Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

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jamiejackherer   1 W

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Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by jamiejackherer » Feb 21 2021 7:57pm

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by Vbruun » Feb 22 2021 6:25am

Changing thickness Will change KV. Do you want that?

Else, stick with the same turn count and thickness

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Post by jamiejackherer » Feb 22 2021 6:27am

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by Thecoco974 » Feb 22 2021 8:16am

The wire thickness does not mean anything, current carrying ability is all about total cross-sectional area and total lengh of wire. Also, more thinner wire are going to be easyer to wind. You can estimate the lengh you need by measuring one of the phase you removed, factoring the increase of turn count and taking 50cm extra for margin of error.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by jamiejackherer » Feb 22 2021 10:36am

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by Thecoco974 » Feb 22 2021 11:45am

The number of parallel strand time the sectional area of one strand gives the phase sectional copper area S. You can then get the phase resistance with the resistivity of copper Rho and the phase length L with this formula :
R=rho *(L/S)
With a lower the resistance you can push more AMP without overheating (there is a max value where the iron is satured ). There is no difference between two wind with the same section one with 1mm and the other with 0.5 and more parallele wire. It's mostly a matter of ease of winding.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by stepus » Feb 23 2021 3:59am

Its better to use more paralel wires, its easy to hand winding, better use space in slots, and higher efficiency because skin effect at switching freq.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by Lewp91 » Mar 11 2021 4:18pm

Thinner why is better As the ennamel is also thinner trust me been there.. I wanted to use 0.71. then I found 3 calculators that proved me wrong.. the 0.31 (so long as its the thin 150c coat) will give the highest copper fill every time. (For amature hand winding anyway)

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by larsb » Mar 12 2021 3:05pm

Most of you are wrong here, in several ways. Torque capacity of a motor is the same for all windings if you have battery and controller to drive it with current as needed.

There’s no such thing as a torque winding or slow winding either (what are you comparing with when you’re calling it slow? A 10-turn is slower than a 5-turn but is fast compared to a 20-turn at same voltage)

It all depends on the balance of drive voltage, drive current and having a winding that matches these two.

Then what thickness of wire to wind is a balance of
- increased eddy losses with thickness of wires due to skin effect
- increased winding time due to stiff wires
but also
- increased copper fill and because of this higher current capability.
- loss of turns for thicker wires since that last wire can’t fit in the last available space (normally the multiwire crossings can take more space than this)

Single wire winds with thick wire can be done without getting the wires laying crossed on the stator teeth (impossible when winding many strands of tiny parallell wires) so there’s no lost fill percent. One crossing equals one lost strand turn at a minimum. This is why single thicker wire winding can often be a superior if done correctly.

Thin wires are not better since they have thinner enamel. Yes, they are damaged a lot easier..
In relation to their copper area they have relatively more enamel than thicker wires and that’s what counts.
Last edited by larsb on Mar 13 2021 2:26am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by Chalo » Mar 12 2021 4:56pm

larsb wrote:
Mar 12 2021 3:05pm
Most of you are wrong here, in several ways. Torque capacity of a motor is the same for all windings if you have battery and controller to drive it with current as needed.
This is true, but high turn counts give more torque per phase amp. Increasing phase current is usually more expensive and difficult than increasing voltage, so if you want to maximize torque, a high turn count can be a more feasible way to get there than a low turn count with high phase amps.
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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by larsb » Mar 13 2021 2:22am

Agreed :thumb:

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by John in CR » Mar 14 2021 12:03pm

If you overheated a motor already, then the only way to get better performance is to increase cooling, change how your ride to make less heat, and/or include temperature sensing so your controller will automatically cut back current at a given motor temp and cut power completely if temps continue to climb.

Personally I find increasing cooling the easiest and most effective route, but invest in a better motor first.

edit- Improved motor control can also reduce heat through greater efficiency, but you generally won't feel a big improvement in the raw torque of a cool motor. It's more of a trimming of the waveform to make it match better to exactly what the motor needs for less waste electricity sent through it.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by jamiejackherer » Mar 21 2021 6:08am

larsb wrote:Most of you are wrong here, in several ways. Torque capacity of a motor is the same for all windings if you have battery and controller to drive it with current as needed.

There’s no such thing as a torque winding or slow winding either (what are you comparing with when you’re calling it slow? A 10-turn is slower than a 5-turn but is fast compared to a 20-turn at same voltage)

It all depends on the balance of drive voltage, drive current and having a winding that matches these two.

Then what thickness of wire to wind is a balance of
- increased eddy losses with thickness of wires due to skin effect
- increased winding time due to stiff wires
but also
- increased copper fill and because of this higher current capability.
- loss of turns for thicker wires since that last wire can’t fit in the last available space (normally the multiwire crossings can take more space than this)

Single wire winds with thick wire can be done without getting the wires laying crossed on the stator teeth (impossible when winding many strands of tiny parallell wires) so there’s no lost fill percent. One crossing equals one lost strand turn at a minimum. This is why single thicker wire winding can often be a superior if done correctly.

Thin wires are not better since they have thinner enamel. Yes, they are damaged a lot easier..
In relation to their copper area they have relatively more enamel than thicker wires and that’s what counts.
I have ridden bikes with different number of windings. The 3.5T motors are slower to accelerate but have a higher top speed. 5T motors have a much lower top speed but have really brutally high torque when setting off from a standing start or when climbing hills.

A perfect example is that the 3.5T motor was not able to climb my testing hill (40% incline) but the 5T motor actually accelerated up the same hill. This is using the same battery, controller and bike. The only change was the number of winding turns in the motor.

How can this be if what you say is correct?

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by jamiejackherer » Mar 21 2021 6:13am

John in CR wrote:If you overheated a motor already, then the only way to get better performance is to increase cooling, change how your ride to make less heat, and/or include temperature sensing so your controller will automatically cut back current at a given motor temp and cut power completely if temps continue to climb.

Personally I find increasing cooling the easiest and most effective route, but invest in a better motor first.

edit- Improved motor control can also reduce heat through greater efficiency, but you generally won't feel a big improvement in the raw torque of a cool motor. It's more of a trimming of the waveform to make it match better to exactly what the motor needs for less waste electricity sent through it.
It frustrates me greatly when I hear this.

Do you honestly believe that a motor cannot be rewound to handle more voltage and/or current?

The materials used in these motors is very basic and cheap materials. Like the insulating paper that I took out actually sets on fire when applying a flame. And will begin to melt at 130°C. The enamel on the copper wire is very low quality/thin and is easily scratched off.

So by using high quality materials, it is obvs possible to run more power and not experience the materials melting or burning.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by j bjork » Mar 21 2021 6:41am

jamiejackherer wrote:
Mar 21 2021 6:08am
larsb wrote:Most of you are wrong here, in several ways. Torque capacity of a motor is the same for all windings if you have battery and controller to drive it with current as needed.

There’s no such thing as a torque winding or slow winding either (what are you comparing with when you’re calling it slow? A 10-turn is slower than a 5-turn but is fast compared to a 20-turn at same voltage)

It all depends on the balance of drive voltage, drive current and having a winding that matches these two.
I have ridden bikes with different number of windings. The 3.5T motors are slower to accelerate but have a higher top speed. 5T motors have a much lower top speed but have really brutally high torque when setting off from a standing start or when climbing hills.

A perfect example is that the 3.5T motor was not able to climb my testing hill (40% incline) but the 5T motor actually accelerated up the same hill. This is using the same battery, controller and bike. The only change was the number of winding turns in the motor.

How can this be if what you say is correct?

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How does that make anything in larsb:s post incorrect? Just as he said it is a balance of phase amp and volt. If you use two different windings on the same controller you will get different result. Your controller simply cant feed the 3,5turn motor enough phase amp.

Btw, I think it looks like a few strands in your motor was shorted to the stator lamination's or something. If you really overheated the motor I think it should not be just a few strands. But maybe I am wrong, as no one else said anything

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by jamiejackherer » Mar 21 2021 8:21am


j bjork wrote:
jamiejackherer wrote:
Mar 21 2021 6:08am
larsb wrote:Most of you are wrong here, in several ways. Torque capacity of a motor is the same for all windings if you have battery and controller to drive it with current as needed.

There’s no such thing as a torque winding or slow winding either (what are you comparing with when you’re calling it slow? A 10-turn is slower than a 5-turn but is fast compared to a 20-turn at same voltage)

It all depends on the balance of drive voltage, drive current and having a winding that matches these two.
I have ridden bikes with different number of windings. The 3.5T motors are slower to accelerate but have a higher top speed. 5T motors have a much lower top speed but have really brutally high torque when setting off from a standing start or when climbing hills.

A perfect example is that the 3.5T motor was not able to climb my testing hill (40% incline) but the 5T motor actually accelerated up the same hill. This is using the same battery, controller and bike. The only change was the number of winding turns in the motor.

How can this be if what you say is correct?

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How does that make anything in larsb:s post incorrect? Just as he said it is a balance of phase amp and volt. If you use two different windings on the same controller you will get different result. Your controller simply cant feed the 3,5turn motor enough phase amp.

Btw, I think it looks like a few strands in your motor was shorted to the stator lamination's or something. If you really overheated the motor I think it should not be just a few strands. But maybe I am wrong, as no one else said anything
Firstly, I never said "incorrect" I asked how it "is correct".

I'm still in the early stages of learning so hopefully you explain this to me. Let's put very technical stuff to one side for a moment.

Phase amp/current = the current pulled by each phase.

So if my ammeter is reading 100A, that means I have 100A being pulled from the battery. And in a 3 phase motor only 2 phases are ever active at one time. That means the phase amperage is 50A. So as long as the parallel strands are able to carry those 50A per phase, whether we have 3.5T or 5T, we still have 50A in each phase?

It all very well and good telling me it this way or that way, or that doesn't work like that etc. But people should really be explaining why....

Now additionally, I wonder, if my controller has a max amp rating of 105A but I'm only pulling 50A in total, surely that means I still have 55A available to be pulled? Surely the number of turns only affects how that power is used?

And additionally again... You said that a different number of turns will give a different result when using the same controller.... Ok cool.. thats my aim here. I want a different result! I want to have higher torque.

So can anybody explain how I can achieve this? One thing I find on this forum is that many people are able to give their opinion, but rarely back this opinion up with real knowledge. And they seem to know everything but are unable to answer the simple questions.


I want to increase the torque of the motor.

1. Why do motors come in 5T and 3.5T variants that will have more torque and less RPM, and less torque and more rpm respectively, if number of turns is irrelevant?

2. How can I increase the torque of a given motor when rewinding it? Thicker wire? More turns? Both?

P.S. nothing shorted to the stator. The wires enamel got so hot it burned away which caused the shorting to another phase that was not shown in the pictures. Besides the wires you see are not next to the stator but in the outside so it's not possible to short to the stator I'm afraid.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by larsb » Mar 21 2021 10:15am

So can anybody explain how I can achieve this? One thing I find on this forum is that many people are able to give their opinion, but rarely back this opinion up with real knowledge. And they seem to know everything but are unable to answer the simple questions.
We have enough knowledge to explain it but what we don’t have is the job to explain it to you. Just read some motor theory, it’s in the educational links in the motor section, or you can search among my threads for ”the myth”. There are plenty of explanations here on ES already, no need for new ones. It isn’t deep knowledge either, if you can’t be bothered to read up on the basics yourself then, in my view, you can hardly be helped.

One simple pointer:
Torque is proportional to coil field.
coil fields can be measured in ampereturns. That’s ampere*turns
Higher amperage, higher field
Higher turn count, higher field

This goes proportional up to where the steel saturates and flux starts to go outside of the correct magnetic circuit. This limit is fixed for any stator design and dependent on the steel and quality of laminations. If max field is 100 ampereturns then you can achieve the same max through 10A*10turns or with 100A*1turn, remember same max field, same max torque.

As for the coil copper losses: they are only dependent on the copper fill percent, not on the winding dimension.
Why? Ohms law.
a 4 turn winding has 4 times the length of copper and 1/4 of the cross section but needs only a quarter of the current to create the same field as a 1 turn winding.

Thats:
4x higher losses due to higher length
4x higher losses due to lower cross section
but 1/4 current needed to get same ampereturns

As resistive losses are squared proportional to current following ohms law the comparable losses are —> 4*4/4*4=1 —> so losses are the same regardless of winding if winding is done to same fill percent.

The motor on your pic has really poor copper fill so yes, it can be improved if you can wind.
Last edited by larsb on Mar 21 2021 12:20pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by John in CR » Mar 21 2021 10:46am

jamiejackherer wrote:
Mar 21 2021 6:13am
John in CR wrote:If you overheated a motor already, then the only way to get better performance is to increase cooling, change how your ride to make less heat, and/or include temperature sensing so your controller will automatically cut back current at a given motor temp and cut power completely if temps continue to climb.

Personally I find increasing cooling the easiest and most effective route, but invest in a better motor first.

edit- Improved motor control can also reduce heat through greater efficiency, but you generally won't feel a big improvement in the raw torque of a cool motor. It's more of a trimming of the waveform to make it match better to exactly what the motor needs for less waste electricity sent through it.
It frustrates me greatly when I hear this.

Do you honestly believe that a motor cannot be rewound to handle more voltage and/or current?

The materials used in these motors is very basic and cheap materials. Like the insulating paper that I took out actually sets on fire when applying a flame. And will begin to melt at 130°C. The enamel on the copper wire is very low quality/thin and is easily scratched off.

So by using high quality materials, it is obvs possible to run more power and not experience the materials melting or burning.

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You're not nearly as frustrated as I am for having to correct people on this topic for more than 10 years on this forum. The only way you can improve the performance of a motor other than to improve heat dissipation is to fit more total copper on the windings. With a change in the turn count on the stator teeth windings all you accomplish is a change in the combination of voltage and current required to achieve the same result. The rpm, torque and power limits remain the same. If you increase the turn count to get more torque per amp, you also decrease current handling by the same % since the copper windings are thinner in total and longer. Power = Torque X RPM , and if you try to increase power by the other route, increasing RPM/volt , you end up decreasing torque/amp with less turns of shorter thicker copper.

Sure you may be able to get some improvement using better materials, as long as you can wind at least as well as the robotic winding machines or experience professional winders in China, but again why go to all that trouble putting that effort into a motor design to be as cheap as possible and as a result are only moderately efficient at best with stators made with the cheapest steel laminations available.

Spending hard earned treasure and valuable time to make a hubmotor able to run hotter is a bad idea sure to result in another failure. A far more effective route is make your motor run cooler.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by j bjork » Mar 21 2021 10:53am

The myth:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64907

And the battery amp and phase amp is not the same. You can have a lot higher phase amp at a lower voltage than the battery amp and voltage.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by larsb » Mar 21 2021 12:18pm

John in CR wrote:
Mar 21 2021 10:46am
but again why go to all that trouble putting that effort into a motor design to be as cheap as possible and as a result are only moderately efficient at best with stators made with the cheapest steel laminations available.
Agreed, by the look of that winding one might assume that the rest of the motor is indeed made of the cheapest possible materials - it might be turd polishing to rewind it. If OP has the cash it could be better to just buy a better motor.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by jamiejackherer » Mar 22 2021 6:39am

larsb wrote:
if you can’t be bothered to read up on the basics yourself then, in my view, you can hardly be helped.
I really don't appreciate being told I can't be bothered to do something!!!

I have 2 jobs, 6 kids and I am studying a degree aswell... It's not a case of "can't be bothered". Its a case of literally not having the time.. I don't have transport until I can get this done, and I am waiting on some insulating materials currently.

But please don't assume that I can't be bothered! It's just plain rude.

While I appreciate what information you have given me, if you cant help then dont. I'm asking for help so I don't have learn everything about motors just to do a simple rewinding.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by larsb » Mar 22 2021 12:13pm

But people should really be explaining why....
..
So can anybody explain how I can achieve this? One thing I find on this forum is that many people are able to give their opinion, but rarely back this opinion up with real knowledge. And they seem to know everything but are unable to answer the simple questions.

... if you cant help then dont..
Could be that your wording in the quote indicated that
1. You have the right to be fed with answers and we have the obligation to feed you.
2. You think we lack real knowledge.

A nice tone and showing willingness to learn goes a long way when one wants help. You got incorrect advice from people that didn’t know what they were talking about. I tried to help you with this.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by jamiejackherer » Mar 22 2021 12:26pm

larsb wrote:
But people should really be explaining why....
..
So can anybody explain how I can achieve this? One thing I find on this forum is that many people are able to give their opinion, but rarely back this opinion up with real knowledge. And they seem to know everything but are unable to answer the simple questions.
Could be that your wording in the quote indicated that
1. You have the right to be fed with answers and we have the obligation to feed you.
2. You think we lack real knowledge.

A nice tone and showing willingness to learn goes a long way when one wants help.
This is now going into the politics of language and interpretation... You have taken what I said out if context.

The sad fact is I work 16 hours a day, I study 4 hours a night. So if I'm lucky I get 4 hours sleep a day. So I apologize if I have come across in a way you don't appreciate.

I just want someone to help me by explaining the basics of how I can achieve my goal of rewinding the motor to be able to give lots of torque.

I know that motors are wound in various ways to achieve this.. 3.5T... 5T... So for someone with exceptional knowledge in this area I'm sure it's not so difficult to explain it in layman's terms..

"""
Using x.xxmm thickness of wire with 5T will achieve xyz.
"""

When I do have the time I will be learning and reading more and more to be able to learn what I need to know in the future. I'm far from stupid and do have the capacity to learn about this subject, what I don't have is the time! A few people have given opinions without information and other have told me I'm too lazy!!!

The simple fact is that I need to rewind my motor, I know it's possible to run these motors at the sort of power I want to achieve and if I had the basics laid out in front of me then I'd be well on my way to achieving my goal by now.

I thought this forum was a place to ask questions and get help. But it seems it's more about telling folk to learn for themselves.. it's not my fault that the information is there but difficult to find.. I simply don't have the time to sift through a post with over 2000 comments to find the one bit of info I need.

Of course I want to learn otherwise I wouldn't be here asking .. and also if I had the money to buy a new motor I would. I'm not just being lazy.. and I really don't like the implication that I am.



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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by larsb » Mar 22 2021 2:06pm

if I had the basics laid out in front of me then I'd be well on my way to achieving my goal by now.

... it's not my fault that the information is there but difficult to find.. I simply don't have the time to sift through a post with over 2000 comments to find the one bit of info I need.
It’s not that easy to do a rewind without any experience, that combined with that you still come across as someone less willing to learn and more like wanting the solution just served.. that’s the problem. Good luck with it.

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Re: Hub motor rewinding, what thickness of enamelled copper wire?

Post by jamiejackherer » Mar 22 2021 2:20pm


larsb wrote: someone less willing to learn
Bro.. what is it about "I don't have the time as I work 2 jobs, study a degree and have 6 kids" that you struggle to understand??

I am willing to learn.. I just don't have the time to learn everything from scratch.

I have limited time, so if someone was actually going to be kind enough to share their knowledge on this specific bit of motor winding then I think it would be easy tbh.

I have a BSc in Computer Science and Engineering, a foundation degree in biochemistry and studying another BSc in Computer Networks and Communications, I am a Software Engineer, general programmer and Sys Admin so I don't think understanding the basics would be too difficult for me really. As I say I simply don't have the time to study a new subject right now.

I was hoping someone with knowledge would be willing to share their knowledge with me, and a few people have, which is how I'm getting as far as I am.

I don't know about you, but I think sharing knowledge is the key to success, I certainly don't think telling folk "I know what I'm doing but if you wanna know too you'll have seek the information for yourself because I'm not willing bro share my knowledge" is the way to go about things.

While I appreciate your time, you probably could have explained to me everything I need to know in this conversation but instead you have chosen to attempt to tell me Im lazy, can't be bothered and not willing to learn.

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