Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

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MJSfoto1956   10 kW

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Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Jul 20 2019 10:11am

Being the curious type, I thought I'd take a peak at what the insides of my new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor looked like. Here's what I found. Enjoy!
IMG_8521 (1).jpg
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IMG_8523 (2).1280.jpg
IMG_8523 (2).1280.jpg (482.13 KiB) Viewed 1046 times

Note: if there is something you want me to measure or photograph while this puppy is open, let me know.

Michael
Last edited by MJSfoto1956 on Jul 25 2019 3:39pm, edited 1 time in total.
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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jul 20 2019 11:12am

how much was that bad boy and what's the dropout spacing and axle flats diameter.. would make a nice supermoto rear wheel for pit bikes:) ..
some ride & sk8 videos:
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i have nothing for sale.. :)

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MJSfoto1956   10 kW

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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Jul 20 2019 11:47am

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jul 20 2019 11:12am
how much was that bad boy and what's the dropout spacing and axle flats diameter.. would make a nice supermoto rear wheel for pit bikes:) ..
  • 200mm dropout
  • 14mm axle flats
  • $737US shipped to Boston Massachusetts USA
Note: they also offer a (much more expensive) 70h 14000W 13" motor, but requires 230mm dropouts.
Last edited by MJSfoto1956 on Jul 22 2019 7:38am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by larsb » Jul 20 2019 1:16pm

EDIT: incorrect
Last edited by larsb on Jul 25 2019 4:56am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Jul 20 2019 2:35pm

Honestly, the #1 reason I purchased the 8000W V4 over the 8000W V3 was for the bigger phase wires and the unique way they enter/exit the motor. None of that "through the axle" crap. I hope all hub motors going forward will be like this. And yes, I was willing to pay extra for that.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by larsb » Jul 20 2019 3:30pm

I'm sure it's a good motor, my question was rhethorical on how it can be competitive built like that. Long time since i read motor basics so i don't have any answers to this one.

If copper losses wasn't dominant at high power then i'd understand it.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by kiwifiat » Jul 20 2019 9:19pm

larsb wrote:
Jul 20 2019 1:16pm
All that extra copper length and resistance.
It's got distributed winding, how can it be worth it? In theory there's less harmonics and eddy losses, higher winding factor but it must be possible to improve a lot with a concentrated winding..
It does have concentrated wingings, maybe take a closer look. What you are seeing are the interconnects between each set on concentrated windings and the interconnects are obfusicating what is really going on with the winding pattern.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by larsb » Jul 21 2019 1:11am

Ah, you're correct. The number of parallell wires confused me. So it will be the opposite, it's showing low resistance potential :wink: and the turn count is low.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Jul 21 2019 12:13pm

According to my QS salesman, the V4 motors are slower on takeoff but faster in top speed than the V3 motors (all other things being equal). Here is a chart I made from one of their few published comparisons of V3 vs. V4. Take it with a grain of salt please -- nothing scientific here at all.
Comparison of QS V3 vs. V4.1280.jpg
Comparison of QS V3 vs. V4.1280.jpg (354.19 KiB) Viewed 1310 times
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by neptronix » Jul 21 2019 12:49pm

I like the lower pole count of this motor. It will make for less iron losses. And a small wheel will like it very much.
Indeed, you're gonna lose some torque from a stall, but you gain more later.

The way they've wound the motor is still crazy. Emphasis is on peak power, not efficiency. There's still a bit too much copper fill to make for tightly optimizing the windings to reduce end turn losses, etc.

I imagine that this is still a net improvement in efficiency versus the V3 tho.

Thanks for showing us ^_^
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by larsb » Jul 21 2019 4:53pm

MJSfoto1956 wrote:
Jul 21 2019 12:13pm
According to my QS salesman, the V4 motors are slower on takeoff but faster in top speed than the V3 motors (all other things being equal). Here is a chart I made from one of their few published comparisons of V3 vs. V4. Take it with a grain of salt please -- nothing scientific here at all.
I don't understand. Why do you post this? Is there a dyno plot? If so, then please post the original. This chart smells like a chinese sellers sales talk and doesn't help anyone if it's not corresponding to a real motor.

What would be the problem that needs to be solved by soft startup? And how do you get a faster motor with same kV?

It's not correct.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Jul 21 2019 5:12pm

larsb wrote:
Jul 21 2019 4:53pm
I don't understand. Why do you post this? Is there a dyno plot? If so, then please post the original. This chart smells like a chinese sellers sales talk and doesn't help anyone if it's not corresponding to a real motor.

What would be the problem that needs to be solved by soft startup? And how do you get a faster motor with same kV?

It's not correct.
Calm down dude. This is my interpretation of Chinese marketing. Nothing more. If you are looking for pure objectivity, you will be sorely disappointed (although my photos don’t lie). One should take everything from China with a “grain of salt” — do you understand what that idiom means?
Last edited by MJSfoto1956 on Jul 21 2019 6:26pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by sn0wchyld » Jul 21 2019 5:37pm

dimensions and weight? cant find the V4 on their site...

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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by flat tire » Jul 21 2019 5:54pm

It's true. That plot is worthless.

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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Jul 21 2019 6:25pm

flat tire wrote:
Jul 21 2019 5:54pm
It's true. That plot is worthless.
Except that it is (well noted multiple times) as being anecdotal.
In spite of this, it has been verified by me in real world testing -- I have actually driven this motor, y'all have not.
So you calling me a liar now? :P

M
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Jul 21 2019 6:28pm

sn0wchyld wrote:
Jul 21 2019 5:37pm
dimensions and weight? cant find the V4 on their site...
Really? One quick Google search and this shows up as the first link: https://www.qsmotor.com/product/13-inch-12kw-motor/

Note: the 12kW V4 motor has different dimensions than the 8kW V4 motor (which I have). Or put another way: the 8000W V4 motor has the same exact external dimensions as the 8000W V3 motor.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by larsb » Jul 21 2019 6:42pm

So the search doesn't actually show the correct motor?

And you felt the difference between v3 and v4 in your butt, it drew the diagram? Do you have the v3 on the same bike??

And how does the motor go 18% faster with same kV and all else the same?

"Here is a chart I made from one of their few published comparisons of V3 vs. V4"

And

"This is my interpretation of Chinese marketing"

It's nonsense. Why do you post it?
Last edited by larsb on Jul 21 2019 6:50pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by flat tire » Jul 21 2019 6:46pm

MJSfoto1956 wrote:
Jul 21 2019 6:25pm
So you calling me a liar now? :P
If you're saying the chart is legit, maybe.

Really, I don't doubt you that on your setup you THINK the v4 has more top end and lower bottom end. But you should collect data. Human senses, memory, etc, are inferior to empirically measured stuff and wouldn't you know it, we have things called dynamometers (or, shunts and accelerometers) which make it trivial to put together USEFUL plots. Maybe the shape of those curves is real but then why would they put such stupidly useless axes? And at least SOME info on test conditions!

Finally, humans are notorious for mistakes and brain-error so you wouldn't need to be lying to think a bogus chart is legit and present it as such. You could just be misunderstanding, confused, mistaken, misremembering, etc.

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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Jul 21 2019 7:06pm

larsb wrote:
Jul 21 2019 6:42pm
So the search doesn't actually show the correct motor?
Oh Lars, Lars, Lars. Did you actually read the page? In detail? They mention different formats for the V4. Mine happens to be one of those. You can send them email inquiry if you feel so inclined. That is what I did, and I ended up buying one.
larsb wrote:
Jul 21 2019 6:42pm
And how does the motor go 18% faster with same kV and all else the same?
Why not ask them, not me? I'm not advertising them. I'm just forwarding information that to date nobody else seems to have. Maybe it will help someone else? Maybe my butt is made of gold? Maybe you just like to troll people you disagree with? Who knows?
larsb wrote:
Jul 21 2019 6:42pm
Why do you post it?
Um, because this is my thread. I get to post anything I want. If you don't like it start your own thread (perhaps entitled "QSmotor V4 -- do not buy!!!!"). Otherwise, you are starting to sound and act like a troll on my thread! :)

M
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by neptronix » Jul 22 2019 12:58am

:roll: :evil:
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by neptronix » Jul 22 2019 1:02am

..so anyway, i'm apt to believe the claim of torque/efficiency curves changing with a change in the number of poles. It does make a difference in terms of eddy currents.

I imagine if there's any speed boost, it's from less magnetic drag at the higher RPMs mostly.

It would be nice if we had a dyno graph but it makes sense to me.
The marketing picture says 'similar kv', so that may make up a good % of the difference in speed ;)
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by larsb » Jul 22 2019 2:13am

Different kV would make it a different winding not really connected to v3 vs v4 difference. It would give a chart like that though.

I read mjsfoto drew the chart, it was done without any backing data. Fair enough but the format (to me) indicates some facts behind it.
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Jul 22 2019 7:59am

So we can put this to bed, here is QSmotor's unscientific, fluffy, marketing page comparing V3 to V4. Honestly not much there, but it is what it is. It is from this page that I copied their diagram which I then "simplified" based on my own experience with the motor.

http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/article_read_848.html

Michael

P.S. they also offer 17" rims in 70h V4 configuration
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by larsb » Jul 22 2019 9:20am

Now there's some meat on the bone. Seems like they do the same power within 20-50w on the dyno

V4 is measured 0.4% less efficient if the dyno plots are what they seem to be. I cannot get the foogle translate app working since my phone is too old now.. Maybe someone can beat me too it?
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Re: Inside look at new 50h QSmotor V4 8000W 13" hub motor

Post by neptronix » Jul 22 2019 11:13am

larsb wrote:
Jul 22 2019 2:13am
I read mjsfoto drew the chart, it was done without any backing data. Fair enough but the format (to me) indicates some facts behind it.
You think he's a shill for QS motor? :mrgreen:
Don't be so quick to assume..

Anyway, with the more detailed info, QS shows a tiny increase in efficiency.. i think they might have not dyno'd it to show the benefits, or while they made one positive change for scooter wheels, they went backwards in one area of the stator design.

They only spun it up to 1000rpm. In a 13 inch wheel, there is probably more of a difference due to the lower pole count, as you spin to 1500rpm and beyond.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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