TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Electric Motors and Controllers
Lii   10 mW

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Lii » Jun 10 2021 5:13pm

mbrusa wrote:
Jun 10 2021 4:52am
abrainer wrote:
Jun 09 2021 5:46am
I use the stock display version with VLCD6. Columbo from the German forum has used the same version. He has posted a picture of his controller. It looks like it is also the transistors of the "yellow" phase.
Lii wrote:
Jun 09 2021 4:19pm
Today, during an evening walk with a motor on the latest firmware version, a disaster struck. The engine stopped and smoke escaped from the hull. It smells like burnt out transistors .. I haven't disassembled the motor yet, but I think the controller is burnt out. Does anyone have experience with controller remodeling? What parts usually burn out?
I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
I used my bike with XH18 until yesterday with no problems.
So it can only occur under certain conditions, to understand I need some information:
1 - Battery voltage
2 - Battery capacity
3 - Battery SOC% at the time of the problem (approximate)
4 - Motor power at the time of the problem (approximate)
Thank you
It was a movement at a speed of 30 km / h for 10 minutes in the mode with maximum assistance.
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Anikea   1 mW

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Anikea » Jun 10 2021 11:34pm

I am not an expert, but 20A (I thought more than 18A ist not possible for the controller) and 900W, a multiplication faktor of 499 combined with a startupboost and start without pedal Rotation.... Maybe that ist a little bit to much for a tsdz2?

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by freexxx » Jun 11 2021 3:21am

I think the TSDZ2 has a small engine with weak cooling. I see the maximum constant power somewhere on the border of 250W. In the short term, maybe 750 W, but I quite doubt the dimension of the gearbox. I have a temperature limit of 70C and an off limit of 85C. Power limited to 460W and I have no problem with a cadence of about 70 to warm the engine on a plane to this limit. about 10km. Later it starts to limit me, is it normally such a fairly fast warm-up? I'm not even talking about going uphill. assist only 3 on hybrid. Otherwise I like this engine. :thumb: We could share our settings together, it could help others.

Lii   10 mW

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Lii » Jun 11 2021 4:16am

The previous version of the firmware with similar settings worked well even in the most difficult conditions. I think the problem of Mosfeet's burnout is in the PWM frequency. At the time of the burnout of the controller, the load on the engine was not large. I don't know exactly what changes were made in the new version. But I think that too high a PWM frequency can cause combustion..
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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Jun 11 2021 5:10am

Lii wrote:
Jun 11 2021 4:16am
The previous version of the firmware with similar settings worked well .... I think the problem of Mosfeet's burnout is in the PWM frequency......
You are right. Setting the limits to 20A 900W doesn't mean that they will be used, so could work well, but as said the controller hardcoded limit is 18A, so OSF 20A limit will not work, it should be lower than 18A for effectivity.
I too think that the catastrophic failure has to do with (wrong) timing. But it is strange that the only the stock version of OSF has this.
No complains with other display versions or older mspider65 BT version.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Lii » Jun 11 2021 8:37am

According to the mosfet datasheet, the current can be much higher than 20A. The main limitation can be the motor winding, which will get very hot. But this will only work at a relatively low PWM frequency. At a higher frequency, the mosfet will not have time to quickly open and close, it will start to heat up. At some moment, one key in the pair will already open and the second will not have time to closeing. The characteristics of the opening and closing speed of these mosfets are not very fast.
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raylo32   1 kW

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by raylo32 » Jun 11 2021 10:18am

Assuming that cruise mode is enabled how does one actually engage the function whilst riding with VLCD5? The manual is silent on that detail.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Jun 11 2021 11:10am

raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 10:18am
...cruise mode is enabled how does one actually engage the function whilst riding with VLCD5?.....
You can enable cruise mode only with display, not with configurator.

enable:
Level 3 - 2+2+2 clicks, wait E04 stop flashing

disable:
choose assistent mode you want, for example:
"power assist"
Level 2 - 2 clicks, wait E02 stop flashing

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Jun 11 2021 11:23am

Lii wrote:
Jun 11 2021 8:37am
... But this will only work at a relatively low PWM frequency. At a higher frequency, the mosfet will not have time to quickly open and close, it will start to heat up. ....
I think this is the reason why mspider65 decreased that frequency and increased the dead time with his latest BT release (v13).

But the versions before where all with the higher frequency and lower deadtime and only now the stock display version has a problem.
Last edited by Elinx on Jun 11 2021 11:51am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by raylo32 » Jun 11 2021 11:39am

OK, I knew to enable it in the menu (but that is one parameter that I never see the digit change to "1", it stays 0. Maybe I need to be moving for this to take??) I had assumed, apparently wrongly, that there would be a one button 1-click or hold method to actually engage it that would be less distracting whilst riding and that activating a brake would drop out of cruise back into the previous mode (I am using Hybrid). Looks like this is not going to be very useable after all if I have to keep going deep into the menus just to turn it on and off and again to get back to my preferred mode.

I saw a youtube video where they engaged cruise by holding down the "down" button for a long press. but I am not sure what firmware that particular TSDZ2 user had.

Elinx wrote:
Jun 11 2021 11:10am
raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 10:18am
...cruise mode is enabled how does one actually engage the function whilst riding with VLCD5?.....
You can enable cruise mode only with display, not with configurator.

enable:
Level 3 - 2+2+2 clicks, wait E04 stop flashing

disable:
choose assistent mode you want, for example:
"power assist"
Level 2 - 2 clicks, wait E02 stop flashing

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Jun 11 2021 11:55am

raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 11:39am
.....
I saw a youtube video where they engaged cruise by holding down the "down" button for a long press. ....
Are you sure this was "cruise"mode and not "walk" assist.
With OSF you still can change the speed of walk assist. But this works as a dead man button
Last edited by Elinx on Jun 11 2021 11:58am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by raylo32 » Jun 11 2021 11:57am

Yes, it was a cruise control demo.

So the way you describe it the bike will keep the cruise speed up until I change the mode again or hold down the brakes? I mean I can always cut the motor out and slow with the brake but when the brake is released I would still be in cruise mode and the bike will accelerate? This sounds very dangerous.
Elinx wrote:
Jun 11 2021 11:55am
raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 11:39am
.....
I saw a youtube video where they engaged cruise by holding down the "down" button for a long press. ....
Are you sure this was "cruise"mode and not "walk" assist.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by raylo32 » Jun 11 2021 12:02pm

This link says to hold down the power button to activate cruise. This is on a 2019 version of OSF as near as I can tell. Probably not the VLCD5 back then since the OSF has only more recently been ported to the OEM displays.

And BTW, I have walk assist off. I don't see any need for that function. If I can't push my bike I shouldn't be on it!

https://empoweredpeople.co.uk/2019/01/2 ... em-part-2/

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Jun 11 2021 12:30pm

raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 11:57am
...the way you describe it the bike will keep the cruise speed up until I change the mode again or hold down the brakes? .... This sounds very dangerous.
..
Yes, but you only can enable "cruise without pedaling" if you have "brake sensor" enabled.
Normally you have to pedal a tiny bit.
If you stop pedaling without brakes the motor stops too.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Jun 11 2021 12:32pm

raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 12:02pm
This link says to hold down the power button to activate cruise. ....
OSF v0.18 for KT LCD3 or stock display and as I understand well, like a dead man switch too. The same as walkassist.
With stock display there was only walk assist on v0.18 of marcoq
Last edited by Elinx on Jun 11 2021 12:44pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by raylo32 » Jun 11 2021 12:36pm

I do have brakes sensors installed and enabled. I haven't tried this on the road yet, I was just trying to enable the function on the work stand to be ready to try on the road. But I see now why that failed and why I don't see the status digit change.

What would be really nice... and perhaps impossible with this particular hardware?... is to program this to work like in a car with an easy way to engage whilst riding with one operation of a button at current speed, and disengage with tap of the brake... without affecting the base pedaling assistance mode.

Quote
"Yes, but you only can enable "cruise without pedaling" if you have "brake sensor" enabled.
Normally you have to pedal a tiny bit.
If you stop pedaling without brakes the motor stops too."

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Jun 11 2021 12:56pm

raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 12:36pm
.....
What would be really nice... ... is to program this to work like in a car ....
In EU countries it is forbidden to have an ebike without pedaling, like with a throttle or cruise control as you propose.
Such a bike is from another category (small motorcycle) and for that you need a registration, special ensurance, safety additions and a vehicle approval by the goverment.
In some countries they check on regular base ebikes by the roadside for that and check too if the speedlimit of 25km/h can't be changed by the user. (that is why I like the (hidden) streetmode off :) )

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by raylo32 » Jun 11 2021 1:02pm

Well, you pretty much have that cruise function now in OSF... except that it is exceedingly cumbersome to engage... and since it takes you out of your base riding mode, exceedingly cumbersome (and dangerous looking through the menu for the desired assist mode?) to disengage. But the speed maintaining aspect, which is what the regulators might object to, is there if it is enabled.
Elinx wrote:
Jun 11 2021 12:56pm
raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 12:36pm
.....
What would be really nice... ... is to program this to work like in a car ....
In EU countries it is forbidden to have an ebike without pedaling, like with a throttle or cruise control as you propose.
Such a bike is from another category (small motorcycle) and for that you need a registration, special ensurance, safety additions and a vehicle approval by the goverment.
Last edited by raylo32 on Jun 11 2021 1:05pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Jun 11 2021 1:05pm

raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 1:02pm
... exceedingly cumbersome to disengage. ..
Switch motor off if there is a checkup.
And on again to get the default assistmode and streetmode (25km/h limit).
Last edited by Elinx on Jun 11 2021 1:08pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by raylo32 » Jun 11 2021 1:08pm

I guess that is better than poring through the menus. I can't see using the cruise. All this menuing... and/or power cycling the motor would be just too distracting unless one knew he had, say, 10 miles uninterrupted running ahead. And when do we EVER have that?
Elinx wrote:
Jun 11 2021 1:05pm
raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 1:02pm
... exceedingly cumbersome to disengage. ..
Switch motor off and on to get the default assistmode again.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by raylo32 » Jun 11 2021 1:12pm

And hey, I am NOT busting the developers' chops. They are doing great work... and there may be some hardware and/or software reason the cruise operation has to be this way. It's just not a rider friendly function that can quickly and easily engaged and canceled depending on constantly changing riding conditions.
Last edited by raylo32 on Jun 11 2021 1:18pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Jun 11 2021 1:18pm

raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 1:08pm
... poring through the menus. ...
This is just relative, because you setup your desired default settings with the configurator and use only some other settings for example on road or off road or disable streetmode on the road.
If you have some practice with menu handling on the display it isn't that bad.
Only as a starter it is overwhelming to click so many times to change something.
For XH18 and Vlcd5 that clicking can be done easy and relative fast, but with Vlcd6 you need to push the button 2 seconds everytime.
if you want easier acces to different modes, than a choice for 860C or BT interface with smartphone should be better.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by raylo32 » Jun 11 2021 1:22pm

Sure you get better at it. But no matter how good you get it seems totally unnecessary and unnecessarily distracting to deal with whilst underway. Unlike most all the other parameter selections this one really should be a heads-up function to be safe and useful.... SINCE YOU ARE MOVING! Just like in your car. IMO.
Elinx wrote:
Jun 11 2021 1:18pm
raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 1:08pm
... poring through the menus. ...
This is just relative, because you setup your desired default settings with the configurator and use only some other settings for example on road or off road or disable streetmode on the road.
If you have some practice with menu handling on the display it isn't that bad.
Only as a starter it is overwhelming to click so many times to change something.
For XH18 and Vlcd5 that clicking can be done easy and relative fast, but with Vlcd6 you need to push the button 2 seconds everytime.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Jun 11 2021 1:28pm

raylo32 wrote:
Jun 11 2021 1:22pm
.. This really should be a heads-up function to be safe and useful. Just like in your car. IMO....
I have tried the cruise mode a few times with XH18 (level switch is a rotating handle), but with level 0 or stop pedaling the bike stops. It didn't feel dangerous for me.
Speed up from level 0 to level 4, stop pedaling and go to level 0 is almost like a throttle

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by raylo32 » Jun 11 2021 2:06pm

What you said is the crux of this...I am sure at some point I will "try" this feature. But, again, IMO it is a novelty feature and isn't going to be very useful, and IMO, not as safe as it should be. Takes only a split second to go off a bike path into a ditch or less of a split second to hit a road curb whilst interacting with the screen. Not to mention the inconvenience when you want to go back to the default mode. Why not just hold a current speed at the touch (or 2?) of a button and release it with the next brake tap? What could have been... Oh, well.
Elinx wrote:
Jun 11 2021 1:28pm
I have tried the cruise mode a few times with XH18 (level switch is a rotating handle), but with level 0 or stop pedaling the bike stops. It didn't feel dangerous for me.
Speed up from level 0 to level 4, stop pedaling and go to level 0 is almost like a throttle

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