, but the way more powerful hub motor. To keep up with jackasses in cars in the city, ran it on 60v with RC lipo. Huge power but only about 2v of sag, and 35 mph cruise no problem. 40 mph was a bit much for the frame, but 72v would get you there.6-1-2015  Schwinn Cruiser with 52 t crank.JPG
 
I didn't see what your speed requirements are, or if replacing the motor is an option, but I bought this super cheap kit, and only used the wheel and brake levers. Turned out to be a slower motor, 23-24 mph running off a 52 volt pack. But the torque is pretty nice off the line and for climbing, which works for me.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Conversion-Kit-26-Ebike-Cycling-Rear-Wheel-Hub-48V-1000W/322440778491?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

the motor a received was a MXUS: XF 40 1000W 1610 0020

Ultimately I think most people would like both speed and torque, but not sure which is easier/costlier, to add torque to a motor wound for speed, or speed for one wound for torque. But for the latter, it's as simple as adding voltage, from what I gather.
 
OK so if this is still active or seen by anyone. I added the watt meter and I see it is limited by the controller [figured] and only pulls what its rated at.

So now I want to know if I get something like a 48v 2000w speed controller or does anyone know where I can get one for future upgradability for a more powerful motor?
 
Callbrin said:
OK so if this is still active or seen by anyone. I added the watt meter and I see it is limited by the controller [figured] and only pulls what its rated at.

So now I want to know if I get something like a 48v 2000w speed controller or does anyone know where I can get one for future upgradability for a more powerful motor?

Your motor can be fed more power in acceleration bursts no problem. Adding some solder to the shunt inside the controller will do it. You will find threads on ES that describe this simple procedure. Add a little bit, then test ride and measure current. Don't add too much as to lower shunt resistance by more than half, for you don't want to exceed the C rate of your battery.

Bigger controllers are many, that are programmable and can feed much higher current. This would be necessary if you buy a bigger motor, bigger battery, and want to take full advantage of its power. Choose one for its specs: size, programming interface, etc...
 
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