Convince me to upgrade to a sine wave controller.

G

Grider

100 mW
Joined
Oct 30, 2017
Messages
36
My setup: 26" 48v 1500w rear hub motor (52v battery), w/ 35A square wave controller that came with the kit.

It runs fine but I have been thinking of upgrading to a sine wave controller for the longest time.
I don't know anybody else who has an ebike with a sine wave controller, so there's no way for me see in person what it's like.

Anybody and everybody here in the Endless Sphere Universe, please convince me to upgrade to a sine wave controller and reasons why I should. Thanks
 
I have a similar kit.
Will it smooth out the acceleration? If yes, I would have to get one for that reason alone
 
The hubs that are rated for 1500W typically have a 35mm wide stator. At 35A, it will not get hot at all.

I recommend looking for a controller that can provide 60A-70A. That way, when you have occasional bursts of 50A, the controller will not get hot.

If you decide to get a bigger controller, then why not get a sine wave?
 
Very, very good points. Especially the one about being able to have occasional 50A bursts of speed.

Can somebody please describe how a sine wave controller feels? Also, how is the acceleration and is the range increased because it's more efficient?
 
A sinewave 12fet is 130.00 plus bells and wichles . Like a Powervelocity bt has a lot of adjustments on the phone or something cheaper lot's of different quality and models. Should have a better thread for controllers. Prices and problems. My sinewave is dead silent. You must have a battery to support 60amps or a little more headroom. Or else you will be on the battery section of E.S. for advice to fix it. Or why is it pregant.
 
Grider said:
- occasional 50A bursts of speed.
Can somebody please describe how a sine wave controller feels?
Also, how is the acceleration and is the range increased because it's more efficient?
Click to expand...

Grider said:
My setup: 26" 48v 1500w rear hub motor (52v battery), w/ 35A square wave controller that came with the kit.

It runs fine but I have been thinking of upgrading to a sine wave controller for the longest time.
I don't know anybody else who has an ebike with a sine wave controller, so there's no way for me see in person what it's like.

Anybody and everybody here in the Endless Sphere Universe, please convince me to upgrade to a sine wave controller and reasons why I should. Thanks
Click to expand...

I am quite sorry, but I refuse to convince you to upgrade to a sine wave controller. Just do not do it, them square wave aka trapezoidal waveform controllers are good enough. No need for silence, too much wind blowing in your face to hear squat. If there is pertinent need to go silence, trying to blend into the background and not stick out then there is a need for that I guess. You can do many things with them old skool traps, shunt mod to get a bit of extra kick on the acceleration. Generic controllers are fine! Save your money!
 
Honestly, the only significant difference you'll really notice between sine and trap is the sine is quieter (usually a LOT quieter), on a DD hubmotor.

(on any system using a gear reduction, you may not notice a difference, because the gearing may be louder than teh motor).

Grider said:
Can somebody please describe how a sine wave controller feels? Also, how is the acceleration and is the range increased because it's more efficient?
Click to expand...
Range and acceleration won't change sine vs trap.

Range will go down with a more powerful controller (of any kind), because:
--you will use the power more
--accelerations will use more of your capacity, and be quicker, assuming the motor itself can utilize the extra current to make more torque.
The more stops and starts you ahve, and possibly the more hills, the more you'll see the higher power usage.



"feel" depends on the controller, motor, etc.

Generally a trap controller is more growly, rumbly, at startup and during acceleration.

Generally a sine controller will be smooth(er), depending on the motor itself.


The sensorless FOC sinewave controller I'm testing for Incememed, the SFOC5, is very smooth acceleration. But in the testing done so far, the power didn't really pour on until I am above several MPH, so the acceleration from a stop wasn't all that great. Firmware changes ahve been made since then to help this, but I haven't been able to test yet as I am still working on fixing the broken axle on the motor I was using for the tests. :oops:

Sensored controllers probably don't have this issue, but the sensorless ones might, depending on the control algorithm they use.
 
Wow....Great responses. I was about to unload a shiny penny for the Grintech Phaserunner. Now I'm just going to stick with what I have.
 
A phaserunner is a FOC controller and is very different than a trapezoidial / sine wave controller.

A FOC would give you the best efficiency possible, wildly customizable throttle response, would be even quieter than a sine wave controller, phase advance, and other goodies.
 
neptronix said:
A phaserunner is a FOC controller and is very different than a trapezoidial / sine wave controller.

A FOC would give you the best efficiency possible, wildly customizable throttle response, would be even quieter than a sine wave controller, phase advance, and other goodies.
Click to expand...

In a blink of an eye I am back to eyeballing Grintech's Phaserunner.

Can anybody else say even more nice things about it? Personal experiences with it?
 
You might check out some of the builds / etc done with it, see what they have to say. (some of the threads blewo are questions or troulbesohoting rather than build threads, but may also give you info to help decide):

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=phaserunner&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=phase+runner&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Or the sale/support thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65031&hilit=phaserunner#p976242
 
Grider said:
Can anybody else say even more nice things about it? Personal experiences with it?
Click to expand...
I have used two so far and been very happy with them. Phase advance lets you optimize your battery voltage for range/price and not be limited on top speed. The programmability of the controller allows easy tweaks to phase/battery current limits.

That being said, if you are happy with your existing controller, there is no reason to replace it. FOC's aren't magic.
 
I'm using a PowerVelocity sine wave controller on my A2B Metro. The PV controller is not true FOC but has most of the same features. It is completely silent compared to the stock controller and has much smoother response. It has regenerative braking and field weakening, which gives you a higher top speed for the same battery voltage. It does not have all the features of a PhaseRunner, but it is much less expensive and much less complex to set up. I don't use the Bluetooth smart phone app with mine, but it has a lot of nice features.
 
Grider said:
In a blink of an eye I am back to eyeballing Grintech's Phaserunner.

Can anybody else say even more nice things about it? Personal experiences with it?
Click to expand...

Well here's an unexpected plot twist for you then.
If you're looking for more power, you might not find it in the phaserunner due to it's low phase amps ( ~90A, but your controller may be putting out 100A with some headroom to expand on that ).

The controller can also be a pain to program. Look into what's involved before you buy.

The end result will be a fantastic level of control over the motor, but.. maybe not for the light of heart to get it going :)
 
Oh I forgot to mention, if you have a geared motor, them gears make noise. Them direct drives + sine wave controller = ultimate silence, but there is a price to be paid. As I mentioned, you wont hear nothing cuz there will be too much wind blowing across your ears along with a wide large grin of happiness cruising along on your ebike.
 
I recently switched my cargo e-bike over to my old c. 2003 Crystalyte 5305 hub motor and controller. Even though it's direct drive, it's much, much louder than the BBS02 it replaced. But I like the sci-fi noises it makes-- especially the resonant singing it does at cruising speed.

If I wanted my bike to be stealthy, the noise would be a problem. But then, so would having a hub as big as a frying pan.
 
I like how screamy geared motors are on trap controllers, especially. I guess it's an acquired taste.
 
neptronix said:
I like how screamy geared motors are on trap controllers, especially. I guess it's an acquired taste.
Click to expand...

LOL gear sounds + trap sounds LOL

Kelly Controllers are a decent price, they state phase amps.
Power Velocity as mentioned are good units too.

Too expensive for me. One day I will buy either one, one day.
Creme de'la Creme is them Adaptto controllers, man one of those would rock!
 
markz said:
Creme de'la Creme is them Adaptto controllers, man one of those would rock!
Click to expand...
Until it breaks, based on what I've read from various threads around the forum. :/
 
fechter said:
... I don't use the Bluetooth smart phone app with mine, but it has a lot of nice features.
Click to expand...

I just wanted to chime in on that. For someone who doesn't need the bluetooth programming function, the controllers from West Coast Electric Cycles would fit the bill nicely. They are modified sine wave as well and have a slightly lower price-tag. I've been using one for a few months and it has been rock solid.
 
I have a Phaserunner on a Q100H, with a little ATF in it. It's dead silent, no hum, no gear noise, it's almost disconcerting.

I loved the Phaserunner for the control I have over EVERYTHING. From throttle ramp up, phase current, battery current. You can just plug it in and get it working with almost no effort (Aside from sensor order learning), or you can be there for days, tweaking that last performance/behaviour out of it.

If Phaserunner made a bigger model, I'd be using that for my (now resumed) Electron Ninja project. (Kawasaki Ninja 250R converted to fully electric.). I've ordered a Kelly KLS14401-8080I. (144v @ 400A Phase - It's a 30 second peak figure, but on a motorcycle, if you're using 400A for more than 3 seconds, check behind you for the truck you're towing. 400A @ 144v will get you to top speed under 3 seconds easy.) It too is a FOC controller that's fully Bluetooth/Android programmable. Unfortunately, I ordered it the first day of the Chinese New Year holiday period, so it won't even get looked at for another week and a half.
 
I'm using a VESC on a low power belt drive MTB (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=97578&p=1434140#p1434140). I've tried 3 or 4 different motors and voltages ranging from 4S to 9S. And I've also tried switching between FOC mode and the normal "PWM" mode. In all cases I've found the PWM mode to be more efficient by 10-15%. VESC remains cool in all cases, but the motor gets slightly warmer in FOC mode. PWM mode is more noisy, though.

If efficiency is an issue, then re-consider FOC.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

C
What is the max current output for a sine wave controller
Replies
4
Views
249
E-HP
E-HP
F
Which is the better controller between the two?
Replies
11
Views
1,633
E-HP
E-HP
S
  • Question
Cheap motor works fine but controller keeps breaking
Replies
3
Views
644
amberwolf
amberwolf
I
  • Question
LCD8S and KT48SVPRK sine wave controller.
Replies
18
Views
1,666
amberwolf
amberwolf
S
CSC 1500w Rear Hub build
2
Replies
28
Views
3,823
Eastwood
Eastwood
Back
Top