KBL96251 trouble (24" 2x Motor bike build)

Electric Motors and Controllers
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Ronin   1 mW

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KBL96251 trouble (24" 2x Motor bike build)

Post by Ronin » Jan 10 2021 10:00am

Hi, I try to build an drag bike, and just got my new Kelly KBL96251 controller and try to set it up. I have my bike upside down in my hall with free wheels in the air. The problem is when I let go of throttle, the motor brakes. If I try to use throttle while wheel is spinning, it just makes bad sound and stops. I get error code 3-2, internal reset. I have 96V battery which is capable of 8kw, and in the controller setup program I disabled the regeneration, but there is no difference even if enabled or disabled. Just like it is enabled anyhow the setting is. I also sent a mail to kelly about this, awaiting an answer. I dont want regen at all. My other controllers (5000w) works like a charm, I can spin the wheel up to 240km/h and let go of throttle, wait to wheel is half speed and throttle up without braking motor. This is not possible anyhow i configure the settings. Any tip?
Last edited by Ronin on Jan 17 2021 7:38am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by amberwolf » Jan 10 2021 9:59pm

If there is a function called something like "slip regen" or "slip throttle", that could cause the motor to brake whenever throttle is reduced. In this kind of mode, then it usually works whenever reducing throttle, but if you just let go of the throttle and let it snap back to zero, the system just coasts, not powering the motor but not braking either.

if it's not that, you might check to make sure that power usage isn't higher than normal for no-load operation of the motor (typically 2-3A for many motors). If it's a lot higher than it should be, or it seems to spin way faster than it should, you might have the wrong phase/hall wiring combination, whcih can cause all sorts of wierd behavior depending on how the controller responds to the situation.

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by _GonZo_ » Jan 11 2021 7:09am

Ronin wrote:
Jan 10 2021 10:00am
Hi, I try to build an drag bike, and just got my new Kelly KBL96251 controller and try to set it up.
The problem is when I let go of throttle, the motor brakes. If I try to use throttle while wheel is spinning, it just makes bad sound and stops. I get error code 3-2, internal reset.
This is not possible anyhow i configure the settings. Any tip?
For what you say and the led code error 3-2:
I think that the problem is that the motor phase wires and hall sensor wires are not connected in the right combination.
You have to check the different combinations of wiring the motor phase cables and hall sensors cables in order to find the correct ones. There is 36 different possible combinations, only 6 of them make the motor work properly, 3 in one way and 3 in the reverse.

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by _GonZo_ » Jan 11 2021 7:13am

Here you have a chart that can help you to find the right combinations.
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Ronin   1 mW

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 11 2021 8:23am

I have tried all 36 combinations, found 3 of them slow forward, 3 fast forward, and 6 back. Seems it goes fine when I use one of the 3 slow modes, but the wheel dont turn faster than about 100km/h... I am building a bike that is up to 160+. So did I just buy motor and controller that cant be set together? I bought the torque mode motor, QS V3 273 and not sure about the controller, it says on aliexpress that it support 40.000 erpm, 70.000 and 100.000 ... if it is locked in 40.000 I must find out how adjust to 100.000.

When I have tried one of the fast modes, the wheel spins up to about 250km/h in a short second, it has raw power, spin it up to max and I cannot break the wheel with the disc brake. When in slow mode, I can brake the wheel with no problem, so it has a lot lower effect in slow mode. Also the motor brakes a little bit in slow mode when re-using throttle when wheel is still spinning, so it has this unwanted electro brake function in both slow and fast mode.

My old 5000w controller also burst the wheel up to 250km/h fine without trouble in one of the 3 fast modes. It also has 3 slow modes, where the wheel goes about 100km/h. I have 24" wheels on my bike btw. Also a 5000w front hub motor with a 5000w controller. I got it up to 130km/h, 0-100 in 3.1sec, 0-120 in 4.0 sec... hope to get some more power with this new motor and controller.

Maybe I can experiment a bit with adjusting down the max ampere and max power output settings...

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 11 2021 10:05am

Arg... seems I misunderstood about max ERPM, I sure have to send it back to upgrade from 40.000 to 100.000...

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by _GonZo_ » Jan 11 2021 1:51pm

Kellycontrollers have lots of different parameters for braking that you can tune to get what you need.
Here you have a video I made about the software for programming the KLS series. I do not know if it can be applied to the KBL ones but provably is similar.
Hope it helps.

[youtube]A_si4IfU5so[/youtube]

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by _GonZo_ » Jan 11 2021 1:58pm

You say you got the "torque mode motor QS V3 273"
Do you know motor KV, or how many cooper turns it has (T)? (usually they have from 3T to 6T)
Because QS motors have different windings for every motor model, you may have bought a low KV motor. :?:

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 11 2021 2:40pm

Thanks but there are just a very few parameters to adjust in KBL software... I bought the 5T motor.

I have also tested my other controller on the QS motor, with kelly controller connected to my front motor, and even when I spin my QS motor with the other controller the kelly controller gets 3-2 error code when I let go of throttle. Voltage is 108 volt and gets down to 90 or something when running motor fast. Kelly controller low voltage protection is set to 18 volt, overvoltage to 120 volt. So what is happening?

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by _GonZo_ » Jan 11 2021 5:52pm

I bought the 5T motor.
The 5T and upwards are the medium/slow motors, I do not have the full details on your precise motor but it provably is around 10KV (10rpm per volt), so 1000rpm at 100V that is around 114Km/h for a 24" diameter wheel.
I believe it is a 16 PolePair motor so 1000rpm x 16PolePair = 16.000Erpm, Then I think that you do not need to modify the controller.
I believe the issue about speed is not the controller or the motor.
If you want more speed you need: or larger wheel, or more voltage, or a higher KV motor.
even when I spin my QS motor with the other controller the kelly controller gets 3-2 error code when I let go of throttle
That is a symptom that the combinations of wiring is not the correct one.
But maybe something else like non appropriate hall sensors angle programmed.

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 12 2021 12:40pm

Ok, so now I learned the hard way exacly what the difference between 3.5T and 5T is for real... I read a lot of it before I bought motor and controller, but not enough though...

So this is the thing, when I use any of the controller on the QS motor and let go of throttle, it breaks a bit and the voltage gets over 120, thats the reason why it gets error code 3-2. Run it in normal(slow) mode and it spins only QS motor to 110. My front wheel motor spins to 180, so that is probably a 3 or 3.5T motor then. Older 5000W, dont remember brand.

So what can I do... connect both controllers correct and front wheel spins in 180km/h and QS back wheel spins in around 110. So which alternatives do I have to get more speed... buy another motor, thats too expensive. If I upgrade the kelly controller to support 100.000 ERPM, will the QS run at 110/40*100 = 275 km/h? lets say I upgrade to 70.000 ERPM, will it spin to 110/40*70=192 km/h?

I am also thinking about over voltage protection circuit, that protects over 108 volt, but still motor brakes when letting go of throttle, that could be catastrophal if I reach 150+... or what do you think?

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Ronin   1 mW

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 12 2021 10:46pm

Ok, learning the expensive way here... got an answer from Kellystore...

"The speed of the controller:
1. High-speed or ultra-high-speed controllers will not affect the rotation speed of the motor, because the speed is determined internally by the motor. Therefore, if you choose an ultra-high-speed motor, the motor speed will still be the same as before.
2. If you only wants to increase the motor speed, the only way is to increase the battery voltage"

So that means I have to change the motor. Buy a 3.5T version... shit...

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by j bjork » Jan 13 2021 3:08am

Yes, and you will need a much beefier controller too. 250 phase amps on a 273, and you are talking about drag racing?

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by John in CR » Jan 13 2021 3:30am

Ronin wrote:
Jan 11 2021 2:40pm
Thanks but there are just a very few parameters to adjust in KBL software... I bought the 5T motor.

I have also tested my other controller on the QS motor, with kelly controller connected to my front motor, and even when I spin my QS motor with the other controller the kelly controller gets 3-2 error code when I let go of throttle. Voltage is 108 volt and gets down to 90 or something when running motor fast. Kelly controller low voltage protection is set to 18 volt, overvoltage to 120 volt. So what is happening?
You need to measure no load current. My experienced guess is that you're about to blow the motor and/or controller with an incorrect wiring configuration. It's likely what I call a "false positive" that spins the wheel but is incorrect. There's no way a torque version 273 will spin to 250kph on 108V with correct wiring. The reason voltage is sagging so much spinning up without load is the very advanced timing of the wrong wire combo, and the controller is drawing high current to do so, which is turning lots of energy into heat. The correct combo is one of the 3 that spin the wheel in the correct direction and draw relatively low current to spin the motor up to max speed.

FWIW, it is never ever necessary to try all 36 combinations and when someone suggests it you should run the other way. Every hall combo has exactly one valid phase wire combo, and every phase wire combo has one valid hall combo. Of the 6 valid combos, 3 are forward and 3 are reverse. The secret is never change halls and phases at the same time (whichever is more difficult to swap just keep static and just swap 2, only 2 and any 2, if you get a valid reverse). To keep it easy and systematic only swap 2 wires at a time. Then you don't even have to keep notes or anything, and you'll get the correct wiring in 11 tries or less...usually a lot less, since I wire up 6 phase motors with 6 phase wires and 10 hall wires in an average of about 10 tries.

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by _GonZo_ » Jan 13 2021 8:19am

Like others says and KellyContollers people says the KV of a motor is an inherent characteristic of the motor that can not be changed with the controller obviously.
So this is the thing, when I use any of the controller on the QS motor and let go of throttle, it breaks a bit and the voltage gets over 120, thats the reason why it gets error code 3-2.
Running the motor with the incorrect cables combination will end burning the motor or controller or even both, as John says.
If you only wants to increase the motor speed, the only way is to increase the battery voltage
So that means I have to change the motor. Buy a 3.5T version... shit...
The 3rd option will be to increase the wheel size for a larger diameter one, or use it as a middle motor with a chain/belt from a big sprocket to a small sprocket in the wheel in order to increase ratio.

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 13 2021 12:55pm

Not going to burn any controller or motor, will stop testing with the combination that runs motor fast. I did it easily so no worries.

So I am thinking about selling the QS and get something like this 3.5T motor https://www.ebay.com/itm/EU-duty-FREE-H ... SwzI5f5a~k
I cant find my receipt for my old front motor, but think it is the same. And about drag racing, yes... with 2 wheel drive, 5000w on each wheel the bike almost runs like a rocket. As I said my earlier test is 3.1sec from 0-100km/h. And if the KBL96251 can deliver 8000w in some few seconds I think I will be satisfied. The QS273 is very heavy too. Just wanted to try to build something wild, and dont cry for failing when building and learning about this. Thanks very much for all your answers, love this forum. :)

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 13 2021 1:00pm

here is a picture of the bike btw... :) 6 54volt batteries mounted on stainless plates. The horns was just an experiment and have taken them off...
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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 13 2021 1:02pm

Little more detailed. Also double disc and calipers on front wheel.
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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 13 2021 1:06pm

Here as it is per today... too bad i cant use this motor... yeye
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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by _GonZo_ » Jan 15 2021 5:27am

Kind of a beast. :shock: I wonder what you want pedals for in a machine like that :lol: :lol:

BTW, you need to invest some time/work in better cable management :wink:

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 15 2021 7:39am

Hehe, yes its a beast. Of course, cables will be set up very nice maybe behind some lists or something, I will figure it out after finished building. I am thinking to keep the pedals, better to take curves when you can lean right foot forward or backwards, after how the curve and speed is... And just in case I should be observed testing it where it is not fully allowed, I can lean over the batteries and pedal in 30km/h to blend in as I am el biking :roll:

About the QS273, it is too heavy and low geared so I am now waiting for a QS 205 V3 3T motor for my rear wheel. Will just have to test if I have to turn down max effect of the Kelly controller if the motor gets hot.

The motor on the front wheel is either a 3T or a 3.5T QS205, over 2 years I bought it so I dont find any receips, but It spins up to around 180km/h free air with my second controller, unknown brand 3000-6000W 24mosfet 96v controller. Picture below.

And the 6 batteries is kind of heavy, and not too high drain cells are used so if I find next test to drain battery voltage too much I will build 4 new batteries with high drain cells, also to get down size and weight about 10kg and more ampere. But time will tell :)

Last picture about how it will look with only 4 batteries. Think that will be how I will finish it, but a bit lower and longer battery cases. If I don't find another more suitable battery building case... But fit fine with 4, 2 and 2 parallell-coupled from 54 to 108 volt.
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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 15 2021 8:57am

Little more details on brakes and wheel anti-torque bolt plates. Impossible to turn axle on the frame, don't know how much Nm it can take but 10mm stainless on back wheel and 6mm on front wheel, tread in holes fit perfect for the 10x16mm axle. I see I have to fill some weld into axle hole or build new torque plates when rebuilding to QS205 back motor as the axle is a bit thinner.
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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by j bjork » Jan 15 2021 1:20pm

Shit, this thing looks seriously dangerous :shock:
I would not want to be on it when it wheelies on full throttle, and the front wheel spins up to full speed before it hits the ground. It would be really interesting when the fork brakes when the wheel get traction again.

I dont think your motors are the problem if you want more power. You need controllers capable of delivering some serious amps, and a battery that can feed them. Qs motors have the APT 96800 controller for example, if you want to feed that 273. But dont do it on that bike..

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by Ronin » Jan 15 2021 5:35pm

I can understand you say that, but the front suspension is locked and will never extend. Also planning on welding it together but dont feel that would be neccessary. Also a very strong fork, in best steel. Therefor i dont want to change it unless i get a special made mc fork which fit the wheel perfectly. But then I feel I pull away from it being a el bike. I could build a very strong el motorbike If i wanted, but here I am trying to enhance this bike frame as much as possible. I am in other hand considering welding on some extra strenght around the forkhead. And if you wheelie, you can also use your brain and let go of front throttle. The testings I did, I could easily accelerate to 100, hit front brake and lift backwheel up to the balance point till complete stop very easily. Cant wait to get it up running again for further building it complete. 8)

That said, I am grateful and thanksful for all tips from all of you in this building and learning process. :thumb: Visualize any situation where it can need improvement...

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Re: Kelly KBL 96251 and QS V3 273 trouble

Post by amberwolf » Jan 16 2021 12:55am

FWIW, if I were making a bike like this, I'd be using a fork that has a crown / clamp above and below the headtube, like this:
Image


so that this kind of thing can never happen:
Image
Image
Mine was from a very low speed impact, but with a really super cheap fork like you have there (I have had quite a few like that), it's not unheard of for them to do the same thing from other much less stressful causes. :(

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