TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Electric Motors and Controllers
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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by docdelete » Mar 31 2021 4:55am

maximusdm wrote:
Mar 31 2021 4:09am

Battery wats are actually watt hour, because they mean battery capacity.
48 V* 11 Ah = 530 Wh
In real conditions this is smaller so you can use 500. But if you want to be accurate you should check the battery menu for consumed wh when battery is empty and put that exact value.

Regards!
Thanks so much for the reply!

So, more or less, this is an estimate of the real capacity of the battery, not the 'dumb' Watthour figure created from multiplying out the nominal manufacturer specifications?

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by maximusdm » Mar 31 2021 6:02am

docdelete wrote:
Mar 31 2021 4:55am
Thanks so much for the reply!

So, more or less, this is an estimate of the real capacity of the battery, not the 'dumb' Watthour figure created from multiplying out the nominal manufacturer specifications?
The parameter has a default value, most probably what the dev has on his bike.
In my case I have a 48v 17ah battery. The real value measured by the soft is 640WH < 816WH ideally. If I set the correct value i have accuracy of 1%, so I never get battery dead in the middle of the trail.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by docdelete » Mar 31 2021 6:06am

Thanks @maximusdum, that's a big help.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by JohnAnanda » Mar 31 2021 9:07am

docdelete wrote:
Mar 29 2021 10:05am
Basic question, hopefully quickly answered:

I have a 48v 11.6Ah battery feeding a 48v 750w TSDZ2 with VLCD5. I'm just trying 20.1C for the first time, and have already reprogrammed the unit successfully. A bit too successfully, it's an awful big performance leap from stock so I'm going to dial it back.

Anyway, the setting "Battery power max (W)" comes from where exactly? Default is 500, but what is this based on please? Should this figure be 750 for my motor?

Thanks!
Ken.
The setting "Battery power max (W)" is actually the maximum amount of power you want to draw from the battery.
You can set it on 750W for your motor, or lower if you want to prevent overheating.
From there, if you want to dial back the power in the various assist levels, you adjust the parameters in the "Assistance settings" tab.

The setting "Battery capacity (Wh)" is where you indicate, well, the capacity of your battery.
For yours, you can set it to 48*11.6=556.8 Wh, and then, once you've charged and discharged it completely and read the residual value (in %), adjust it with the "Battery capacity calibration (%)" parameter.

For the best precision, if you have a (calibrated) voltmeter, you can adjust the "Battery voltage calibration (%)". For instance, I had to set mine on 99% in order to have a correct reading of the voltage of the battery.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by casainho » Mar 31 2021 9:25am

jbalat wrote:
Mar 30 2021 6:03pm
Casainho... Should the field weakening be invoked at full PWM or should it only be used at higher rpm > 90 since I thought it was a method to make the motor spin faster..

Invoking it at lower rpm could account for the temperature rise.. If indeed it is causing overheating and not just reading incorrectly.
Field Weakening start when PWM reaches 100%. It will make the motor rotate faster, you can have a discharged battery or be using a battery like a 24V battery (7S) with a TSDZ2 36V motor.
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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by docdelete » Mar 31 2021 10:26am

JohnAnanda wrote:
Mar 31 2021 9:07am
docdelete wrote:
Mar 29 2021 10:05am
Basic question, hopefully quickly answered:

I have a 48v 11.6Ah battery feeding a 48v 750w TSDZ2 with VLCD5. I'm just trying 20.1C for the first time, and have already reprogrammed the unit successfully. A bit too successfully, it's an awful big performance leap from stock so I'm going to dial it back.

Anyway, the setting "Battery power max (W)" comes from where exactly? Default is 500, but what is this based on please? Should this figure be 750 for my motor?

Thanks!
Ken.
The setting "Battery power max (W)" is actually the maximum amount of power you want to draw from the battery.
You can set it on 750W for your motor, or lower if you want to prevent overheating.
From there, if you want to dial back the power in the various assist levels, you adjust the parameters in the "Assistance settings" tab.
Ah, thanks. That's what I had dialled in, but reduced it according to the answers previously. Your answer makes more sense in light of the comment in the spec with alludes to the rated motor power. Right, laptop and cables out again!

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Mar 31 2021 10:39am

jbalat wrote:
Mar 30 2021 6:03pm
.....
Invoking it at lower rpm could account for the temperature rise.. If indeed it is causing overheating and not just reading incorrectly.
imho the field weakening of mspider65 is not exactly the same as with v1.1, but I read that below 85rpm there shouldn't be any influence.
I read the field weakening introduction of v7 in the other topic and saw a comment of PandaYeti that he observed a temperature rise too, compared to v0.20
So I think that for some people there could be a heat problem, but more important is how to solve this in that case, if you want to use the improvements of v0.20.1C without worry.

Personally I'm very happy with v.0.20.1C and accept the higher battery drain, but I haven't a temperature sensor, so be a bit afraid for the consequences of uncontrolled heat.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Rydon » Mar 31 2021 10:15pm

Question for SW102 users: for SW102 initial flash, is sw102-full-0.19.11.hex still the one to use before upgrading to 20.1C over Bluetooth?

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by JohnAnanda » Apr 01 2021 12:05am

Rydon wrote:
Mar 31 2021 10:15pm
Question for SW102 users: for SW102 initial flash, is sw102-full-0.19.11.hex still the one to use before upgrading to 20.1C over Bluetooth?
I don't know if that's mandatory, but it's the one I used.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Mr.Flibble » Apr 01 2021 12:49am

jbalat wrote:
Mar 30 2021 6:03pm
Casainho... Should the field weakening be invoked at full PWM or should it only be used at higher rpm > 90 since I thought it was a method to make the motor spin faster..

Invoking it at lower rpm could account for the temperature rise.. If indeed it is causing overheating and not just reading incorrectly.
My understanding is that as an electric motor and a dynamo are practically the same, as the motor spins faster the two effects interfere with each other and you lose power.
PWM is used to control speed on things like fans, but they are not pushing anything more difficult than air (which doesn't change thickness/difficulty).

I would have thought that FOC would be linked to motor RPM rather than PWM, as it would cut in un necessarily when climbing - with associated loss of power, just when you don't want it.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by mbrusa » Apr 01 2021 2:34am

Elinx wrote:
Mar 31 2021 10:39am
...
Personally I'm very happy with v.0.20.1C and accept the higher battery drain, but I haven't a temperature sensor, so be a bit afraid for the consequences of uncontrolled heat.
Don't worry Elinx.
This temperature concern is causing some panic.

I do not have a probe to check the temperature, but I have compared the consumption of the battery, with boost disabled it is identical to the previous version.
With startup boost enabled and with the same level of assistance, I immediately noticed an increase in consumption but I saw that I was struggling less and could decrease the assistance parameters, now that I have found the right balance I consume less, even with startup parameters boost higher than the default ones.

Those who have already had temperature problems because, by choice or by necessity, ask the engine more than it can give, will now have more problems, but those who limit the power supplied to an adequate value, have no reason to worry.

Two notes:
Startup boost can be set to softer values, or disabled.
Field Weakening is activated only when the PWM reaches maximum.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by mbrusa » Apr 01 2021 2:37am

Mr.Flibble wrote:
Mar 31 2021 4:42am
I have stripped the motor, dried everything out, re-greased, physically calibrated the torque sensor and reassembled. But it is still ghost peddling after a while :(

As It's fine when I test it on the flat, I suspect its heat acting on a dry controller joint.
Anyone got any other ideas?
To better understand what it depends on, you should take a test in Power assist mode with:
Min current ADC step = 0
Assist w / o pedal rotation = disabled
Startup boost = disabled

If it still fails, immediately check the Pedal torque delta and Pedal cadence values ​​in the Technical menu.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by jbalat » Apr 01 2021 3:14am

Mr Brusa same question to you

It is also possible to hit full pwm when climbing a hill even at low rpm

If field weakening is invoked at this stage could it cause overheating?
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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by casainho » Apr 01 2021 3:45am

jbalat wrote:
Apr 01 2021 3:14am
Mr Brusa same question to you

It is also possible to hit full pwm when climbing a hill even at low rpm

If field weakening is invoked at this stage could it cause overheating?
Yes it is, because the firmware will try to increase the PWM over 100% to achieve the max motor and max battery currents configured by the user. The best is testing with the feature Field Weakening disabled, and anyway you can keep a look at the PWM value, it should not be over 100.
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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by mbrusa » Apr 01 2021 4:43am

jbalat wrote:
Apr 01 2021 3:14am
Mr Brusa same question to you

It is also possible to hit full pwm when climbing a hill even at low rpm

If field weakening is invoked at this stage could it cause overheating?
I happened to see the pwm at maximum even at low rpm, but only instantaneous when I change gear, never continuously.
I have seen that Field weakening intervenes at a lower cadence when accelerating very fast, however always above 80 rpm.

At low cadence it is Startup boost which increases consumption.
Consider that acceleration increases a lot, not only starting from a standstill, but also when changing gear or slowing down and then picking up speed until you get to work cadence. In this transient phase, the required power can be 2-3 times that without boost.
On mixed routes with continuous gradient changes it can affect your warm-up if you are already pulled as maximum power.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Nfer » Apr 01 2021 6:54am

JohnAnanda wrote:
Apr 01 2021 12:05am
Rydon wrote:
Mar 31 2021 10:15pm
Question for SW102 users: for SW102 initial flash, is sw102-full-0.19.11.hex still the one to use before upgrading to 20.1C over Bluetooth?
I don't know if that's mandatory, but it's the one I used.
I followed the wiki https://github.com/OpenSourceEBike/TSDZ ... -using-SWD

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Apr 01 2021 6:56am

mbrusa wrote:
Apr 01 2021 2:34am
.....
Don't worry Elinx.
This temperature concern is causing some panic......
Thanks you for your answer.
My main concern is in particular any uncontrolled temperature rise.
Battery drain is not a real issue, but high drain could be a sign for that.
But from the information I have gathered, I will probably have to adjust some settings to limit this.

mspider65 indicated (jobike) that there is a 5/4 difference between v0.20.1C and v0.20beta1 (lcd3) v0.20.1B with regard to power/current calculation. (Edit: not v0.20.1B (stock display))
The maximum power and current output should now be decreased (4/5)

Jbalat indicated that the temperature rise/fall limit is 200W.
It would then be logical to limit streetmode to 250W in that case to limit uncontrolled temperatures.

Boost also works with the support with higher cadences ,depending on the "step" setting.
By increasing this "step", the boost time is shorter and has less influence on higer cadences.
Default is 250/25, you hinted for 300/20 (Jobike). Maybe 250/50 is enough for starting of stand.
Otherwise "assist without pedaling" or "hybrid assist mode" could work also fot that.

FW depends on max. PWM, but as you indicated with v0.20.1C not below 80 rpm
In that case, there will be no temperature problem on the flat Dutch roads.
However, it could be possible in mountainous area, with high cadence (> 80rpm) uphill, especially if the maximum power is set too high.

Just out of curiosity:
Which "ideal" (power)assistance level and power/current settings do you currently have found for that balance ?
Last edited by Elinx on Apr 02 2021 1:12pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by mbrusa » Apr 01 2021 12:18pm

Elinx wrote:
Apr 01 2021 6:56am
...
mspider65 indicated (jobike) that there is a 5/4 difference between v0.20.1C and v0.20.1B with regard to power/current calculation
The maximum power and current output should now be decreased (4/5)
...
Nice summary Elinx.
I missed this post from mspider65.
Indeed there is a difference in the current / power calculation between 20.1C and 20beta1 for LCD3 (Not 20.1B).
If the power was read on the LCD3 and not on an external wattmeter, the comparison was made between 550W and 440W, this would explain the big difference.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Apr 01 2021 12:52pm

mbrusa wrote:
Apr 01 2021 12:18pm

... 20beta1 for LCD3 (Not 20.1B).....
I assumed these had the same base and same power-calculation, but I understand this is not the case?

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by mbrusa » Apr 01 2021 1:10pm

Same basis but the parameters for calculating the current had already been changed.

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by Elinx » Apr 01 2021 2:22pm

mbrusa wrote:
Apr 01 2021 1:10pm
Same basis but the parameters for calculating the current had already been changed.
Meaning there are no differences for power/current limits with 0.20.1B and 0.20.1C for stock displays. 8)

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by andrea_104kg » Apr 01 2021 3:31pm

So, first of all thanks to those who will want to read this long text, and thanks also to those who will not read it who will live well anyway :-)
Obviously we are talking about tsdz2 and its limitations. It would be interesting if others put their experiences.
Let's start from the environment in which I live which is one of the factors (together with the weight of the cyclist), which conditions the use of the engine.
I live in the hills, hills more or less 300mt high, with gentle climbs but also points where you tip backwards.
The asphalted roads obviously follow the gentler slopes, rarely exceed 10-12% and to climb from the bottom of the valley to the top of the hill there are 5-6km of uphill.
There is a dense network of dirt roads, which I have not seen in other areas of Italy, a real labyrinth of narrow streets. These allow you to go up from the oval (if you know them obvious) in about half of the km, obviously with much more important slopes than asphalted roads, 15% is normal. There are also roads that go up even more but they are almost all abandoned as the slope was such that it was difficult to keep the bottom good, it is easily washed away by the rain and since there are easier alternatives they are now reduced to paths.
Let's say that it is the paradise of XC understood as a mtb discipline that is not extreme like enduro but more cross county.
I have owned the tsdz2 (a 36v) since spring 2017 and literally hated it at first. I tried everything, even supercharging it with a step up but nothing, the type of delivery literally broke my legs, so much so that I was told that "the torsiometers were not for me".
Then in September 2018 I did 2 things, I bought a turbo Levo, and more or less at the same time I put the Casahino firmware on the tsdz2, in version 06 I think, it didn't even mark the km on the speedometer, it was so rough.
The turbo Levo made me understand that the torsiometers are not all like those of the original tsdz2, because I was fine with that.
The new software made the tsdz2 look exactly like the turbo Levo, just a little less watts of power.
In January 2019 I took a second tsdz2, this time at 48v, because if the 36v was ALMOST like the levo, probably the 48v at least equaled it. And indeed it was, there is very little difference between the two engines.
The leverage has above all an advantage. You can pull a lot more without the engine breaking (not entirely true, given that after a year and 3 months the belt has blown, but the engine practically never exceeds 65 °, not even scrambling it).
Since I had a long series of hubs that i have burned on the streets indicated above (one lasted 3 days :-( but it went like a beast :-)) To avoid problems with the new tsdz2 I put a simple digital thermometer, tied above the metal part of the engine, no digital connections with the control unit, I just needed to see at what temperature the engine was getting.
So the experiments started, and a bit of depression :-(
On the streets reduced to paths I mentioned above, with climbs above 15%, the engine reached 104-105 °, in just one km :-(, outside temperature around 20 °
I took a road that was still open, a normal country road and I chose it as the «test road», it has nothing exceptional, only it is 2.1 km long and it is close to home. It is a "wave" road that rises to 15% for 200mt, then a 500m 3-4% of rise, a rise that reaches 17% for another 5-600mt, another 300mt almost flat and then the last start of 100mt at 6-7%. Nothing extremely exaggerated, it is open to traffic, full of holes but cars (very rare) pass by.
On this road the tsdz2, WITHOUT PAD, reaches 93-95 °
You can understand that both examples are too much for the engine. Also because similar routes I do them EVERY DAY for an hour a day.
So I was pretty depressed.
At the same time I tried to do some sprint on an asphalted road, where the slopes are much milder. Well, if you want to sprint on a 5-6% climb, engine at maximum, it takes less than one km to bring the engine above 100 °.
So with this engine in original condition, only firmware changed, you can't even sprint one kilometer, almost without going on fire :-(
Imagine that I had learned to hear the engine when it went above 80 ° from the noise change :-)
Someone will remember that I put a fan piercing the crankcase, then some copper fins, with huge holes in the crankcase ...
Now maybe you understand why ... what was I doing with an engine that heats up like that? You can limit it to 250w ... Maybe for someone it could be fine, but in my environment it means not to go up. It is also unacceptable ... a simple supermarket hub, if you start at the highest level it goes to 500w and on the road it keeps them very well I assure you ... Then luckily came the idea (not mine) of the thermal pads and it was a turning point.
For my road trips I set the watts at 380 and the engine does not exceed 50 ° even to go up for half an hour continuously. In winter it is difficult even to reach 40 ° ...
In the summer it rises a little more but remains very acceptable.
The test climb of 2.1 km does it at 67 °, the trail does not reach 80 ° ...
Quietly holds 5-600w for ten minutes continuously, without going above 80 °.
I have been going on for more than a year in these conditions which are very good for my paths ....
This is why I get angry when I am told that "the new firmware heats up because it is taken beyond the limits"
but if I have been around for more than a year with the above data! Which limits are exceeded? The limits as you can understand, I studied them very well, on pain of not being able to use the engine.
Unfortunately (this is not meant to be a criticism of mbrusa's work, which I thank very much, but an observation) as soon as I put the new software everything was fine except the temperature ... in the first laps I passed over it but then using it I saw impossible temperatures and I had to say ...
On the test climb it goes to 93 °, with less than 15 ° outside temperature. With the old 67° ....
Mbrusa, I'm not talking little, here we are dealing with the motor with the pads, which means carrying a block of aluminum and iron of 3 kg, in addition it touches an aluminum frame, on the outside to a heat that immediately burns hands.
That's why I raised the alarm. What happens if a user without a pad goes there to the mountains? if with the pads it reaches 90-100 ° what happens without the pad? For me it burns immediately, maybe it doesn't weigh 104kg and it doesn't burn in spring but it catches fire in 2 months.
Attention I do not pretend that these are absolute truths. I can have something wrong in the parameters (but I have not changed anything) the only thing I ask you is to CHECK to avoid possible problems. And if there are no matches the same as mine and I did something wrong, I'm the first to be happy!

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by maximusdm » Apr 02 2021 4:54am

Hello,

Regarding the temperature raise, it is possible that there is one in identical conditions (no boost, same power reading, basically the same). I have to make some good tests to have a clear conclusion. I will also test mspider v7 from temp point of view.
@Andreea You could try the simple mspider v7 if you are curious.

It is possible that newer version from mspider v11 with hall sensor calibration fixes this because optimizes consumption and so the heat as well. But this is not easy to port because it has also a calibration process as well.
Maybe Mbrousa can offer his opinion here if it could help and how hard is to do it.

Regards!

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by JohnAnanda » Apr 02 2021 5:16am

Andrea, could it be that after all theses high temperature adventures you have overheated your motor and partially demagnetised it as indicated in the wiki ? It that case it seems that the motor draws as much electrical power as before but the mechanical power output is much less. I imagine that the power difference is then dissipated as heat.
Maybe you could try with a new motor (not the whole thing, just the inner motor which cost around 50€).

Also, according to the "Hardware temperature control tsdz2" thread, using metal parts under and around the motor seems to be a lot more efficient than thermal pads. I plan to give this method a try before summer..

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Re: TSDZ2 OSF for all displays, VLCD5-VLCD6-XH18, LCD3, 860C-850C-SW102.

Post by andrea_104kg » Apr 02 2021 5:50am

No After i re-flashed 20-1b the temp are retourned normal

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