VESC modularity / standarization?

Jrbe

100 W
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I keep seeing these great VESC designs from different people. Seems like half of the design is "common" VESC brains and the other half is the power section.
1. Would it make sense to split the brain from the muscle in these designs to add flexibility in making and evolving these designs?
This would allow the common parts to be assembled by a board assembly house and the driver section to be hand soldered / fiddled with to keep building the next level or what specs someone needs.
I'd also love to see this with a Lebowski version too.

Part 2 of this splitting it up question is considering a standardized control pinout and connector that could make these units plug and play. The sealed (TE?) connector galp used for BESC G4 could be a great (but maybe a bit pricey) choice to kick this off. Idea is common parts / assemblies / harnesses could bring the costs down and availability / access up.

Part 3. One area I keep seeing repeating is trying to route the gate traces away from this and that. Would it make sense to use short cable harnesses kind of like https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/jst-sales-america-inc/A02SR02SR30K152A/6009377 (or a 3 wire version) twisted then connected to a remote brain board for each drive section? I realize its still required to route to the gate(s). Stacking headers could work but are less flexible.

I think these 3 if agreed upon and done properly could be helpful for the developer and user community here. What do you guys think?
 
I like this in principle.

The reason I suspect it's not been done is that anyone capable of routing a power stage will make light work of routing the logic etc. I have done it for a VESC based controller, and it was... Not hard, just time consuming.

I have a power stage development going now, not really sure what for, but I have... Having a VESC brain to drive it with could be good. Otherwise, I'll just hook it up to my f303 breakout board.

There is a Lebowski brain. I think more than one, and several people have used them, I am strongly considering it.

I would prefer not to use VESC tbh, it's a bit of a shitshow of people yelling "GPL V3" and "THAT'S NOT A VESC(tm)" (despite the trademark having been registered about 3 years after the VESC4.2 was released under creative commons licence and several variants named VESC had been made... by other people). Also, no one except Vedder ever seems to be allowed to add any code, so after years we are all still waiting for Field weakening and MTPA, even though several people have made versions of it...

For connections, I favour IDC ribbons, since they are very easy to get ground returns etc on, are tidy and really easy to make-up. Just poke the ribbon in and squeeze,instead of relentless soldering and poking crimps into tiny holes.

My personal preference is PicoFlex ribbons, since they are easy to use at higher voltages, I think 250V from memory, and can be made up with a micro flathead screwdriver and some enthusiasm, or can be bought premade. Also, through hole and SMT available, and pretty damned cheap.
 
VESC was/is designed for and typically implemented in volume-constrained applications, necessitating integration.

VESCs have scaled up, currently to 16s 300A and 22s 250A continuous.

So there's (currently) no business case for this.
 
This wasn't at all meant as a business case but that should be a side effect. If you could buy a pre made harness pigtail that was color coded, was waterproof, and plugged into a VESC for say $40-60 that was machine terminated I think you could sell a bunch. It's to your point of the torture of crimping and pushing pins in.

We use those ribbon cables at work. We get a bunch of controllers back with bent over blades / terminals from people plugging them in backwards and just pushing harder. I'm not sure how those would do if you tried to twist the cables. The cables we use definitely do not like to be twisted. I might be misunderstanding what you mean though.

This was more for the diy crowd but it would serve the off the shelf crowd as well.
 
Jrbe said:
This wasn't at all meant as a business case but that should be a side effect.
I'm not sure what you mean. Somebody would still have to design, build, and sell the modular VESC (CPU stage, driver stage, whatever) in order for you to buy one.
 
fatty said:
Jrbe said:
This wasn't at all meant as a business case but that should be a side effect.
I'm not sure what you mean. Somebody would still have to design, build, and sell the modular VESC (CPU stage, driver stage, whatever) in order for you to buy one.
Or I make one / spin someone's design this way and share it all as others have done. Or others see the benefit and are interested in their own modular design.

I'm asking these questions to see if people are interested in this direction. Is it worth pursuing for me or others working on these - considering a modular design?
Some simple standards to reference could make these different designs / pieces plug and play. It does not mean they can't be integrated, the opposite is my goal of this thread.

I'm not proposing rules or restrictions. This would be a plug and play blueprint / reference.
 
At least one VESC based project has done something like this, it's specifically aimed at IGBT modules though and I've no idea how applicable it would be to other types of power stage. It's using an FPGA for some of the logic, first time I've seen that (I could easily have missed others) and a huge step forward imo. IGBTs are also a big step forward imo, seriously big power at the lowest kw/$ I've seen and OEMs seem to be going the same way judging by the voltages they're using.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=89056
 
stan.distortion said:
At least one VESC based project has done something like this, it's specifically aimed at IGBT modules though and I've no idea how applicable it would be to other types of power stage. It's using an FPGA for some of the logic, first time I've seen that (I could easily have missed others) and a huge step forward imo. IGBTs are also a big step forward imo, seriously big power at the lowest kw/$ I've seen and OEMs seem to be going the same way judging by the voltages they're using.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=89056
Unfortunately the fpga code and Gerber/layout is not part of the public release afaik making it of limited use to the public.

Jrbe said:
fatty said:
Jrbe said:
This wasn't at all meant as a business case but that should be a side effect.
I'm not sure what you mean. Somebody would still have to design, build, and sell the modular VESC (CPU stage, driver stage, whatever) in order for you to buy one.
Or I make one / spin someone's design this way and share it all as others have done. Or others see the benefit and are interested in their own modular design.

I'm asking these questions to see if people are interested in this direction. Is it worth pursuing for me or others working on these - considering a modular design?
Some simple standards to reference could make these different designs / pieces plug and play. It does not mean they can't be integrated, the opposite is my goal of this thread.

I'm not proposing rules or restrictions. This would be a plug and play blueprint / reference.
If you do it fast enough, it might save me laying out a VESC control board myself for my through hole test stage. Interested. Can help review etc.

Though tbh, a working robust buyable at sensible price is worth more to me than an open source thing... If i have to build it myself i might as well lay it out myself.
 
mxlemming, did you have a housing in mind for your power stage?
Any special requirements / requests?
I'm not sure how much time I can dedicate to this currently. I'm going to jump in tonight to see how lost I am.

I'm reaching out to galp in a pm to see if he's ok with me forking his G4 design or at least the connector / pin out. I do not think he's on here much.

My plan was to do the design to order the brain from JLC as turn key as possible (assembled /soldered.) There will likely be connectors to solder on and maybe some smd components. There are lots of low / 0 inventory issues currently, kind of a tough time to do a design.
 
I just looked up the STM32F405RGT. JLC does not stock it but LCSC does. 0 stock in the USA at common distributors. Anyone that seems to have them are charging $30+ each currently.
I'm in no real rush to do this. I am putting a design on hold until the chip shortages settle down.

Galp has not released his G4 design that I've seen, a derp on my part..I'd still like to use the / a similar connector as he did in G4.

I'm still interested in setting up some ground work for modular designs if anyone else is.
 
Best bet might be too imitate the bobc Lebowski pinout. I'd love to have a direct comparison between the two firmwares. I've still failed to find the bobc board design files though. I'm sure they're open source but :?

I have no special requests other than small. Like 50mmx30mm and single sided kind of size. My entire thing will live in a3d print box with a metal heatsink base so shape can be anything, but i don't want enormous wire looms and huge connectors with massive clamps and whatnot.

Regarding the MCU apocalypse, I'm considering the gd32f405rg to replace the stm. Pin out and register compatible... If ST are going to screw us all by shutting their factories, well... I guess the Chinese clones get a say.

Edit: the big blue connector on the besc G4 looks like it's bigger than most of my entire boards. Not sure what it is, but i don't like it one bit.
 
The "big blue connector" is a TE Ampseal connector. Very, very common in the automotive world, but at 5+ amps per pin, it is probably much more connector than you need or will want to fit. Ebikes have very different concepts of size compared to the car and truck components that these connectors usually go on.
 
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/automotive-connectors/7266963/

Wow. I have literally made entire ESCs - control, power stage and all - smaller than that, including the connectors. It's the size of about 2x18650 cells, which is about 20Wh, or an extra 1-2km on an ebike/eskate.

Let's not use that! I think galp was planning on mounting this to a quadbike.
 
Mxlemming, the BobC / kiwifiat / whereswally? SMD Lebowski board files should be at this link, https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=87104&p=1596824&hilit=Bobc+Lebowski#p1598010
It's a txt file you download and rename to zip.
No mounting holes in that design.

I did not see that the connector galp used was that big, my sense of scale was off. Is a sealed connector of any value to any of you?

I agree, It would be great to have both VESC and Lebowski brains with the same pinout / connectors to be able to swap / compare.
 
Personally, I'd say sealed connector only really useful for external connections, definitely not for the power stage link.

I'd be inclined to waterproof by pushing a wire through a slightly too small hole, but I'm not the best at this. I tend to be a bit hacky with things like this, I only really deal with the "hard" bits and ignore the boring time consuming bits/add electrical tape to taste.

Kiwifiat also sent me that link in a pm. I'd scrolled past it about 10 times not thinking a .txt file was of any interest. Looking for github links or zip files.

Read my MESC thread, especially the early posts, loads of people had loads of opinions on connectors etc.
 
I agree, only makes sense for the sealed connector for external connections.

I read what I think was the thread you meant. The ebikes connector linked there was kind of surprising. The confusion of having the same connector, what goes where, if they are plugged in the wrong spot does it blow up? The DF62W connectors mentioned there seem like they could be a good option for the externals. I don't really see how they seal the header to a case though.
To be fair I do not have any ebike experience. I want to use these for a few different purposes. I'm not sure if the different ebike sensors have standardized connectors or not.

TE makes some smaller sealed connectors, I was thinking something like 776267-1
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/1-776276-1/1893362
Could be a good option for an all in one external connector harness.

For internal connections I think standard through hole footprints would leave the door open to a bunch of options.
 
I dunno dude. That connector is still basically as big as the entire BobC board... 40mmx30mm. BobC board is 35*60.

Could make a connector breakout board? :lol:

I hate connectors. Honestly, they are the bain of my life. Everyone uses different ones, and Vesc decided to standardize on JST PH because ugh.

Somehow all motor halls seem to come with a 6 way JST PH.

Maybe through hole 2.54 pitch is the best. I don't know.
 
mxlemming said:
Could make a connector breakout board? :lol:

Maybe through hole 2.54 pitch is the best. I don't know.

The PCB-mount connectors are the environmental weakness of VESC though.
If not providing a complete case, I'd much prefer bare solder pads so I could wire up a proper sealed receptacle on a sealed case.

For the connectors themselves, I much prefer circular connectors. Circular jam-nut receptacles are fast and easy to mount; circular plugs are nicer with proper molded multi-conductor cable than rectangular connectors, and available in a variety of (blind) locking styles.

My current favorite is the Souriau UTGX series for the quick bayonet audible "click" and tactile feel.
And of course, mountable Anderson SB for power.
 
fatty said:
mxlemming said:
Could make a connector breakout board? :lol:

Maybe through hole 2.54 pitch is the best. I don't know.

The PCB-mount connectors are the environmental weakness of VESC though.
If not providing a complete case, I'd much prefer bare solder pads so I could wire up a proper sealed receptacle on a sealed case.

For the connectors themselves, I much prefer circular connectors. Circular jam-nut receptacles are fast and easy to mount; circular plugs are nicer with proper molded multi-conductor cable than rectangular connectors, and available in a variety of (blind) locking styles.

My current favorite is the Souriau UTGX series for the quick bayonet audible "click" and tactile feel.
And of course, mountable Anderson SB for power.

Solder pads of what nature exactly?

I am thinking some kind of solder pad is optimal, then we can have whatever panel mount connectors take our fancy.

I use XT60, XT90 for DC power and MT60 for 3 phase. Probably on smaller currents than you? Think I might start using the Higo Julet connectors. I need to start taking the waterproofing a bit more seriously; I think my last board failure was just because it was speckled with mud and dirt. I soaked it in IPA and it started working again.
 
mxlemming said:
Solder pads of what nature exactly?

I am thinking some kind of solder pad is optimal, then we can have whatever panel mount connectors take our fancy.
Good question -- whatever's solder-able for the expected wire size, I guess? Through-hole for power.
I've only soldered wire to pads on existing boards --haven't done any layout-- so I'm not sure what the standards are. I just figured "nothing" is easiest to layout, cheapest and easiest to source, haha.
But solder cup terminals would obviously be better.

mxlemming said:
I use XT60, XT90 for DC power and MT60 for 3 phase. Probably on smaller currents than you?
Yeah, I need 150+A battery and 250-400A phase.
If you like anti-spark XTs, check out Dongguan QiangShui QS8.
And for 3 phase, Anderson SB175. I wish everyone would standardize on Anderson SB for power (they're ubiquitous in racing): genderless housings and silver-plated pins available in broad range of wire sizes, and the ability to mount them and the accessories (the "ecosystem") make them the best option in their current ranges.
 

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fatty said:
Yeah, I need 150+A battery and 250-400A phase.
If you like anti-spark XTs, check out Dongguan QiangShui QS8.
And for 3 phase, Anderson SB175. I wish everyone would standardize on Anderson SB for power (they're ubiquitous in racing): genderless housings and silver-plated pins available in broad range of wire sizes, and the ability to mount them and the accessories (the "ecosystem") make them the best option in their current ranges.

Those SB175 3 phase things are actually bigger than my MESC control board, including the capacitors and heatsink. Like... really. MESC is 66x84x25, those connectors are 70x80x25.

MESC is currently pushing 80A phase and... well the BMS cuts out occasionally at something between 40 and 120A... it's this: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Daly-18650-li-ion-battery-bms_62422440179.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.normal_offer.d_image.44e77c97FGPhBr BMS is not that great, doesn't seem to be able to balance my battery very well, but at least it hasn't caught fire.

I vote for the "nothing." approach, 2.5mm pitch "nothing", whether through hole or pad.

Through hole like the BobC board would make for easy swap in-out.
 
mxlemming said:
MESC is currently pushing 80A phase and... well the BMS cuts out occasionally at something between 40 and 120A...
:lol:
I've given up on BMSs for just that reason.

mxlemming said:
I vote for the "nothing." approach, 2.5mm pitch "nothing", whether through hole or pad.

Through hole like the BobC board would make for easy swap in-out.
:thumb:
Solder cups are available in 0.1" pitch headers
 
2.54mm / .100" pitch are common, have solder cup, screw terminal, screwless terminals, headers, and wire to board connectors. Plenty of decent options there for internal stuff.

For the external stuff that's where I see this waterproofing falling apart. A lot of these sealed connectors need to be potted to be sealed, not very take it apart friendly. These large to some connectors should be easy to seal.

My thinking is a small connector brain you guys can stuff in a mint tin :p and a slightly larger one that can get a sealed external connector.

For the high current / voltage I do like the screw blocks galp used on G1 but I imagine they are a pita to work with (the press block he made is a non starter for most.) They do make a solder version that's similar.
The through hole like an erni 225757 (or even a pc board pem nut) could work well with bus bars if it's not overtightened. Could do o-rings or rubber grommets in the housing with a spacer tube to seal the battery and motor connections.
 
Jlcpcb have the f405 back, and I think so the other bits, so get on this asap and order some! I'll take one.
 
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