40-50 mph 75 mile range

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Evtom30   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Jan 07 2019 2:49pm

40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by Evtom30 » Jan 09 2019 3:14pm

Hello to all I am new to this forum sorry in advance if there is another thread that explains this, but anyway these are my ebike requirements, I am relatively new to powered bikes in general but every gas powered vehicle I have owned has been tuned full bolt ons ect, so I like stuff that goes fast and I have been researching these ebikes and plan on building one but I'm not quite sure how to get the range and speed I want which I believe comes down to battery and controller and motor. I don't need that speed constantly but I would like to have it when I need it basically this is gonna be a commuter to work and back to stores ect.
Now I have had my heart set on a Qs 273 but because of drop out size I believe I would need a custom swing arm made so I would settle with a 205 if I could get a decent range and 35-40mph cruising speed with out over heating but if I need hub sinks so be it the main thing I don't really understand is the li ion battery no matter how many YouTube vids I've watched I can't seem to figure out size watts amp hours I need. Thanks in advance
I also live in Florida no hills
Weight 145
And plan on using a enduro frame kit

billvon   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2764
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by billvon » Jan 09 2019 3:51pm

Evtom30 wrote:
Jan 09 2019 3:14pm
Hello to all I am new to this forum sorry in advance if there is another thread that explains this, but anyway these are my ebike requirements.
You'll want something like this:

https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fx/

90 mile range in the city, which would give you a reliable 75 miles under most conditions. And do it safely.
--bill von

flat tire   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1521
Joined: Feb 26 2014 12:20am

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by flat tire » Jan 09 2019 4:27pm

I wouldn't run any hub motor over a few KW in anything but a custom swingarm. Easy enough to get one made, simple job for a fabricator / welder. I say this as someone who loves high power ebikes.

For a relaxed body position and average speed of 45 mph on a mountain bike you'll need something like 6kWh of battery capacity for that range. That's a very big, heavy, and probably expensive battery.

Here are some problems I've discovered with high power ebikes. They are all surmountable but probably not in a way you consider practical.

Brakes: I've got Magura MT7 with the 203MM rotors and while they will stoppie the bike at slow speed, they will just fry on a panic stop from 50+ mph and you won't stop fast. Long story short you need motorcycle brakes as the thermal capacity just isn't there in bike brakes.

Wheelies: I don't consider this a problem, but a QS205 used halfway to its potential will easily power wheelie over 30 mph. Be careful.

Controller: Good controllers are expensive. A shitty cheaper controller with bad throttle response won't be worth your time. My BAC4000 was like $700, and worth every penny. Same with the throttle. Domino or other high end throttle is recommended.

Injury: If you're experienced you know that it's only a matter of time before shit happens and you fall off a bike at high speed, even if it's not your fault. Consider protective gear. If you believe you control your destiny and you won't crash, you have no experience and are at extremely high risk of severe injury.

Comfort: Riding a bicycle for extended periods of time is unpleasant and you are better served by a motorcycle for your use.

General mechanical challenges: that much speed and power needs full suspension, but it has to be downhill or other beefed up suspension otherwise it will fail after a while. The same applies to your frame. Imagine the head tube breaking off. They're not that strong in a regular bike, definitely not meant for heavy forces that can be encountered at 50+ and it would suck.

So, I actually recommend you make a high speed ebike because they are really fun, but you need to be prepared with accurate knowledge or you will have many misconceptions that can ruin your day (or life).

Evtom30   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Jan 07 2019 2:49pm

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by Evtom30 » Jan 09 2019 4:32pm

That would be great except its outta my price range needs to be tagged and registered with an endorsement which I don't have, I plan on building this thing little by little over the course of a year, and I have been researching the s$#t out of this subject just can't seem to figure out exactly what combination of parts I need I mean even if I have to give up some range for the extra speed I could live with that I just need the mph and maybe a 40 mile range but I plan on putting 500w stickers ect on it to throw off authorities since I don't have a license it is what it is and I am sure I'm not the only one but I mean I'm 30 and minimum insurance is 150 a month plus gas cost I'm sick of it there has got to be an easier way now what I didn't mention because I didn't think it was necessary was that I work 2 miles away the little Walmart is 1.5 miles away and the clinic I have to go to is 5 miles away with the highest sschwed limit being 55mph so I don't travel far but I want the speed for fun mainly and I also don't really plan on using the road itself for my travels since there are sidewalks everywhere I would need to travel hopefully this is a better description of what I need thanks in advance also just become the new owner of a Schwinn Delmar cruiser if that helps

flat tire   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1521
Joined: Feb 26 2014 12:20am

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by flat tire » Jan 09 2019 4:41pm

Stickers won't throw off the authorities, slowing down when they're around and pretending to pedal so you don't get hassled in the first place will.

It sounds like you don't have the budget to do what you want in any practical fashion. Try the cheapest 1000W hub motor kit you can find with a 1KW battery. That will be the best possible scenario for you. Ebikes are really not appropriate for a frugal lifestyle unless you're a tinkerer who can make his own battery and do everything else.

billvon   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2764
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by billvon » Jan 09 2019 4:50pm

Evtom30 wrote:
Jan 09 2019 4:32pm
That would be great except its outta my price range needs to be tagged and registered with an endorsement which I don't have, I plan on building this thing little by little over the course of a year, and I have been researching the s$#t out of this subject just can't seem to figure out exactly what combination of parts I need I mean even if I have to give up some range for the extra speed I could live with that I just need the mph and maybe a 40 mile range but I plan on putting 500w stickers ect on it to throw off authorities since I don't have a license it is what it is and I am sure I'm not the only one but I mean I'm 30 and minimum insurance is 150 a month plus gas cost I'm sick of it there has got to be an easier way now what I didn't mention because I didn't think it was necessary was that I work 2 miles away the little Walmart is 1.5 miles away and the clinic I have to go to is 5 miles away with the highest sschwed limit being 55mph so I don't travel far but I want the speed for fun mainly and I also don't really plan on using the road itself for my travels since there are sidewalks everywhere I would need to travel hopefully this is a better description of what I need thanks in advance also just become the new owner of a Schwinn Delmar cruiser if that helps
OK wow that was one very big run on sentence!

First off "building it little by little" will be very hard to do. You can't buy a cheap frame and upgrade it later, you can't buy a cheap motor and upgrade it later without getting rid of the old motor, you can't fit a bigger battery into a smaller frame etc. You basically have to start with a DH frame and those don't fit batteries very well.

For a hub motor you'd be looking at 2.5 to 3kW to get you to 40mph, and that's pushing the limit of commercially available motors. You might get that out of a Crystalyte Crown with heatsinking and statorade.

That also means a ~4kW battery pack to get you a 40 mile range at that speed. You can get a 5kWhr pack from a salvaged Tesla, but even going that super cheap route you are looking at the wrong voltage to start with, a 55lb battery that's the wrong size - AND it costs around $1500. And with a battery that big you basically have to design the bike around it, rather than shoehorning it in somewhere.

If you really want to get to work, then build a high end commuter - say with a 1500 watt motor and a 1kwhr battery pack. That will be fairly fun and will get you to work very reliably, and the components for such a bike are readily available (and not too expensive.)

If you really just want to have fun, then save your money, buy an e-motorcycle and use it off road only (no license needed.) Use the Scwhinn to get to work; 2 miles is nothing.

But trying to have the best of both worlds for not much money will be very hard to do. You can try it if you like, and you will learn a lot about ebikes in the process. But you'll either end up with something that's basically an electric motorcycle (and doesn't look like a bicycle) or something like a high end electric bike.
--bill von

2WheelsMovesTheSoul   100 W

100 W
Posts: 181
Joined: Oct 17 2017 12:59pm

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by 2WheelsMovesTheSoul » Jan 09 2019 5:34pm

I already have the bike you want: EEB Frame, QS205 3t motor, KLS7230s controller, 20s14p battery pack capable of 150+a, DNM's front and rear, 18" moto tires-tubes-rims, custom dual 203mm front brake setup with 4 pot calipers and half that setup on the rear. Easily over $3k in the hole on my EEB.

It rips up to 60mph, but the best range I've EVER got was just under 19 miles. Wasn't exactly trying to be as conservative and efficient as possible but when you actually have a battery with enough capacity and solid controller that can really let a 205 eat... your range will take a huge nose dive.

Those short, maybe 10 second bursts of 100a current draw, say quickly accelerating from 15mph to 50mph, is consuming 3 to 10x more juice per second than just holding steady at 20mph.

I'd start with a well reviewed 1000w basic kit, then spend the bulk of your money buying the largest, most dense battery you can fit and just learn to accept the range your setup has.

I wanted something I could charge once on Sunday night, ride roughly 8 miles each day and then recharge Friday night. I planned, budgeted and built for that range. I even spent more than I planned by adding another 40 cells to the pack at the last minute.

Build gets done, start riding the next Monday, by Tuesday night I needed my first recharge. Thursday came around and I had to plug in again. After 2 weeks, it was obvious that I like speed far more than boasting about "only have to plug it in once a week".

I kinda started off with "oh... it'll be super economic, I wont have to pay for gas, only have to charge it once a week, Uncle Sam and the DMV can suck my bawls... but that 205 properly powered is no fuggin joke and BTW will take like 70lbs of li-po to get you 50mph and 75 miles of range. There just ain't enough room for that kind of battery on a pedal bike.

User avatar
MadRhino   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sep 03 2010 5:28pm
Location: Montreal QC Canada

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by MadRhino » Jan 09 2019 8:43pm

75 miles range at 50 mph does require too much batteries to fit on a bicycle and make a good ride, except if you do it non stop. Every stop and start, acceleration to 50 Mph, does consume a lot.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

User avatar
E-HP   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 576
Joined: Nov 01 2018 9:20pm

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by E-HP » Jan 09 2019 9:10pm

Evtom30 wrote:That would be great except its outta my price range
I missed the post with the price range. Maybe best to start with that, which will determine if it’s even possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7315
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by markz » Jan 09 2019 10:05pm

Your battery is going to be too large for 40-50mph and 75miles.
You'd need a trailer to carry your battery!

User avatar
MJSfoto1956   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 584
Joined: Jul 28 2010 9:28pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Jan 09 2019 10:38pm

billvon wrote:
Jan 09 2019 4:50pm
OK wow that was one very big run on sentence!
Even William Faulkner would be impressed.

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 27264
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by amberwolf » Jan 09 2019 11:14pm

Some potentially useful information (though some of it might sound like a lecture, it's not; just pointing out some things you might not have thought of).


FWIW, my ~2kWh EIG NMC battery on SB Cruiser is nearly 40lbs and the size of several large hardback books (or a couple of 50cal ammocans stacked up).

If it took only 6kWh to do what you want (might take 8) then that's around 120lbs of batteries, and quite a bit of volume to pack on a bicycle frame (of any kind). Even my heavy-duty CrazyBike2 built as a cargo bike would have some trouble dealing with that, unless I redesigned parts of it.

Another issue is braking safely, from the higher speeds with the higher weights.


I think what you are after is, as others have pointed out, an electric motorcycle, even though it is not what you want, it is what you are really going to end up with.


You could build a custom bicycle frame that could handle what you want to do with it, including braking and suspension needs, but I suspect the size and costs and whatnot would end up clunkier and more expensive than just buying something like the Zero (possibly even including insurance).


Dealing with law enforcement is another issue--when you exceed the local limitations placed upon bicycle class stuff as far as you want to, you risk LE taking notice of you in a way that's likely to end up with you losing the bike completely (and possibly tickets or fines, etc). So you might consider that before you exceed the limits. Sometimes if you are riding safely and within the rules of the road (even though what you're riding doesn't match the rules), LE will ignore you, but sometimes they won't, just because it's unusual in appearance, or if it's something that *looks* like ti should be a plated vehicle (motorcycle styling) and they don't see a plate.

User avatar
E-HP   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 576
Joined: Nov 01 2018 9:20pm

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by E-HP » Jan 09 2019 11:46pm

One thing nice about the e-bike motor simulator is that you can put in the bike weight and the grade of the terrain, and plot a graph with only the load line displaying. That will approximate the physical power necessary to propel a bike at a specified speed. Physical power doesn't account for the electrical losses of the system, so the electrical power is something greater than the physical power. But let's say that there are no losses, and just compute the power and energy necessary to meet the specified 50 mph and 75 mile range:

This graph assumes a zero grade, and a 220 lb bike and rider combined. I'm guessing the bike and rider will weigh more, due the battery necessary, but that can be adjusted later. So to attain a speed of 50 mph, you need about 4300 watts of power. This means to ride 50 miles, you need 4300 watt hours of energy. 75 miles would require about 6450 watt hours. If we assume a 72 volt battery, that would mean 90 ah of capacity, which is something like 20S30P, I think, or 600 cells. That's about 75 lbs of battery. If the rider is 145 lb, and you add 75 lbs, that's already 220 lbs. (the assumed total weight). Add in the bike and motor weight, and now you need an even bigger battery. The 20S30P battery may cost something on the order of $3000 if it's made with quality cells. Is that still within budget? If so, now add in the cost of the bike, motor, and controller, and see if that's still within the budget.
sim 50.jpg
Note: If you're going to keep all your riding at 40 mph or below, then you only need half the battery, which would be lot better on the budget ($1500 battery?).

User avatar
MadRhino   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sep 03 2010 5:28pm
Location: Montreal QC Canada

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by MadRhino » Jan 10 2019 2:57am

30p is horrible battery configuration IMO.

I would consider big prismatic cells a must, for a long range bike.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

Ianhill   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1606
Joined: Sep 25 2015 5:55pm

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by Ianhill » Jan 10 2019 3:05am

20s22p sanyo 20700b cells, it's about £1400 In cells without nickel or bms so $3000 is in the ballpark for a completed pack and expect a weight of 14kg for cells alone.

Evtom30   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Jan 07 2019 2:49pm

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by Evtom30 » Jan 10 2019 7:45am

Thanks for all the input guys. I am kinda gonna go different route, I originally wanted full electric because of the noise level compared to a four stroke bike and because I thought you had to have a license for any gas bike no matter what cc it is .
Turns out I read the laws wrong so maybe down the road I will build my emotorcycle cause electric is the future no denying that just the battery technology isn't quite there yet maybe in another five to ten years.
Anyway I'm gonna go with a hybrid type system with a four stroke powering the rear and either a 1000w or 1500 w dd on the front I will use electric early in the morning and on my higher speed sections crank up the four stroke,hell maybe I could design some sort of alternator to charge the electric side while the four stroke is in use
Anyways thanks for all the input

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 34930
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by dogman dan » Jan 10 2019 8:18am

Well, you WILL get attention from the cops, if you build for more than 30 mph. Sounds like you lost your license, and plan to keep stacking more years of don't have one onto it to me.


Something like this can carry 2000 wh of battery, 48v 40 ah, go 30 mph, and not get too much attention from cops. Fake pedal like hell when you see them.

It used to be a Schwinn del mar, but I welded 9 inches more length, and gave it disk brakes.
6-1-2015  Schwinn Cruiser with 52 t crank.JPG

Your del mar cannot have a rear motor, because then you would have no brakes at all. So at the very least, you gotta weld a disk mount to it in back. You could swap forks for a rim brake up front, or just weld on a disk mount there too. once you solve that, you can add 7 rear gears, as I did, with a cheap bolt on derailleur. You can follow the beach cruiser link in my sig, to the full build thread

You don't need much range now, so start out with 48v 20 ah, and a 1000w 48v kit. This bike has gone 40 mph, but above 30 is sketchy, even with the extra length. No shocks limits your speed, but longer helped. It gets the wobbles at about 40 mph.

Just building it as a gasser for now does make some sense ( mostly cost), but worth it IMO, to go electric and avoid the stink, noise and vibration.

Ianhill   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1606
Joined: Sep 25 2015 5:55pm

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by Ianhill » Jan 10 2019 10:01am

I agree with dan this build is for the hard-core an ebike can be very capable with alot less power if your willing to pedal and accept less speed it's possible to cover up to 35mile with just 36v 350wh in around 3 hours or so, in the summer time it can be a nice relaxing ride rather than a commute but be no good for taking you to work in a rush for that I manage to keep my licence and only got to 9 points with an extremely unlucky turn of events.

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7961
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by Chalo » Jan 10 2019 10:24am

dogman dan wrote:
Jan 10 2019 8:18am
Sounds like you lost your license, and plan to keep stacking more years of don't have one onto it to me.
That's what it sounds like to me. And that's the predominant demographic I see at the stinking gas bike forums. They're touchy about it, too-- I had an entire thread nuked just because I posted asking who was doing it because they'd lost their license. Those guys would definitely still be driving (drunk) if they thought they could get away with it.

I'm not sure why the difference between e-bikes and gas bikes in that regard, but it's there for sure. Gas bikes are the clear choice of the lost-yer-license crowd.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

billvon   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2764
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by billvon » Jan 10 2019 11:51am

Evtom30 wrote:
Jan 10 2019 7:45am
Anyway I'm gonna go with a hybrid type system with a four stroke powering the rear and either a 1000w or 1500 w dd on the front
If your goal is "don't get caught by the cops" then a gas engine is a very, very bad idea.
I will use electric early in the morning and on my higher speed sections crank up the four stroke,hell maybe I could design some sort of alternator to charge the electric side while the four stroke is in use
You don't need an alternator with a DD hub.
--bill von

Warren   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1322
Joined: Oct 05 2010 11:35am

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by Warren » Jan 10 2019 11:56am

Chalo wrote:
Jan 10 2019 10:24am
I'm not sure why the difference between e-bikes and gas bikes in that regard, but it's there for sure. Gas bikes are the clear choice of the lost-yer-license crowd.
The difference is price...same reason most drive gas cars. The fuel savings sound good, but the upfront cost difference is huge.

donn   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 364
Joined: Aug 13 2018 10:30am
Location: Seattle

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by donn » Jan 10 2019 1:51pm

dogman dan wrote:
Jan 10 2019 8:18am
Sounds like you lost your license
I believe he's actually talking about the motorcycle endorsement, as mentioned in post 1. It isn't required in my area for motors under 100cc - and I believe they're also required to stay under 30mph, maybe with a cutoff built in to make sure. The endorsement requires a test, and the way I think most people do it here is take a two day safety class, where they also administer the test on the second day. It isn't super expensive, as the state subsidizes it, and most people learn something of value. (I already had an endorsement but took it anyway, and unfortunately cost them a good deal more than I paid when I hit the front brake hard with the motorcycle not completely straight up, and wiped out on a stopping drill. Luckily the motorcycle was a little 250cc thing, it landed on my foot, which taught me about the inadequacy of cheap hiking boots.) The worst thing about is that they're often packed fairly far in advance, so it might take months to get it out of the way. Lots of scooter riders take it.

Evtom30   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Jan 07 2019 2:49pm

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by Evtom30 » Jan 10 2019 2:33pm

Well my license is suspended at the moment for lack of insurance I lost my job got pulled with a suspended didn't go to jail but lost my truck which I planned to convert to electric but shit happens.
Anyway that's the deal with my license.
The Delmar is gonna need new rims before I can even ride it with peddle power due to an extreme amount of rust on the wheels so anyway that's where I'm at with this project.
As far as the brakes go I'm gonna try to find a decent suspension fork and run a disc brake


And dogman you literally have the exact bike I have same color and everything lol
Last edited by Evtom30 on Jan 10 2019 2:44pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
wturber   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1898
Joined: Aug 23 2017 8:52pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by wturber » Jan 10 2019 3:31pm

Evtom30 wrote:
Jan 10 2019 7:45am
Thanks for all the input guys. I am kinda gonna go different route, I originally wanted full electric because of the noise level compared to a four stroke bike and because I thought you had to have a license for any gas bike no matter what cc it is .
Turns out I read the laws wrong so maybe down the road I will build my emotorcycle cause electric is the future no denying that just the battery technology isn't quite there yet maybe in another five to ten years.
Anyway I'm gonna go with a hybrid type system with a four stroke powering the rear and either a 1000w or 1500 w dd on the front I will use electric early in the morning and on my higher speed sections crank up the four stroke,hell maybe I could design some sort of alternator to charge the electric side while the four stroke is in use
Anyways thanks for all the input
Seems awfully complicated for a 2-5 mile ride that you could do just fine on a regular bike.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

billvon   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2764
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: 40-50 mph 75 mile range

Post by billvon » Jan 10 2019 4:01pm

Evtom30 wrote:
Jan 10 2019 2:33pm
Well my license is suspended at the moment for lack of insurance I lost my job got pulled with a suspended didn't go to jail but lost my truck which I planned to convert to electric but shit happens.
Anyway that's the deal with my license.
The Delmar is gonna need new rims before I can even ride it with peddle power due to an extreme amount of rust on the wheels so anyway that's where I'm at with this project.
So fix the Delmar first, or sell it and buy a $200 bike from Craigslist. That will get you to work.

Then save up to build an ebike. There are lots of options out there. But it's not going to give you what you think it can.
--bill von

Post Reply