Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Electric Motors and Controllers

Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby e-vektor » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:12 pm

Harold in CR wrote:In another thread, tomdb gave me a rough price of materials to build a Honda IMA inverter. These e-assist motors can be had for $100.00 and up, and the price est. was $400.00 or so. Figure $1000.00 for all materials and motor and this MIGHT make a reasonable priced moto conversion possible.

I would be in for trying to build an inverter with some assistance along the way. If e-vector would like to try, that might get a couple more involved, and be a very educational thread for future builders. I'm reasonably certain that the Lebowski chip works with tomdb's inverters. There is a guy (whereswally) that has boards for sale and the Lebowski chip comes programmed, and the newest version can be programmed without sending back. Both can be found on endless-sphere website. I don't know prices yet. Still watching to see if anyone else wants in and maybe order several boards and chips as a group thing. Mine would be sent to USA, Florida.

The motor I have now is a 6 phase brushless and needs 2 controllers, so, added costs to use this motor and, these 6 phase motors are not cheap like the e-assist motor.


What is Lebowski chip? PM or ACIM focused? is firmware closed or open?

actually I would like to start a DIY open source project for ACIM motor if my spare time (which is not much) allows it.

6-phase motor: is there any way to combine the coils to have more poles but only 3-phase? It's first time I've heard about them. I've heard about 4-phase...
My initial interests were:
* voltages under 200V, (current 500 Amp or more)
* MOSFET (because they are very compact and parallel-capable)
* ACIM motors,
* sensored for induction motor (as there is not an easy way to read BEMF) (for PM motors I think the goal should be sensorless)
but if there are several people involved maybe each one can handle some variant of the project, I am not sure if this could be handled

I also was reading about the VESC project for e-bikes and small motors, but I didn't get response from the author when I ask for a PCB
For this reason, I think that for all these projects an important topic is managing some small production (bare PCBs or partially assembled PCBs), as at least in my case, when I see a project like the VESC I would prefer to have it in my hand as soon as possible, and I think other people can also have problems with soldering, firmware loading, etc

Regarding using IMA or other controllers, it seems very interesting, but it causes me some concerns about if I will be able to understand all parts, or modify anything, or reprogram the firmware. Do you have the original firmware or how do you manage to load PM or ACIM firmware? Keep in mind that all of this is new for me, it seems too much info initially.
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Tomdb » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:37 pm

The lebowski chip is closed firmware and only magnet motors.

Here is a link to the Huebner controller, is all open source.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/another-homebrew-ac-controller-45909.html
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby e-vektor » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:24 am

it is a huge topic. It will take a time to read it...
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Harold in CR » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:47 am

Unfortunately, there are very few home brew inverter builds. Etischer built one a few years back. tomdb has recently done 2.
Most home brews are for permanent magnet motors. That's why I was hoping to change your motor to PM.

The huebner inverter has been built by a few different people. You can find these toward the last few pages of the huebner thread. jackbauer, and arber333 and a couple more can be found in that thread.

The 6 phase motor I have is actually 2 sets of 3 phase windings slightly out of sync, so that actually makes 2 motors in 1 housing. Still a perm magnet motor though. The trend in the automotive industry oem is mostly to PMAC motors. Unfortunately, they are a bit large for motorcycle builds.
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby e-vektor » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:45 am

Harold in CR wrote:. The trend in the automotive industry oem is mostly to PMAC motors. Unfortunately, they are a bit large for motorcycle builds.


then why Tesla motors does only use ACIM motors? I was convinced that they were better somehow than PM motors. Maybe it is only a matter of price, and not having a depencency on strategical raw materials
Anyway when you look for high power motors (200 HP+) I think it is more common to use induction. But by now I don't think that is the goal for the e-motorcycle project

For PMs, apart of Mars motors, there are not much cheap alternatives, aren't they?
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Harold in CR » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:34 am

I don't like the word cheap when discussing quality durable items. Inexpensive or reasonable is much better sounding. You are correct. There is not a lot of inexpensive motorcycle motors. Motenergy, Agni, and used various types are all there are.
QS motors are also in this category and they now have an inrunner which is the center part spins instead of the outer part. Remember all motors cab be over voltaged up to a point. What voltage will your battery have ?

PM motors give a quicker take off low speed. There are chinese pancake motors, but, who knows the long term quality ? Everything is over rated. Compact motors for conversions will cost $800.00 and up. Then, powerful controllers are $300.00 and up, if you want programmable.

The only way to get semi inexpensive is, look for used ride on scooter motos with bad batteries or even wrecked. If the wheel is bent, so what. Just try to determine if the motor is not damaged. You don't need the wheel. I'm not sure where you live, so, it's difficult to say where to look. You have to search for these as new, then, try to find used. They will be hubmotors, and, sometimes the wheel unbolts. Others will be molded onto the motor and can be cut off and balanced. This is what I have, but they are not readily available. Also, it requires 2 controllers at $100.00 each and up, according to what you want for performance and voltage. Once you get above 100V and 80-90 amps, the prices go up quickly.

Look in the forum for the terms mid monster and hub monster to see what I am talking about. Also, search for 6 phase motors. These you can make work in normal moto conversions. The race boys use expensive stuff so it lasts. I can't afford their equipment.
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby e-vektor » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:09 pm

motor update:
today I received the motor with the delta modification. I repeated the Curtis "auto-tune" process again and got 3.3% slip gain (instead of previous 9%)
I did some quick tests and I could read 15.2 HP at 55V and 320A (these lead batteries have a big voltage drop during big load)
I measured 70% efficiency at full load , which is a good value for full load condition (and only 55V).
I have another bank of batteries, these are LIPO, but they are not ready yet as I don't have a BMS yet to be able to charge them after tests.

I think if voltage had been 75V power should be close to 20HP, and for 150V is should be close to 40 HP.

For the efficiency measurements, I did some tests at 2000 RPM and 40% current, and I got a 79% efficiency. I haven't had time yet to do a more exhaustive map. And also the circuit for resolver-encoder conversion has some problems over 2200 rpm.

At this moment I have two paths:
* efficiency: I have to fix the resolver converter to be able to drive the motor up to 4000 rpm. I think I should find a 85% eff value somewhere at high speed area
* Power: as my Curtis controller is rated 80V 350A (350A in delta is equivalent to 200A in WYE/start), it cannot deliver full current capacity of motor. The easy alternative is buying a 150V Curtis controller, but it is more than 2600 eur, I am not sure it worths the 40HP I will get....
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby e-vektor » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:26 pm

Harold in CR wrote:I don't like the word cheap when discussing quality durable items. Inexpensive or reasonable is much better sounding. You are correct. There is not a lot of inexpensive motorcycle motors. Motenergy, Agni, and used various types are all there are.
QS motors are also in this category and they now have an inrunner which is the center part spins instead of the outer part. Remember all motors cab be over voltaged up to a point. What voltage will your battery have ?

PM motors give a quicker take off low speed. There are chinese pancake motors, but, who knows the long term quality ? Everything is over rated. Compact motors for conversions will cost $800.00 and up. Then, powerful controllers are $300.00 and up, if you want programmable.

The only way to get semi inexpensive is, look for used ride on scooter motos with bad batteries or even wrecked. If the wheel is bent, so what. Just try to determine if the motor is not damaged. You don't need the wheel. I'm not sure where you live, so, it's difficult to say where to look. You have to search for these as new, then, try to find used. They will be hubmotors, and, sometimes the wheel unbolts. Others will be molded onto the motor and can be cut off and balanced. This is what I have, but they are not readily available. Also, it requires 2 controllers at $100.00 each and up, according to what you want for performance and voltage. Once you get above 100V and 80-90 amps, the prices go up quickly.

Look in the forum for the terms mid monster and hub monster to see what I am talking about. Also, search for 6 phase motors. These you can make work in normal moto conversions. The race boys use expensive stuff so it lasts. I can't afford their equipment.


I don't know what happens when cheap PM motor get old, but for induction it should not be much difference, unless it phisically breaks.
My comment was focused on Motenergy motors, but I think the maximum is about 40 HP, it is difficult to get something over 60 or 80 HP in the 1000 eur to 2000 eur range.

One question, when you talk about controllers for PM, (I am not familiar with them), are they normally sensored or sensorless? and are they vector or V/F?

These hub motors seem good for e-bike or small motorcycle, but for this project I should go up to 60 HP or more, although I will not reach it with current configuration...
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Harold in CR » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:24 pm

PM motors could pretty much only lose some magnetism from repeatedly running very hot and bearings might get worn enough to need replacing. Induction has rotor windings, is the only difference between the two. You have to supply voltage/current to rotor windings. Guys racing PM motors get into the 200 HP range, but, they are costly as you said. Controllers for PM motors are both sensored and sensorless. I can't get into the vector/VF drive controllers. I am at my limit to do much more discussion, without stating things I'm not sure about. This is why I hope someone else gets into this. What I am building will be heavy and I live in the hills, so, more HP to me makes more sense and this motor is small enough to use in motos. I also can not afford expensive controllers.
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Punx0r » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:23 am

My basic understanding: PMDC has a higher torque density than AC-induction, but are more expensive (due to the rare-earth magnets). AC-induction also doesn't scale down well to small (ebike) sizes.
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby e-vektor » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:33 pm

Punx0r wrote:My basic understanding: PMDC has a higher torque density than AC-induction, but are more expensive (due to the rare-earth magnets). AC-induction also doesn't scale down well to small (ebike) sizes.


ok, so for continuous high torque application (as racing) better PM motor, and for road application (light torque most time, and short high torque peaks)
ACIM motor can be ok (like with Tesla cars)

Anyway at this point I have to decide if going to a commercial inverter like Curtis 1238 144V 550A for only 40 HP, or going further to an IGBT homemade solution and work at 300V (which has other problems related with battery), to try to get 80 HP or so...
The good think about IGBT solution is that probably it will be more people interested on using it, specially for car applications
(I still have to read some posts of the topic you recommended)
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Harold in CR » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:55 pm

Be sure to stay in touch on this thread. I'm very interested, especially if you go the DIY inverter route.
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby e-vektor » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:09 pm

Harold in CR wrote:Be sure to stay in touch on this thread. I'm very interested, especially if you go the DIY inverter route.


sure

BTW: I've found AC series induction motor (AC20 and higher) as alternative to my current motor. For 80HP application motor + Curtis cost about $5000, still high.
can they be found alone?
AC series work in the common voltage range from 36 to 144, which makes more feasible an inverter based on MOSFETs, smaller, cheaper and more efficient than IGBTs (I think so)
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby e-vektor » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:58 pm

news after a while:

* I have finished the customized resolver to encoder circuit that allows me to reach 4000 rpm (old circuit started to fail at 2300 rpm)
* I have done a test measurement from 1000 rpm to 3000 rpm and I got some values around 86% efficiency (higher values are not reliable due to oscillations in speed control). This is a very good news!
* I've got about 20.5 HP without considering chain losses (I cannot measure them with accuracy) at 54V. This makes me think that I could have 28 HP at 75V (with the LIPO batteries)

Test has been performed under the following conditions:
* lead batteries (fall to 54V during max load),
* 350A (this Curtis model is limited to 350A)
* coolant in the motor, but no water pump (test is 15 seconds)

next steps:
* test LIPO batteries (combination of series and parallel batteries)
* I've found an used 550A curtis (same voltage), it could provide +50% torque under the nominal speed (2400 rpm)
* with the LIPO and 550A curtis I could be close to 35 or 36 HP

Image
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Harold in CR » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:53 pm

Well done. 8) I might be in Florida end of April and will buy an e-assist altermotor. Have one spotted for $100.00. Another needs some haggling over. :roll: :lol:

Might even get a Honda IMA and hope I can learn enough to convert one. Maybe Paul can offer some additional info on his controllers. He has devised a board that lets you go from DC to AC motor with little hassle. Might be worth a shot with that.

I'm limited to 111v nom until further R&D. :roll: :)
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Punx0r » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:19 pm

That's pretty awesome :)
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Harold in CR » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:57 pm

e-vector, if it's not too much trouble, could you post the physical dimensions (length and girth ). Thanks.
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby e-vektor » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:28 pm

Harold in CR wrote:Well done. 8) I might be in Florida end of April and will buy an e-assist altermotor. Have one spotted for $100.00. Another needs some haggling over. :roll: :lol:

Might even get a Honda IMA and hope I can learn enough to convert one. Maybe Paul can offer some additional info on his controllers. He has devised a board that lets you go from DC to AC motor with little hassle. Might be worth a shot with that.

I'm limited to 111v nom until further R&D. :roll: :)


111V is good, about 25% or 30% more than with the 80V Curtis controller
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby e-vektor » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:29 pm

Harold in CR wrote:e-vector, if it's not too much trouble, could you post the physical dimensions (length and girth ). Thanks.


It has very similar size to Motenergy motors, even a bit shorter (depth). Tomorrow I take the measures
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby fechter » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:13 pm

I'd be interested in seeing what the rotor looks like.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Harold in CR » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:55 am

Rotor is typical aluminum induction type. These are switched reluctance motors. Youtube BAS e-assist Weber Auto
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Punx0r » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:30 am

There's a photo at the top of this thread linked near the top of this thread: http://elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=2676
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby fechter » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:30 pm

Thanks for the link. Gives me a much better idea.

I've seen some pretty cheap VFD inverters made for line voltage. I wonder if it would be possible to modify one for higher current/lower voltage. It might make the whole setup pretty affordable.
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby Harold in CR » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:33 pm

My mistake. These are induction motors.
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Re: Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

Postby e-vektor » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:00 pm

Image
Punx0r wrote:There's a photo at the top of this thread linked near the top of this thread: http://elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=2676
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