spoke nipple diameter

Hello,
I got the 16'' diameter 1.85'' width moped alum rim.
Rim has 7.4mm holes for spokes.
205 qs hub to be installed in the rim.

First question.
What nipple / cap diameter is minimum diameter for the rim hole? I'm referring about nipple D1 and D2 diameters which are visible in attached pic.

Second question.
What is maximum spoke thickness which fits into qs 205 3kw hub spoke holes (without increasing/drilling spoke holes diameter). I'm referring about d1 measurement.

minde28383 said:

Hello,
I got the 16'' diameter 1.85'' width moped alum rim.
Rim has 7.4mm holes for spokes.
205 qs hub to be installed in the rim.

First question.
What nipple / cap diameter is minimum diameter for the rim hole? I'm referring about nipple D1 and D2 diameters which are visible in attached pic.

Second question.
What is maximum spoke thickness which fits into qs 205 3kw hub spoke holes (without increasing/drilling spoke holes diameter). I'm referring about d1 measurement.

Click to expand...

these nipples dimensions from holmes may help?
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55458&p=1040341#p1040341

Thanks for the link.
It's kinda does, but on the other hand it raised the similar questions.

I found that Holmes MMP was offereing 12g, 13g, 14g spokes with
9.5mm nipple head &
6.1mm nipple body

But for example I still don't have idea if 9.5mm nipple head would work with 7.4mm spoke hole in the rim.

minde28383 said:

Thanks for the link.
It's kinda does, but on the other hand it raised the similar questions.

I found that Holmes MMP was offereing 12g, 13g, 14g spokes with
9.5mm nipple head &
6.1mm nipple body

But for example I still don't have idea if 9.5mm nipple head would work with 7.4mm spoke hole in the rim.

Click to expand...

what is the diameter of the spoke holes of the hub and what spoke gauge does the manufacturer recommended for the hub??

Your rim/motor matching spoke sizes are 8, 9 and 10 gauge. Your rim is drilled for .250 and .281 nipples, that are available for 8, 9, and 10 gauge spokes. The standard drilling on the QS 205 does match those sizes too. So, if you don’t want to use washers, the smallest spoke size you would normally fit is 10 gauge, and the biggest would be 8 ga if you don’t want to drill the rim for bigger nipples.

what is the diameter of the spoke holes of the hub and what spoke gauge does the manufacturer recommended for the hub??

Click to expand...

My current wheel is already built and has 3,1mm spokes with 6,1mm nipple body thickness. I can't measure spoke holes neither on rim the nor on the hub as my motor is installed in a old rim. Current wheel was built by manufacture therefore that's the spokes and nipples he is using. I can't measure nipple head as nipples are inside the old rim. I assume manufacturer is using what he would regularly recommend. But it might be that manufacturer fluctuates components in sizes within certain limits.
I has access to new rim with 7.4mm spoke holes and I might rebuilt when need arises. That is why I'm interested what nipple head diameter fits for 7.4mm spoke hole.

MadRhino said:

Your rim/motor matching spoke sizes are 8, 9 and 10 gauge. Your rim is drilled for .250 and .281 nipples, that are available for 8, 9, and 10 gauge spokes. The standard drilling on the QS 205 does match those sizes too. So, if you don’t want to use washers, the smallest spoke size you would normally fit is 10 gauge, and the biggest would be 8 ga if you don’t want to drill the rim for bigger nipples.

Click to expand...

I noticed that out there in far far east these 8 9 and 10 are just approximation to point customers.

Lets see first spoke I found on ali by searching 10g spoke (pic). Ad says it is 10g spoke, 3.1mm shaft, nipple head is 8.85mm, but my new rim spoke hole is 7.4mm, so kinda on edge, ie nipple head barely bigger in diameter than my new rim spoke hole - 7.4mm. Therefore I'm hesitant that all 10g spokes with standard nipples their are usually sold would be enough for 7.4mm rim holes. Some other 10g spokes goes with 8.66mm, some with 9.15mm, other with 8.80mm nipple head diameters. Seems like there a few options to choose. That is why I'm interested what is bare minimum for nipple head diameter to fit 7.4mm rim hole. If nipple head happens to be to too small than it might play a little bit or pop out completely.

Put washers under the spoke nipple heads if the rim holes are too big. Put washers under the spoke heads if the hub holes are too big.

John Rob Holmes/Holmes Hobbies used to sell motorcycle sized nipples for 12ga and 13ga spokes, if I remember correctly. Maybe contact him and see if he still does?

The thinner the spokes you use, the more reliable your wheel will be.

Minde,

FWIW, you can get dedicated washers to fit various spoke nipples. Check the bike shops locally, or maybe the Internet.
The size of the spoke holes in the rim probably won't matter much, using the washers that will exactly fit the nipples.
Automotive paste wax will minimize corrosion between the rim, washers, and spoke nipples, by repelling water.

Chalo said:

Put washers under the spoke nipple heads if the rim holes are too big. Put washers under the spoke heads if the hub holes are too big.

John Rob Holmes/Holmes Hobbies used to sell motorcycle sized nipples for 12ga and 13ga spokes, if I remember correctly. Maybe contact him and see if he still does?

The thinner the spokes you use, the more reliable your wheel will be.

Click to expand...

''The thinner the spokes you use, the more reliable your wheel will be.''
Sounds very true. I agree, it make sense for me.
2.7mm or 3.2 would be best for 12.7kg hub?

X2flier said:

Minde,

FWIW, you can get dedicated washers to fit various spoke nipples. Check the bike shops locally, or maybe the Internet.
The size of the spoke holes in the rim probably won't matter much, using the washers that will exactly fit the nipples.
Automotive paste wax will minimize corrosion between the rim, washers, and spoke nipples, by repelling water.

Click to expand...

Using washers would make things to be done. The thing is that I don't find shop (on internet) which would offer washers for 2.6mm or 2.7mm or 3.1mm or 3.2mm spokes to be used with moto rim with holes 7.4mm.
Holmes says on its site ''if you need washers than look elsewhere''.
If you know a shop offering washers than it would be great if you would write it here.

It might be that nipples sold be Holmes would work for 2.6 spoke and my rim with 7.4mm holes, but maybe there are some EU shop on internet or Holmes is the only option?

I got my spokes from central wheel components uk they had the nipples you mentioned, I built a moped rim for a mxus 3k but be honest I would have used washers and spoked it into a bmx rim if my frame didn't use a 20× 3.00 tyre so I used a 2.15 rim the tyre only needs like 10psi for a decent ride.

minde28383 said:

It might be that nipples sold be Holmes would work for 2.6 spoke and my rim with 7.4mm holes, but maybe there are some EU shop on internet or Holmes is the only option?

Click to expand...

I think Holmes had those nipples custom made for him. I know of no other source.

Belleville washers or convex spherical washers can be useful to reconcile smaller diameter nipples with larger diameter rim holes. I have used flat washers for this job, many times, which become conical in the course of being tightened.

There are no standards for motorcycle nipples. Spokes though, should be pretty standard in sizes.

I like using very common spokes and nipples, to make for easy local replacement. I order the qs 205 custom drilled. I lace them in bicycle rims using 14 ga spokes and long nipples from DT Swiss.

I have been lacing a lot of motorcycle wheels in my life. Nipples are commonly sized by spoke ga, and made in a variety of size/length for each spoke size. See a chart in this page: http://www.buchananspokes.com/nipples/
Nipples don't need to be a perfect match with rim holes. They should de slightly smaller.

The neck of the nipple I used was 6.8mm for the 7.4mm rim hole and the head was 10.2mm i think or there abouts the rim had angled holes for the spokes and I used the ca spoke calc to work out my lengths after I'd measured what hub shift i was using to dish the wheel.

Ianhill said:

I got my spokes from central wheel components uk they had the nipples you mentioned, I built a moped rim for a mxus 3k but be honest I would have used washers and spoked it into a bmx rim if my frame didn't use a 20× 3.00 tyre so I used a 2.15 rim the tyre only needs like 10psi for a decent ride.

Click to expand...

Why would you prefer 20''bmx rim versus 16'''mc rim? MC rim more suited for mc tyre and bmx for bicycle tyre. because of bmx rim is less weight?

I got mc18'' with 2.75tyre. Now I want to try mc16'' 1.6'' rim with 3.25'' or 3.5'' tire. I see benefits of 3.5'' tyres, ie more initial thrust, less alertness less attention to tree roots, little stones, road cracks, and similar little obstacles laying on road in opposite when running with skinny tire.

Central components uk might have various size on request of spokes and nipples, but they too don't care to include drawing of their nipples on their site nevertheless they do provide ready available measurements on their rims and they have a lot. I definitely add them to bookmarks for future references.
Others sellers on ali don't even care to include sizes of their sold nipples too. Even when asked they don't provide measurements. Responses were: sorry don't know or don't have it. How technical... These were bizarre sellers. I found two or three like that. From feedback I see people still buy from them and when item does not fit I assume they drill or put washers accordingly.
On the other hand there is seller on ali who provide every and each measurements of spokes and nipples he has on stock in a nice distinctive ad, banner. I like him most, but for all these measured items he asks twice or triple the price compared with sellers who don't provide measurements. I can't call it unfair. He did nice job with fraction caliper. I keep him as reference definitely.
I've spend quite a bit of time and found few sources regarding spokes, thanks to ES community, you, and this forum.

Its was an a2b metro so stock it had 20inch bmx rims but your right 16 inch moped rims was what I was swaping too, they so close in size to the stock rim the bmx fat tyre fitted the 16 rim fine.

X2flier said:

Minde,

FWIW, you can get dedicated washers to fit various spoke nipples. Check the bike shops locally, or maybe the Internet.
The size of the spoke holes in the rim probably won't matter much, using the washers that will exactly fit the nipples.
Automotive paste wax will minimize corrosion between the rim, washers, and spoke nipples, by repelling water.

Click to expand...

Yes curved washers, I have bought them but never used them. Ran into same problem with my first and only motor, mxus 3kw v2. Large holes on motor flanges.

Chalo said:

I think Holmes had those nipples custom made for him. I know of no other source. I believe that to be correct, because he also had his own rims, whether they were custom or rebadged I dunno.

Belleville washers or convex spherical washers can be useful to reconcile smaller diameter nipples with larger diameter rim holes. I have used flat washers for this job, many times, which become conical in the course of being tightened. I too have done that, the washers do curve to the hole.

Click to expand...

MadRhino said:

There are no standards for motorcycle nipples. Spokes though, should be pretty standard in sizes.

I like using very common spokes and nipples, to make for easy local replacement. I order the qs 205 custom drilled. I lace them in bicycle rims using 14 ga spokes and long nipples from DT Swiss.

I have been lacing a lot of motorcycle wheels in my life. Nipples are commonly sized by spoke ga, and made in a variety of size/length for each spoke size. See a chart in this page: http://www.buchananspokes.com/nipples/
Nipples don't need to be a perfect match with rim holes. They should de slightly smaller.

Click to expand...

Not sure why I wanted to quote that, I think I was going to mention dont buy generic spokes/nipples if you are building a wheel that you want reliability from. Oh I know what I wanted to mention, Spoke Prep or Boiled Linseed Oil is good.

minde28383 said:

Ianhill said:

I got my spokes from central wheel components uk they had the nipples you mentioned, I built a moped rim for a mxus 3k but be honest I would have used washers and spoked it into a bmx rim if my frame didn't use a 20× 3.00 tyre so I used a 2.15 rim the tyre only needs like 10psi for a decent ride.
SpinningMagnets Article: 17-inch moped interface is very similar to a bicycle 20-inch, and the 19-inch moped interface is very similar to a 24-inch bicycle interface.

Click to expand...

Why would you prefer 20''bmx rim versus 16'''mc rim? MC rim more suited for mc tyre and bmx for bicycle tyre. because of bmx rim is less weight? moto's are heavier is my guess, bicyce is lighter, unsprung weight is a factor, all depends on what you want, what is available, and the price you want.

I got mc18'' with 2.75tyre. Now I want to try mc16'' 1.6'' rim with 3.25'' or 3.5'' tire. I see benefits of 3.5'' tyres, ie more initial thrust, less alertness less attention to tree roots, little stones, road cracks, and similar little obstacles laying on road in opposite when running with skinny tire. I have a steel 16x1.60 used, pitted but it should work well, Shinko 16x3.0 tire SR something 241 maybe. Going to put in my GTS Frame has 160 rear dropouts, and the downtube can hold batteries. Its going to be a fat bike, full suspension. Needs welding work, as I broke off the suspension mount. 6'5" 375lbs


Please buy brand name parts, going generic is not wise, especially if you want a reliable ride. www.ebikes.ca has spokes but not 10awg. They do have double butted. Check them out.
Others sellers on ali don't even care to include sizes of their sold nipples too. Even when asked they don't provide measurements. Responses were: sorry don't know or don't have it. How technical... These were bizarre sellers. I found two or three like that. From feedback I see people still buy from them and when item does not fit I assume they drill or put washers accordingly.
On the other hand there is seller on ali who provide every and each measurements of spokes and nipples he has on stock in a nice distinctive ad, banner. I like him most, but for all these measured items he asks twice or triple the price compared with sellers who don't provide measurements. I can't call it unfair. He did nice job with fraction caliper. I keep him as reference definitely.
I've spend quite a bit of time and found few sources regarding spokes, thanks to ES community, you, and this forum.

Click to expand...

Chalo said:

Put washers under the spoke nipple heads if the rim holes are too big. Put washers under the spoke heads if the hub holes are too big.

John Rob Holmes/Holmes Hobbies used to sell motorcycle sized nipples for 12ga and 13ga spokes, if I remember correctly. Maybe contact him and see if he still does?

The thinner the spokes you use, the more reliable your wheel will be.

Click to expand...

I told a story of a "Wheel Guy" as they termed the nice fellow. Whom I paid to lace up, as I was tired of whatever I was doing wrong not working. That go around fresh Sapim 10awg. He laced it so valve was at the bottom of the V of the spokes, hard to get the air in, but its doable. Basics man basics, even my dumb brain knows that, what he did I shrug my shoulders I dont want to rock the boat, I am too nice a guy! He it lasted longer then I thought even though I dont go hard core, though a few times I wanted to test it out, curbs at speed. Just did a tightening, 2 or 3 spokes out of nips, slight wobble not bad, 4 spokes more loose. 3 days riding like that, on purpose. I could see he used some thread stuff because "Wheel Guy" left it on the rim, dust sticks to it.
I tell ya I paid a lot for them spokes/nipples. I paid upfront for double butted 14/13 and got a call about the flange hole sizes and have to go to 10awg. Was told $5 in price difference. Then told $50 price difference. I said, washers please. Some jibberish was explained to me and I didn't want to explain so let it slide. Store is "unique" to say the least. Some odd customer/employee interactions that I just shrug my shoulders, smile and be nice. Like you say Chalo, thicker is not better, need the flex.

The question that I have with spoke washers for the J bend is wouldnt the spoke move around?
Or is the spoke head embedded with the washer, curving the wwasher to conform to the flange dimensions. You'd need a tighter center hole on the washer for a snug fit right. I remember going through that when I got my mxus 3kw v2.

Go to an extreme example of a way too smaller spoke for the flange hole, is there a limit to difference?

Flange washer can be made quickly with alu pop rivets. They embed the flange hole easily with a punch, and they last. I have been doing that for 5 years, repeatedly using the same washers every time I rebuilt wheels with the Cromotor.

Rim washers for bicycle rims are best when they are oval, and angle drilled. PITA to make them, preferably from brass washers.

River

MadRhino said:

Flange washer can be made quickly with alu pop rivets. They embed the flange hole easily with a punch, and they last. I have been doing that for 5 years, repeatedly using the same washers every time I rebuilt wheels with the Cromotor.

Rim washers for bicycle rims are best when they are oval, and angle drilled. PITA to make them, preferably from brass washers.

Click to expand...

Wow that is genius idea. I can't google find one to see installed on in a hub flange hole. Can you point to or have pic of hub with rivets installed? Now when you wrote about rivets it makes sense. Plus these are from alum therefore easy to increase slightly hole diameter if needed .

minde28383 said:

Wow that is genius idea. I can't google find one to see installed on in a hub flange hole. Can you point to or have pic of hub with rivets installed? Now when you wrote about rivets it makes sense. Plus these are from alum therefore easy to increase slightly hole diameter if needed .

Click to expand...

MadRhino said:

Flange washer can be made quickly with alu pop rivets. They embed the flange hole easily with a punch, and they last. I have been doing that for 5 years, repeatedly using the same washers every time I rebuilt wheels with the Cromotor.






Rim washers for bicycle rims are best when they are oval, and angle drilled. PITA to make them, preferably from brass washers.

Click to expand...

Pop rivets are fitting 12 ga spokes, but when they are punched in the flange hole they compress easily to match any smaller spoke. I cut the length of the alu rivet about the corresponding flange thickness. To cut them, I spin them on the drill and use the corner of a coarse file, to cut them taper. After the wheel is laced, I punch each of them flush with the motor flange, using a plastic mallet.

I had posted a detailed wheel building using washers for both, flange and rim. But that was many years ago in someone elses thread, and I gave up trying to find it.

Here is the only pic in my phone where you can see them. I have sold that bike a while ago, so I can’t offer you a better pic. You can see 2 of them pop rivets cut and used as flange washers in that pic, at the left of the caliper, over the brake hose.

I just got myself a kuberg freerider and i found out they have a proprietary rear sprocket with 7 bolts on an iso disc size mount with a 15mm through axle hub.
I'm going to have to get an old 36h rear oset hub strip the axle out and machine it to fit cartridge bearings so I can use it with the stock kuberg axle, I'll use a 6-1 ratio rather than a 8-1 I've got a set of 20 inch dx32 rims and the oset 219 alloy gokart sprocket carrier so I'll spoke them up and try keep it light with bmx tyres, it will have a mini supermoto feel to it then and top out at 50mph it should be wicked with the 12kw controller.
I managed to get one second hand from a trails centre needed some love but it came stock with bigger 3.00 14 rim 12kw controller and the dorado fork thtas just an honour to ride only thing I need is a 110mm front axle for the beefy 20mm through axle and I'll have two rimsets then off-road geared 8-1 and on road 6-1.
Only thing now is I've had orders to get my a2b metro gone or I'll be out the door before it so looks like I'll be selling that soon discounted to get it shifted