Surly Disc Trucker Build

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RunForTheHills   100 µW

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Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by RunForTheHills » Feb 19 2019 2:53pm

Hi, I have been lurking here for a few days. I have been thinking about getting an electric bike. However, most of the prebuilt e-bikes I looked at don't really appeal to me with the oversized tubing and suspensions. I am new to e-bikes, but I have the tools and I am comfortable working on and building regular bicycles.

I don't intend to ride the bike faster than 20 MPH. I am 5'8", weigh around 170 lbs, and ride on a 52cm road frame (29.5" inseam). I am in my mid 50's and getting slower. I run for exercise and ride for fun. I mostly ride a very short commute to work, but I change jobs a lot (IT contractor) and my commute changes frequently. I love my Surly LHT that I use to commute to work. Maybe I am underestimating the value of a front suspension, but I don't have a problem getting up on the pedals to absorb bumps on my LHT. I ordered a Surly Disc Trucker frame and intend to build it into an e-bike. I am considering the following components for the build. I thought I would post it here and see if anyone has suggestions to improve it. The only thing I have ordered so far is the frame. If it doesn't work out as an e-bike, I have been wanting to build an upright Trucker anyway. The only downside of starting it as an e-bike (other than the cost) is that I have to drill a hole in the bottom bracket for the torque sensor, but I don't think that will compromise the integrity of the frame. I plan to mount the battery to the water bottle bosses (strong enough?) and the controller to the rack.

From Ebikes.ca:

1. Ezee 250RC motor laced into a 26" wheel w/11-34 10 speed cassette (will be 1X10 with a 44 tooth chainring)
2. Phaserunner Controller
3. Cycle Analyst CA3-DPS
4. Handlebar Mounted Auxilliary Potentiometer
5. Sempu Torque Sensor with 115mm Spindle
6. Thumb Throttle
7. Ebrake Cutoff Sensor (Tripwire Push?)
8. GRIN Universal Rear Torque Arm
9. 52V Satiator Charger
10. 3mm and 5mm Stainless Steel washer for spacing hub motor axles (not sure what is needed for 10 speed cassette)
11. Stainless Steel Mounting Plate for Attaching CA to Bicycle Steer Tube
12. Velcro Strechy Sleeve to cover wires and connectors

From EM3EV

1. 52V (14S5P) EM3ev Jumbo Shark 17.0 AH

I am still trying to nail down the rest of the build, but these are some of the other components I am considering:

1. Nitto North Road Bars (My current LHT is a drop bar, but I want to try an upright position. I will probably get an adjustable stem to figure out what I need and then order a fixed stem)
2. Chris King Sotto Voce 1 1/8" NoThreadSet Headset - Silver
3. Nitto S65 (Crystal Fellow) Seatpost
4. Brooks B67 Saddle in Honey
5. Tubus Logo Classic Rack
6. B&M IQ-X headlight (e-bike version or run dynamo hub). It seems like a dynamo hub would have the advantage of working if the battery died.
7. B&M Toplight tail light
8. Shimano XT RD-M786-GS Shadow Direct Mount Rear Derailleur, Silver
9. Shimano SL-M780 XT 10-Speed Shifter
10. VO Grand Cru Fluted Single Crankset (44 Tooth)
11. VO 26" Smooth Fenders, 60mm
12. VO Alloy Chainguard
13. Hydraulic Disc Brakes (haven't decided which yet). I like the look of the TRP G-Spec Quadiem, but I don't like the price and they are way overkill for my application. I would prefer silver colored brakes for this build.

markz   100 GW

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by markz » Feb 19 2019 9:26pm

RunForTheHills wrote:
Feb 19 2019 2:53pm
20 MPH. I am 5'8", weigh around 170 lbs, and ride on a 52cm road frame (29.5" inseam).
mid 50's and getting slower.
I run for exercise and ride for fun. I mostly ride a very short commute to work, but I change jobs a lot (IT contractor) and my commute changes frequently. I love my Surly LHT that I use to commute to work. Maybe I am underestimating the value of a front suspension, but I don't have a problem getting up on the pedals to absorb bumps on my LHT. I ordered a Surly Disc Trucker frame and intend to build it into an e-bike. I am considering the following components for the build.

Surly Disc Trucker looks like the LHT, which to me all look the same, hybrid bicycle, maybe the trucker is more roadie cuz some of the pics have swoop down bars, all depends on how you ride. I prefer a cruiser type bicycle, laid back, feet forward design.

I thought I would post it here and see if anyone has suggestions to improve it. The only thing I have ordered so far is the frame. If it doesn't work out as an e-bike,

The LHT looks like a hybrid, not bad, as a commuter you do want to have front suspension and you are only going 20mph which is 32kph which is a good speed, but if you are going to be riding in traffic you want more speed then that so you can go with the flow of traffic. I would say make your speed goal 25mph or 30mph so you have that extra uuumph ;)

I have been wanting to build an upright Trucker anyway. The only downside of starting it as an e-bike (other than the cost) is that I have to drill a hole in the bottom bracket for the torque sensor, but I don't think that will compromise the integrity of the frame.
Torque Sense, so you want a pedal assist. All I know is that they are expensive, but if you can afford it then buy from www.ebikes.ca so they can treat you right

I plan to mount the battery to the water bottle bosses (strong enough?) and the controller to the rack.
I would not do that, I would buy a triangle bag from EM3EV.
Another thing to keep in mind is your terrain and will you be stopping and going all the time.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/trip-simulator.html
Input Type Google Maps (Bottom Right)

Take a peek, play around, get familiar. Right click to start and end, then move the route to your route.

RunForTheHills   100 µW

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by RunForTheHills » Feb 20 2019 11:51am

markz wrote:
Feb 19 2019 9:26pm
Another thing to keep in mind is your terrain and will you be stopping and going all the time.
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/trip-simulator.html
Input Type Google Maps (Bottom Right)

Take a peek, play around, get familiar. Right click to start and end, then move the route to your route.
Thanks. Part of the problem is that I am not really sure how I will use it in the future. It is a fun project and I am learning a lot. I like working on bikes as much as I like riding them.

My current commute to work is one mile with no hills and two stop signs from an apartment that I am renting for this contract. That will change in a few months. My weekend rides are usually around 15-25 miles and sometimes have a medium sized hill or two. They are maybe 50% MUP and 50% road. The truth is that I enjoy riding my current bike and can easily handle how I currently use the bike. However, I am hoping this bike will encourage me to ride the bike when I would ordinarily take the car or just stay home.

markz   100 GW

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by markz » Feb 20 2019 1:20pm

Do you want much stealth?

Stealth is good, even if its not necessary.
Geared motors make noise, same goes for mid drives because those are geared motors as well. Geared motors have more moving parts, meaning more stuff can fail, like the gears can strip.

However direct drive motors are silent, but they are much larger with a bit more weight and they are much simpler.

You see its all give and take, its all in what you want now and in the future. Lighter is more nimble, easier to carry up stairs, down single track. But for commute or cruising pathways along the river, no need for light. Direct Drive is the way to go!

I would suggest to you to build an ebike with more then you want right now, and for the future because who knows if you will end up in a major metropolitan city with lots of stop and go traffic, or San Franscisco with its hills. Go with a direct drive motor like the Leaf 1500W because its a very solid unit, and get it in whatever stock wheel size you have, 700C, 29/26.

Also consider how you will secure you bicycle, you do not want flashiness, nothing that is glaringly obvious.... like a mid drive. It is easy to hide a rear hub behind some rear pannier bags on the rear rack. Stash the battery in there so you can bring it in with you to the office.

If you are on the move, maybe you will be staying at a place on the 3rd floor with only stairs. So there are many factors to consider.

https://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bik ... inch/c-19/


RunForTheHills wrote:
Feb 20 2019 11:51am
-

RunForTheHills   100 µW

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by RunForTheHills » Feb 20 2019 4:57pm

I like the idea of stealth, but I don't wan't to carry panniers when I am not commuting. When I do commute to the office, I have two full panniers (exercise clothes in one bag and two laptops in the other) so I wouldn't have room for a battery in them. I am good with mounting the battery on the frame. I am also not too worried about weight. No stairs to carry the bike up.

My understanding was that I wouldn't be able to coast with direct drive (unless I use the throttle). I am going to install a thumb throttle, but I was hoping to mostly use it with the torque sensor and I wanted a natural feel. The bike will have 26" wheels. I am thinking 26X2.0. My current LHT has 26X1.75 because that is what came on it, but I can go fatter on the frame even with fenders. The Ezee motor will handle 1000 watts. I am sure it could be pushed past that, but the maximum allowed here in California is 750 watts. I am not sure that there is any enforcement though. I plan to stay within the speed limit on the bike paths.

For security with my current LHT I ended up putting Pitlocks on the wheels, lights, headset, and seat. That makes it convenient to lock it up with one U-lock when I run into the store. I hadn't thought about it, but I should probably order a set that is keyed the same for the new bike. I can take the bike inside the building at the office, so I never leave it outside unattended for more than an hour or so. Can the EM3EV battery be locked to the frame? It appears that some batteries can, but I don't see that listed as a feature on the EM3EV website.

Bigwheel   100 W

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by Bigwheel » Feb 24 2019 4:27pm

I personally would go with the Bafang G310 as I know it is the preferred motor at Grin these days. A bit more power which you may or may not use but good to have aboard.

I am curious about this line item:

11. Stainless Steel Mounting Plate for Attaching CA to Bicycle Steer Tube

I don't see it listed on their site? But if it is what I think it is you will like it.

Also "My understanding was that I wouldn't be able to coast with direct drive"

I have 9c and All-Axle hub motors from Grin and both coast just fine without any power on at all with no noticeable drag on level ground. To be honest this wasn't the case with my first two DD hub motors, an early eBay chinese one and a Magic Pie, but I run front hubs and really wanted the benefits of a DD motor, especially the regen as a drag brake and overall simplicity. I can't be sure but I feel that the use of Statorade might be the equalizing factor.

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by markz » Feb 24 2019 9:34pm

Whatever the factors are in the drag of a direct drive motor without any power applied to it, it all depends on what you want. With the more powerful motors the drag is noticeable, in the 3kw mxus it can be a drag(bummer) but its only for when I run out of juice. If one wants no drag then a geared motor is the way to go. The 9C has way less drag then the 3kw, because of whatever them factors are in the drag. It is a mission of mine to find out, I do remember Justin_le stating such facts.


Bigwheel wrote:
Feb 24 2019 4:27pm
Also "My understanding was that I wouldn't be able to coast with direct drive"

I have 9c and All-Axle hub motors from Grin and both coast just fine without any power on at all with no noticeable drag on level ground. To be honest this wasn't the case with my first two DD hub motors, an early eBay chinese one and a Magic Pie, but I run front hubs and really wanted the benefits of a DD motor, especially the regen as a drag brake and overall simplicity. I can't be sure but I feel that the use of Statorade might be the equalizing factor.

markz   100 GW

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by markz » Feb 24 2019 9:38pm

Only 5 pages for the term "drag" with Justin_le

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... g#p1309536
On the balance of all this I'd say 6mL is still the sweet spot for Statorade fill on a nine continent motor for most people, going to 10mL if you don't mind some extra motor drag. But injecting much more than 10mL in this motor not only doesn't improve anything, it actually makes things a bit worse, for reasons that aren't obvious to me. You'll not only have the extra drag, but you'll have a less cooling effect than if you'd stayed in the ~10mL realm.

A bit better search results for "Direct drive drag" with Justin_le
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/searc ... mit=Search

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... g#p1445084
On the subject at hand of the BionX D motor, the core drag at 250 rpm (typical ebike speed) is 0.68 Nm, of which 0.45 Nm comes from hystersis of the iron (not affected by lamination thickness) and ~0.23 Nm comes from eddie currents. If they went with 0.27 instead of 0.35mm, the expected reduction in drag would be 40% of the 0.23Nm, or a total of 0.09 Nm less drag. That's a 13% total reduction in drag, not nothing, but it's not something anyone would readily notice either.

They could then yes increase the air gap field strength so that the drag was back up to the 0.68 Nm and had a slightly more powerful motor, but not a vastly more powerful motor!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... g#p1255094
With direct drive hub motors in the ~300 rpm range I normally see eddie losses are about 25-35% of the total core losses. And with geared motors with their much higher commutation frequencies, the motor drag roughly doubles from very low speeds to the typical cruising speed. Like this here (xofo equivalent to a Bafang CST), going from 1Nm of drag at a standstill to 2Nm at the ~250rpm design speed:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... g#p1120105
Efficiency, just good to know.
Most geared motor manufacturers specify around 80%-82% peak efficiency, which is exactly what I measure on the dyno, and direct-drive motors are typically advertised as 84-86% efficiency, which is again pretty much exactly what an independant dyno test what will show.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... g#p1075569
There are a lot of reasons why direct drive hub motors are exceedingly popular and desirable, and will continue to be so even if the efficiency at high loads encountered on steep hills etc. isn't all that great. And for people using those systems, I want to produce a tool that as accurately as possible will predict the usable working envelope under any kind of terrain and load situation.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... ag#p962343
while a direct drive system will have motor core loss during the entire trip regardless of how much the motor is being used. My point was that the amount of energy you get back into the pack from regen is typically more than the energy you need to overcome the core losses for the entire trip. So that in principle, you can have a motor controller that powers the direct drive hub with just enough watts to to make it have zero drag, and the extra watt-hours consumed by doing this is generally less than watt-hours you recoup back into the battery via using regen whenever you come to a stop.
just that the oft used argument against regen enabled systems is that you waste a ton of energy overcoming motor drag and that makes them less efficient than freewheeling rigs. This is psychologically true for a lot of people, but it doesn't really stand up to energy scrutiny.
In the original analysis I was using 0.5 N-m as the average drag torque from core losses in the motor, but more typically the larger DD motors used these days like the Crysatlyte 'H' series are about 1Nm of drag, and the results are less optimistic in this scenario with the regen just breaking even over the core losses.
As for the amount of energy recovered during riding with regen, we have 3 staff here on regen equipped ebikes and the recovery rate seems to hover pretty steady at about 0.7-1 Wh-km returned to the pack. So when we do trips that really milk regen for like a 20% regen rate, it's usually while drawing only 5Wh/km for consumption, and the net return is ~20% of 5Wh/km = 1 Wh/km. While higher power usage trips that see lower 4-5% regen rate are usually consuming on the order of 15-20 wh/km, which results in a similar 0.75-1 wh/km for recovered energy.

At that rate, the motor drag needs to put an average drag on the bike of about 3 newtons or less in order for it to be fully offset by the regen capture.

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by markz » Feb 24 2019 9:47pm

So there you have it, a little tangent to the weekend is always fun.
Original thought was 0.5Nm, now about 1Nm for Direct Drive, but you can give it just a hair on the throttle and overcome that drag, and that regen is good for not only braking and saving your pads, but also 1Wh/km back into the pack.

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by Hwy89 » Feb 25 2019 1:50am

Marks said "geared motors make noise" WRONG! Try one of the Q motors from BMSBattery.com along with their torque simulator sine wave controller. Absolutely silent, all you hear is the tires on the road.

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by dogman dan » Feb 25 2019 7:34am

my experience with geared motors has been that initially they are pretty quiet, and especially so at low speeds. But at full gallop, 20 mph on up, they generally get louder than DD motors. But not that loud. It does get louder though, when you heat them up, and the gear grease slings off the gears and onto the case. Open up, spread the grease again, and fixed. But still, something to do every fall.

DD on the other hand, often very quiet, even at 30 mph. If you need enough stealth to wear panniers, then a geared noise would give you away. Its very easy to tickle the throttle just enough to eliminate the drag, or if using pas, ghost pedal just a bit.

I'm NOT saying don't go with a typical 500w rated geared motor, on 48v (1000w). The coasting is nice, and the motor is lighter. I'm saying the noise of the geared motor is no reason not to get one, and the drag of the DD is no reason not to get one. Geared motors, because of the gear advantage, run more efficient if you stop over and over in the city. So if you ride in a real city, lean to the geared. But if you run fast enough for geared to get noticeably noisy, and believe me, 25 mph cruise is nice, then lean to the DD.


I would only run DD for regen, if you are running DD in the big city, AND going 30 mph plus. Then the energy back and break wear is worth it. If running 20 mph, your pads will last plenty long enough. And you'd still be most efficient, with the geared. Getting some back on the stop is still not equaling what the start costs you, with a fast wind dd that stops every damn block.

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by Bigwheel » Feb 25 2019 12:39pm

markz wrote:
Feb 24 2019 9:47pm
So there you have it, a little tangent to the weekend is always fun.
Original thought was 0.5Nm, now about 1Nm for Direct Drive, but you can give it just a hair on the throttle and overcome that drag, and that regen is good for not only braking and saving your pads, but also 1Wh/km back into the pack.
Thanks for the lengthy treatise but doesn't follow my experience with either motor I use currently. I have taken the battery off both bikes and ridden for miles without any noticeable drag from the motor, the only effect is the weight of the system when things start to go upwards but even that is still not that bad. One time in particular I used my 9c bike to do a closed to vehicle traffic road climb in the Olympic Mtns. to get to a remote hot springs and my friend only had his mtb so I left the battery in the car and had no problem staying in front of him all the way up and in. So I still attribute it somewhat to the Statorade but will talk to Justin about it next time I am up there in a few weeks.

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by RunForTheHills » Mar 03 2019 1:50pm

Wow, I missed all these replies. I have been ordering parts for the bike, but I haven't ordered the electric conversion kit yet. It is a frame up build, so I have to order all the regular bike components. I am changing jobs in a week, so this project will likely get delayed for a month or so while I settle into a new routine. My new office will be about 28 miles away by bicycle, but multi-mode by train and bike (Caltrain) is an option also. I am just going to drive the car for the first week or two.

This is my first electric bicycle, so I am not sure what speeds I will feel comfortable with yet. My bike will not have a front suspension and I don't normally like going faster than 25 MPH even on downhills with my non-electric bicycle. I don't think I will be riding at 30 MPH and anticipate staying below 20. Much of my riding will be on bike paths. I would like the ability to get up medium grade hills without overheating the motor, but I don't have any particular hills in mind. I really don't like the look of mid-drive motors like the Bafang. I won't be riding the bike in a dense city environment like San Francisco or New York City very often if at all. I still think the geared motor would work best for me, but I am open to researching the DD option more.

I didn't know the Bafang G310 was the preferred hub motor from Grin. When I compare the G310 to the Ezee 250 on the simulator, the G310 seems to overheat much quicker than the Ezee motor on a grade, while the range and speed seem to be about the same. The MAC 10 motor also seems to overheat quicker on a grade. Perhaps the simulator is not the best way to compare motors though. It doesn't tell you much about build quality and reliability.

MTA: I just went back and re-ran the comparison between the MAC 10T and the Ezee 250 and the performance is virtually identical now. The MAC 10T is a little faster and overheats just a little bit faster on a hill. I ran it a couple of weeks ago and the MAC 10T showed it would overheat much quicker on a 10% grade. It still does, but only by a couple of minutes. I am not sure if the simulator changed or I entered the parameters differently last time. So the MAC 10T could be a good choice.
Last edited by RunForTheHills on Mar 03 2019 2:08pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by RunForTheHills » Mar 03 2019 1:55pm

Bigwheel wrote:
Feb 24 2019 4:27pm

11. Stainless Steel Mounting Plate for Attaching CA to Bicycle Steer Tube

I don't see it listed on their site? But if it is what I think it is you will like it.
It is just a mounting bracket for the CA3.

https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... acket.html

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by Bigwheel » Mar 03 2019 4:46pm

RunForTheHills wrote:
Mar 03 2019 1:55pm
Bigwheel wrote:
Feb 24 2019 4:27pm

11. Stainless Steel Mounting Plate for Attaching CA to Bicycle Steer Tube

I don't see it listed on their site? But if it is what I think it is you will like it.
It is just a mounting bracket for the CA3.

https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... acket.html
I missed seeing that on there thanks for the link. I use a similar type but home made bracket that uses the steerer tube but positions the CA off to either side and below the height of the handlebars which I find completely keeps it out of harms way in the event you want to turn the bike upside down yet still visible and easy to operate the buttons.
unnamed.jpg

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by RunForTheHills » Mar 03 2019 11:07pm

Bigwheel wrote:
Mar 03 2019 4:46pm
I missed seeing that on there thanks for the link. I use a similar type but home made bracket that uses the steerer tube but positions the CA off to either side and below the height of the handlebars which I find completely keeps it out of harms way in the event you want to turn the bike upside down yet still visible and easy to operate the buttons.

[/quote]

That's an interesting idea. This build I am going to use upright handlebars that have some rise. I think it will protect the display if I have to turn the bike upside down.

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Re: Surly Disc Trucker Build

Post by Bigwheel » Mar 03 2019 11:20pm

RunForTheHills wrote:
Mar 03 2019 11:07pm
Bigwheel wrote:
Mar 03 2019 4:46pm
I missed seeing that on there thanks for the link. I use a similar type but home made bracket that uses the steerer tube but positions the CA off to either side and below the height of the handlebars which I find completely keeps it out of harms way in the event you want to turn the bike upside down yet still visible and easy to operate the buttons.
That's an interesting idea. This build I am going to use upright handlebars that have some rise. I think it will protect the display if I have to turn the bike upside down.
[/quote]

Actually on that bike it doesn't really make a difference because the brake hoods are the first to hit the ground anyway. I just like having clean bars and a stealthy display. Although I did make one for my TSDZ2 display which does work as intended, this is a pic of my prototype made out of some UHMW but I made the ones I used out of aluminum.
unnamed.jpg
unnamed.jpg (99.05 KiB) Viewed 152 times

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