TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Electric Motors and Controllers
Mr.Flibble   1 W

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Mr.Flibble » Mar 27 2021 12:23pm

dameri wrote:
Mar 27 2021 3:20am
mbrusa wrote:
Mar 26 2021 12:55pm
Mr.Flibble wrote:
Mar 25 2021 3:03pm
...
I opened the motor today, and there seems to have been some water ingress.
All the connections appear clean, but one of the torque sensor springs has escaped.
Any suggestions of where to get replacements?
The only springs I have seen are from this seller, unfortunately the delivery times are long.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3286545 ... 4c4d8TYVrl

I have read that on newer motors the springs are not 3, but 2.
I ordered from that seller torque sensor. I wanted old one with three springs. They send me message we don't have three spring version available, do you accept two spring version. I accepted and they sent me two spring version with three springs.

You can remove one knob from old torque sensor and glue it to new one which have only two knobs.

Glued_torque_sensor_knog.JPG
Confused.....
The HMM says the springs go in the elongated holes, but the wiki has them going in the round ones where the lugs from the torque ring go?

andrea_104kg   100 W

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by andrea_104kg » Mar 27 2021 1:18pm

Has anyone noticed a noticeable rise in temperature with this version of the software? I have a thermometer mounted on the engine (not connected to the control unit, only temperature indication) and after just over 1 km of climbing it easily reaches 90 °. The engine is also equipped with thermal pads

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by jeff.page.rides » Mar 28 2021 2:05pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Mar 27 2021 1:18pm
Has anyone noticed a noticeable rise in temperature with this version of the software? I have a thermometer mounted on the engine (not connected to the control unit, only temperature indication) and after just over 1 km of climbing it easily reaches 90 °. The engine is also equipped with thermal pads
This V20.1C puts out much more low-end power if you choose to set it up that way. On any version, the more power it puts out the more the temp goes up, Power=Temp. That is why it is up to each user to pay attention to the temperature and make adjustments accordingly to fit your riding style and not hurt the motor or the Blue Gear. Just because you can use settings that put out a lot of power doesn't mean you should.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by mctubster » Mar 28 2021 3:57pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Mar 27 2021 1:18pm
Has anyone noticed a noticeable rise in temperature with this version of the software? I have a thermometer mounted on the engine (not connected to the control unit, only temperature indication) and after just over 1 km of climbing it easily reaches 90 °. The engine is also equipped with thermal pads
Also there was a bug that was fixed a week or so after the original release it was reading 10 deg too high. Flash the motor again with the latest

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by andrea_104kg » Mar 28 2021 4:41pm

jeff.page.rides wrote:
Mar 28 2021 2:05pm
andrea_104kg wrote:
Mar 27 2021 1:18pm
Has anyone noticed a noticeable rise in temperature with this version of the software? I have a thermometer mounted on the engine (not connected to the control unit, only temperature indication) and after just over 1 km of climbing it easily reaches 90 °. The engine is also equipped with thermal pads
This V20.1C puts out much more low-end power if you choose to set it up that way. On any version, the more power it puts out the more the temp goes up, Power=Temp. That is why it is up to each user to pay attention to the temperature and make adjustments accordingly to fit your riding style and not hurt the motor or the Blue Gear. Just because you can use settings that put out a lot of power doesn't mean you should.
I tried it on a normal hill road, with an external temperature of 13 ° celsius. i locked the watts to 380w. In 2 km the temperature gradually rose to over 80 ° and continued to rise.
I tried 1km with no watt limit in off-road, I was over 90 °
Given the external temperature of only 13 ° i think that will get much worse in summer, making the engine unusable and this is very serious.

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by jbalat » Mar 28 2021 5:54pm

do you have the latest 20c if so are you able to do the same test at 380w on a different firmware

the motor is very weak it is ok for 250w continuous but not much more for prolonged periods, you could be right.. i only use more than 250w when climbing hills but this is normally much less than 2kms
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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by andrea_104kg » Mar 29 2021 3:08am

jbalat wrote:
Mar 28 2021 5:54pm
do you have the latest 20c if so are you able to do the same test at 380w on a different firmware

the motor is very weak it is ok for 250w continuous but not much more for prolonged periods, you could be right.. i only use more than 250w when climbing hills but this is normally much less than 2kms
Yes, I will try with the old version of the software, even if it is not pleasant to reprogram everything (version lcd03). But I also wanted to warn other users because I don't think I'm the only one who lives in the hills and has the engine mounted on a mtb. If my data is correct we could find ourselves with several engines burned out by the arrival of summer. For this a comparison is useful ...

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by mbrusa » Mar 29 2021 4:28am

Andrea I want to reiterate a concept, Jeff explained it well, if the engine consumes and heats more it is because you ask and it gives more power.
If you use Power mode, with Startup boost enabled, the consumption will be greater than disabled, obviously at the same level.
But with Startup boost enabled you can decrease by one level, the consumption will be equivalent and the fatigue will be the same.
To limit the heating, the wattmeter of the thermometer is more important, limiting the maximum power is not the solution if you get there continuously, it is more important to always have an eye on the wattmeter and to use adequate level and gear ratio. My opinion of course.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by andrea_104kg » Mar 29 2021 4:52am

but I'm not new, before this software I had the other software for years, I noticed the difference immediately, I studied the heating problem well and also opened a post on this forum with the hardware changes 2 years ago
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=102046
so I know well how the engine behaves, and in any case I warn you this heats up then believe it or not, I can't do more :-)

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by casainho » Mar 29 2021 5:56am

andrea_104kg wrote:
Mar 29 2021 4:52am
but I'm not new, before this software I had the other software for years, I noticed the difference immediately, I studied the heating problem well and also opened a post on this forum with the hardware changes 2 years ago
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=102046
so I know well how the engine behaves, and in any case I warn you this heats up then believe it or not, I can't do more :-)
I think the only you can do to reduce the motor temperature, is:
- reduce motor current (it is the current that heats the coils and cables, and not the power!): you can limit the motor max current and the motor current ramp values
- disable the Field Weakening or at least look at the display to make sure you make the system to not hit the PWM value of 100
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

mbrusa   100 W

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by mbrusa » Mar 29 2021 6:43am

andrea_104kg wrote:
Mar 29 2021 4:52am
but I'm not new, before this software I had the other software for years, I noticed the difference immediately, I studied the heating problem well and also opened a post on this forum with the hardware changes 2 years ago
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=102046
so I know well how the engine behaves, and in any case I warn you this heats up then believe it or not, I can't do more :-)
Sorry Andrea maybe you have misinterpreted, I'm not questioning what you say, I'm just trying to give an explanation of what you have found.
The differences with the previous version are, Startup Boost which allows for better low cadence response and Field Weakening for high cadence. This improves the driving feel a lot but you pay for it in terms of efficiency, these high and low cadence conditions only have to be transient.
If you ride at an average cadence (60/70) nothing changes.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by andrea_104kg » Mar 29 2021 9:32am

mbrusa, there are no problems. I know I am very heavy and live in the hills, in addition to making a modest off-road, mine is a signal because I am sure that other users use the engine in the mountains, perhaps they are lighter than me but do not have a thermometer to monitor the temperature. We know that the motor is isolated from the outside and feeling the temperature of the case is not a correct index of the internal temperature. So what I would like to say is to be careful, in my opinion with the arrival of summer even users who are lighter than me, if they face uphill routes they could bring the engine to very high temperatures. Not a problem for me, I monitor the temperature in real time. So I'm just telling you to be careful. However I will do other tests to have more objective data.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by docdelete » Mar 29 2021 10:05am

Basic question, hopefully quickly answered:

I have a 48v 11.6Ah battery feeding a 48v 750w TSDZ2 with VLCD5. I'm just trying 20.1C for the first time, and have already reprogrammed the unit successfully. A bit too successfully, it's an awful big performance leap from stock so I'm going to dial it back.

Anyway, the setting "Battery power max (W)" comes from where exactly? Default is 500, but what is this based on please? Should this figure be 750 for my motor?

Thanks!
Ken.
Last edited by docdelete on Mar 30 2021 2:27am, edited 1 time in total.

Nfer   10 W

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Nfer » Mar 29 2021 10:33am

mbrusa wrote:
Mar 29 2021 6:43am
andrea_104kg wrote:
Mar 29 2021 4:52am
but I'm not new, before this software I had the other software for years, I noticed the difference immediately, I studied the heating problem well and also opened a post on this forum with the hardware changes 2 years ago
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=102046
so I know well how the engine behaves, and in any case I warn you this heats up then believe it or not, I can't do more :-)
Sorry Andrea maybe you have misinterpreted, I'm not questioning what you say, I'm just trying to give an explanation of what you have found.
The differences with the previous version are, Startup Boost which allows for better low cadence response and Field Weakening for high cadence. This improves the driving feel a lot but you pay for it in terms of efficiency, these high and low cadence conditions only have to be transient.
If you ride at an average cadence (60/70) nothing changes.
Both 1.0.0 and 0.20.1c consume more Wh than marcoq FW. Same route with same 48v batteries, both full (54v) , wife with marcoq and mine with 1.0.0 and now updated to 0.20.1c. Her battery ends up with 51.2 volts and mine 49.1 volts last time I checked them. The field weakening has a high impact on battery consumption.

0.20.1c does not have the option to disable the field weakening. Opportunity for improvement

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Alfie   100 mW

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Alfie » Mar 29 2021 10:49am

I have had my bike out with the new software a few times now. I must say I am very happy with it. Exactly what I wanted :thumb: Amazingly the motor is much quieter now. I was getting strange noises on the stock firmware and on 1.1.!!!! This has eradicated that completely.

Thank you for such a great update.
bike 8ah.jpg
bike 8ah.jpg (1.87 MiB) Viewed 360 times
Whyte T129 TSDZ2

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by andrea_104kg » Mar 29 2021 12:45pm

ok, i did the comparison. Ascent 2.1 km, max 17% divided into 2 parts, 200mt 15%, 500mt 3-4%, the rest gradually rises up to 17%.
Engine start at 37 °. No limits but without forcing too much by staying around 550w, speed 7kmh.
With the new software 93.8 °
I got home it was impossible to keep my hand on the side cover (pads transmit heat).
I have decided to reschedule 20.1b.
Same climb, same speed and watt, reached the top 67 ° !! 26 degrees less, I'm sorry but the new version is not for me.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Nfer » Mar 29 2021 1:30pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Mar 29 2021 12:45pm
ok, i did the comparison. Ascent 2.1 km, max 17% divided into 2 parts, 200mt 15%, 500mt 3-4%, the rest gradually rises up to 17%.
Engine start at 37 °. No limits but without forcing too much by staying around 550w, speed 7kmh.
With the new software 93.8 °
I got home it was impossible to keep my hand on the side cover (pads transmit heat).
I have decided to reschedule 20.1b.
Same climb, same speed and watt, reached the top 67 ° !! 26 degrees less, I'm sorry but the new version is not for me.
what was the cadence?

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by andrea_104kg » Mar 29 2021 3:16pm

I don't know .... I used the same 34/42 ratio at a speed of about 7kmh in both cases.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Nfer » Mar 29 2021 3:57pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Mar 29 2021 3:16pm
I don't know .... I used the same 34/42 ratio at a speed of about 7kmh in both cases.
Just to see if you trigger the field weakening feature

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by jbalat » Mar 29 2021 6:02pm

So as I was riding home last night I noticed anything above 220w would make temperature rise and anything under 200w would make it fall again. So I would have to rate this motor as a 200W motor for continuous use. Saying that the temperature was still under 55deg until I got to the last hill. By the time I got to the top it was at 68deg which is a bit high for a cool day.. This is fairly low cadence so Im assuming no field weakening but will check PWM readings next time.

Anyway based on the observations from Andrea maybe it is worth doing an independent check of the temperature just to compare against the readings from the display in case it is just a scaling issue ?

Btw the PWM tops at 254 and it hit that many times even at low cadence when climbing. It is always hovering around 200 when I ride. I noticed to FOC angle would fluctuate between 1 and 3 but I did not see it go over 3. Interestingly after climbing the same hill and switching back to the main screen I was only at 58 degrees this time.
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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Anikea » Mar 30 2021 1:37am

My experiences with the temperature are unfortunately not reliable, but I would like to contribute.

I often drive with a trailer and two children and then use around 400 watts / hour. Last winter, when the outside temperature was around 6-10 ° C, the engine did not get warmer than 55 ° C. The motor is modified with thermal pads and paste.

When I changed the firmware, I also put a new motor into operation, but I kept the old controller. I use the internal temperature sensor supported by the firmware. I previously had the sensor on the bearing shell of the motor, now it is attached to the outside of the motor winding with a cable strap. I noticed quite high temperatures right away, but I attributed these to the different positions of the temperature sensor. Although I was a bit surprised that there should be such a large difference between the aluminum bearing shell and the windings.

As I said, unfortunately I have no reliable data on which one could show a difference for sure.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by jbalat » Mar 30 2021 6:03pm

Casainho... Should the field weakening be invoked at full PWM or should it only be used at higher rpm > 90 since I thought it was a method to make the motor spin faster..

Invoking it at lower rpm could account for the temperature rise.. If indeed it is causing overheating and not just reading incorrectly.
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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by seattlesockey » Mar 30 2021 8:46pm

I just happened to notice the hall sensor reading just repeating 4 & 0 compared to a repeating sequence of six numbers. Not experiencing noticeable power loss. Perhaps running a bit louder. Still using v20.1c. Any concerns? Alternate ways to verify hall sensor?

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by maximusdm » Mar 31 2021 4:09am

docdelete wrote:
Mar 29 2021 10:05am
Basic question, hopefully quickly answered:

I have a 48v 11.6Ah battery feeding a 48v 750w TSDZ2 with VLCD5. I'm just trying 20.1C for the first time, and have already reprogrammed the unit successfully. A bit too successfully, it's an awful big performance leap from stock so I'm going to dial it back.

Anyway, the setting "Battery power max (W)" comes from where exactly? Default is 500, but what is this based on please? Should this figure be 750 for my motor?

Thanks!
Ken.
Hi Ken,

Battery wats are actually watt hour, because they mean battery capacity.
48 V* 11 Ah = 530 Wh
In real conditions this is smaller so you can use 500. But if you want to be accurate you should check the battery menu for consumed wh when battery is empty and put that exact value.

Regards!

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Mr.Flibble » Mar 31 2021 4:42am

I have stripped the motor, dried everything out, re-greased, physically calibrated the torque sensor and reassembled. But it is still ghost peddling after a while :(

As It's fine when I test it on the flat, I suspect its heat acting on a dry controller joint.
Anyone got any other ideas?

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