Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Electric Motors and Controllers
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Burtie
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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Burtie » Mar 28, 2010 5:47 am

I know that people, myself included, have been having a some problems using external halls lately.

From the Hyperion hall sensor thread:-
fitek wrote:
...the external mounting works. Motor runs fine at low speed. The system does cut out at high throttle. You have to put the throttle back down to zero and then bring it back up..
gwhy! is experiencing similar problems, using 6 FET keywin controllers.

I have seen this problem using a 12 FET keywin controller on my Stinky, but only when drawing battery current greater than 80 amps.
Also, when I changed to use the internal hall sensors, the problem went away.

I am not sure what causes the controller to cut out like this, but I have a hunch it is to do with noise, (or spurious spikes) on the hall sensor inputs to the controller.
Here are a couple of ideas:

1) It may be that noise is being induced in the sensor wires when they run too close to the phase wires or the battery wires.
2) It may be that the hall sensors are being triggered at the wrong time by the magnetic field generated by the stator currents.


1) is easy to fix by re-routing or screening the sensor wires.
2) is perhaps not quite so easy. The sensors would need to be moved to a position that was less affected by the stator field, but still maintain the correct timing.
It may turn out that the 17.14 degree spacing is more susceptable to stator fields, because the sensors are positioned more in line with the poles of the stator.

Any theories or empirical findings gratefuly received.

Burtie
Last edited by Burtie on Mar 29, 2010 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by AussieJester » Mar 28, 2010 6:08 am

Burtie wrote:
Also, when I changed to use the internal hall sensors, the problem went away.
Burtie, when mounting the halls internally is the spacing still 17.4 degrees apart or does it change slightly?
I think this might be what i shall have to do if there is issues with the external mounting?

KiM

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Mar 28, 2010 8:50 am

I tried lots of different combinations ( spacings and positions from 15.5 degrees upto 18.5 degrees) for the external halls over the last couple of days and this made no difference and all the signals/switching was as clean as can be ( all the spacings worked on my old 6fet just the efficiency went out of the window unless you used 17.1'ish degrees ), just to recap on my situation older 6fet works 100%, new 12 fet works 100%, new modded 6fet has problems and a new out the box virgin 6fet also has problems ( these were test on 2 different motors with external halls fitted ). Carried out lots of test ( don't appear to be anything funky going on on the 12v and 5v lines ). its not the lvc cutting in and I also swapped out throttle. Matt from another thread discovered that his controller works with a lower voltage 22.2v 100% so I also tried this and yes the 6fets work ok on 22.2v 100%, So now it looks like if its something to do with the 12/5v lines after all. I also tried adding more caps this also made no difference. You can also get these symptoms if the timing is out ( motor cutting out as you wind on the throt ).

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Mar 28, 2010 8:53 am

AussieJester wrote:
Burtie wrote:
Also, when I changed to use the internal hall sensors, the problem went away.
Burtie, when mounting the halls internally is the spacing still 17.4 degrees apart or does it change slightly?
I think this might be what i shall have to do if there is issues with the external mounting?

KiM
Hi KiM,
If you fit the halls inside the motor then the only real option is to go to 120 degree ( inbewteen the stator slots )

Edit: Just found some pictures of when I fitted halls into the big motor that I have, I have since reverted back to external fitting . I think I have posed these somewhere else aswell but this thread is the best one to post in.
hall sensors.jpg
hall sensors.jpg (60.58 KiB) Viewed 1976 times
hall sensor glued in slot.jpg
hall sensor glued in slot.jpg (132.76 KiB) Viewed 1976 times
hall wires brought out.jpg
hall wires brought out.jpg (143.01 KiB) Viewed 1976 times
hall wire grouping.jpg
hall wire grouping.jpg (134.7 KiB) Viewed 1976 times
hall sensors fitted complete.jpg
hall sensors fitted complete.jpg (149.28 KiB) Viewed 1976 times

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 28, 2010 1:12 pm

You did a great job Gwhy :)


Did you decide to go back to externals because it enabled the timing adjustment?
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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Mar 28, 2010 1:31 pm

Hi Luke,
Yes timing was one reason for going back to external, But the main reason was it is a lot easier to swap out a external hall setup should there be a problem with any of the hall sensors.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by AussieJester » Mar 28, 2010 4:26 pm

Thanks Gwhy i assumed as much after i posted the question :-S What is the 'green'
compound you have used to hold the Halls in place Burtie ? I had thought of using
silicone sealant to hold the halls if i went with the internal setup over the external
I hear it is fine with the heat and would also be easy to 'dig out' the hall sensor if it
shat itself... I wish HobbyCity would get the Turnigys in stock i want to have two here when
i fit the halls rather than play with my only one and fuckz it somehow, i can't wait much longer
though will be biting the bullet this week when the 12 fet controller Mr Lyen sent me arrives.

Thanks again Gwhy

KiM

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Mar 28, 2010 4:57 pm

AussieJester wrote:Thanks Gwhy i assumed as much after i posted the question :-S What is the 'green'
compound you have used to hold the Halls in place Burtie ? I had thought of using
silicone sealant to hold the halls if i went with the internal setup over the external
I hear it is fine with the heat and would also be easy to 'dig out' the hall sensor if it
shat itself... I wish HobbyCity would get the Turnigys in stock i want to have two here when
i fit the halls rather than play with my only one and fuckz it somehow, i can't wait much longer
though will be biting the bullet this week when the 12 fet controller Mr Lyen sent me arrives.

Thanks again Gwhy

KiM
Hi KiM,
This was my motor that I modded , I think Burtie also posted some pics in another thread of his modded motor( I dont know what Burtie used to stick his in Im sure he will chip in and tell you), I used something called chemical metal (plastic padding). silicone may be a bit tricky as it takes quite a while to set and the halls just what to play silly buggers and twist in the slot.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by AussieJester » Mar 28, 2010 5:55 pm

gwhy! wrote:This was my motor that I modded ,
Appologies mate i meant to change the name i initially had Burties name in place of all yours in above posted i incorrectly
thought Burtie replied my mistake. I wanted to use something that will allow easy removal of any halls that 'go south'
as you even mention the external halls you do is for both timing and ease of removal purposes. What i will likely
do is try the external mount as Burtie has sent me a hall bracket for the outrunner, if this works (or i can
even get it to work) and it runs fine i will likely stick with this method IF it doesn't however i wanted a
alternative setup, i do actually prefer the internals for its 'stealth' over the more 'messy' external setup.
I think what i will end up doing if the external is successful is making a carbon fiber OR polished aluminium
hall bracket so it 'matches' the rest of the bike, Burties mount will be used initially though and then as a template
if i make another ;-)

KiM

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Burtie » Mar 29, 2010 2:48 am

KiM,
I used epoxy to glue in the halls. Hope I never have to remove them!

Burtie

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by patrickza » Mar 29, 2010 9:46 am

AussieJester wrote:Thanks Gwhy i assumed as much after i posted the question :-S What is the 'green'
compound you have used to hold the Halls in place Burtie ? I had thought of using
silicone sealant to hold the halls if i went with the internal setup over the external
I hear it is fine with the heat and would also be easy to 'dig out' the hall sensor if it
shat itself... I wish HobbyCity would get the Turnigys in stock i want to have two here when
i fit the halls rather than play with my only one and fuckz it somehow, i can't wait much longer
though will be biting the bullet this week when the 12 fet controller Mr Lyen sent me arrives.

Thanks again Gwhy

KiM
Kim the turnigys are back in stock, there are 16 of the 130s in stock at the moment. I had an order outstanding for months, and decided to cancel and re-order two weeks ago. Cancelled it, but paypal wouldn't let my payment go through on my credit card so I had to e-cheque it. Just after I did that I saw them come back in stock but by the time it cleared they were all sold out!

Edit: only 12 left, and 4 of the 180's so if you want one grab it fast!

To all the others, is there any reason why silicon wouldn't work, I really don't feel like epoxying my motor if I don't have to! If the movement is the only problem I'm sure I could find a way to keep them still enough?
Greyb.org, Cromotor, Headway 83.2v 20AH, Lyen 18 fet: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=45514
Kona Kahuna, x5305, Headway 76.8v 10AH, Crystalyte 72v48A: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=10256
Bladez Scoot, 450W motor putting out 3kW, Headway 38.4v 10AH, Lyen special controller: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 35&t=25872

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Mar 29, 2010 11:58 am

patrickza wrote:
AussieJester wrote:Thanks Gwhy i assumed as much after i posted the question :-S What is the 'green'
compound you have used to hold the Halls in place Burtie ? I had thought of using
silicone sealant to hold the halls if i went with the internal setup over the external
I hear it is fine with the heat and would also be easy to 'dig out' the hall sensor if it
shat itself... I wish HobbyCity would get the Turnigys in stock i want to have two here when
i fit the halls rather than play with my only one and fuckz it somehow, i can't wait much longer
though will be biting the bullet this week when the 12 fet controller Mr Lyen sent me arrives.

Thanks again Gwhy

KiM
Kim the turnigys are back in stock, there are 16 of the 130s in stock at the moment. I had an order outstanding for months, and decided to cancel and re-order two weeks ago. Cancelled it, but paypal wouldn't let my payment go through on my credit card so I had to e-cheque it. Just after I did that I saw them come back in stock but by the time it cleared they were all sold out!

Edit: only 12 left, and 4 of the 180's so if you want one grab it fast!

To all the others, is there any reason why silicon wouldn't work, I really don't feel like epoxying my motor if I don't have to! If the movement is the only problem I'm sure I could find a way to keep them still enough?
I think silicone would be ok temp wise it will be just a issue of keeping the halls still while it sets. if you use epoxy just use the smallest amount to keep the halls and the wire in place ( It will not be good if a hall comes loose with something that is spinning around that fast , it will prob do some damage )

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by AussieJester » Mar 29, 2010 5:20 pm

patrickza wrote:
Kim the turnigys are back in stock
Yes i recieved the stock alert notification...when i checked they were both at -1 hahaha I need to get some $$$
into my paypal account and/or simply order one and have it on backorder by the time it takes to paypal money they are sold out :-(

KiM

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Mar 30, 2010 4:32 pm

Burtie wrote:I know that people, myself included, have been having a some problems using external halls lately.

From the Hyperion hall sensor thread:-
fitek wrote:
...the external mounting works. Motor runs fine at low speed. The system does cut out at high throttle. You have to put the throttle back down to zero and then bring it back up..
gwhy! is experiencing similar problems, using 6 FET keywin controllers.

I have seen this problem using a 12 FET keywin controller on my Stinky, but only when drawing battery current greater than 80 amps.
Also, when I changed to use the internal hall sensors, the problem went away.

I am not sure what causes the controller to cut out like this, but I have a hunch it is to do with noise, (or spurious spikes) on the hall sensor inputs to the controller.
Here are a couple of ideas:

1) It may be that noise is being induced in the sensor wires when they run too close to the phase wires or the battery wires.
2) It may be that the hall sensors are being triggered at the wrong time by the magnetic field generated by the stator currents.


1) is easy to fix by re-routing or screening the sensor wires.
2) is perhaps not quite so easy. The sensors would need to be moved to a position that was less affected by the stator field, but still maintain the correct timing.
It may turn out that the 17.14 degree spacing is more susceptable to stator fields, because the sensors are positioned more in line with the poles of the stator.

Any theories or empirical findings gratefuly received.

Burtie
We have had a brake through on this problem show in this thread 'Infineon Controller cutting out question' https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =2&t=16910

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Apr 02, 2010 1:56 pm

just thought I would show the pcbs that I have just made ready to be potted and fitted to two of my motors. When I am back in work I will upload the artwork should anyone wish to make them.
Hall pcb_64mm_front.jpg
Hall pcb_64mm_front.jpg (92.86 KiB) Viewed 1795 times
hall pcb_64mm_back.jpg
hall pcb_64mm_back.jpg (9.3 KiB) Viewed 1795 times
Hall pcb_80mm_front.jpg
Hall pcb_80mm_front.jpg (79.2 KiB) Viewed 1795 times

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by AussieJester » Apr 02, 2010 7:39 pm

gwhy! wrote:just thought I would show the pcbs that I have just made ready to be potted and fitted to two of my motors. When I am back in work I will upload the artwork should anyone wish to make them.
Hall pcb_64mm_front.jpg
hall pcb_64mm_back.jpg
Hall pcb_80mm_front.jpg

Nice work GWhy... the elongated holes are so you can adjust the plates positioning i gather.

KiM

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Apr 03, 2010 2:33 am

Yes, KiM.
When I have one mounted I will post some pics.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by AussieJester » Apr 03, 2010 2:47 am

gwhy! wrote:Yes, KiM.
When I have one mounted I will post some pics.
Cheers mate...forgot to ask also, which motor is this
setup destined for?

KiM

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Apr 03, 2010 3:01 am

AussieJester wrote:
gwhy! wrote:Yes, KiM.
When I have one mounted I will post some pics.
Cheers mate...forgot to ask also, which motor is this
setup destined for?

KiM
I have one of the large Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv (80mm can) that one set will used on, But my motors of choice is the smaller TGY AerodriveXp SK Series 63-74 170Kv (64mm can)( I like them so much I have 2 8) ), These already have halls fitted but the spacing of the halls isnt quite 100% ( But they do both work really well ) so I thought make it 100% correct and it will improve efficency a bit.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Burtie » Apr 03, 2010 3:11 am

gwhy,
This is a pretty neat looking solution for holding the sensors that simplifies the wiring nicely too.
I am keen to see how you will mount the pcb to the motor.

Great work!
Burtie

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Apr 04, 2010 10:28 am

Picture's :D
Burtie,
This is how I intend to mount them. The pcb can be made not so tall but a bit longer so the adjusting slots can go either side of the halls. The pcbs will be potted soon which should keep all the elements out of the sensors. I will post up a picture when it is potted.
Large motor mount with halls.jpg
Large motor mount with halls.jpg (61.7 KiB) Viewed 1999 times
Large motor mount with halls gen2.jpg
Large motor mount with halls gen2.jpg (62.62 KiB) Viewed 1999 times
Large motor mount with halls size.jpg
Large motor mount with halls size.jpg (53.02 KiB) Viewed 1999 times
Large motor mount with halls size2.jpg
Large motor mount with halls size2.jpg (47.41 KiB) Viewed 1999 times
Sorry for the blurriness of the pics, I must sort out a better camera phone.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by dontsendbubbamail » Apr 04, 2010 8:08 pm

Thought I would post how I mounted my hall effects along with the other methods in this thread. This is just three 1/2" plywood rings with a 1/4" cover ring.

Bubba
file1.jpeg
Two rings glued together. Top ring has 1/8" grove for wiring. This will be covered with a 1/4" ring. Notches were included for 60 or 120 deg spacing.
file1.jpeg (195.66 KiB) Viewed 2032 times
file2.jpeg
Side view of two rings glued together.
file2.jpeg (134.37 KiB) Viewed 2029 times
file3.jpeg
Gluing hall effects.
file3.jpeg (158.26 KiB) Viewed 2032 times
file4.jpeg
Hall effects glued in place with 120 deg spacing, wired up, and ready for the cover ring.
file4.jpeg (239.5 KiB) Viewed 2029 times
file5.jpeg
Cover ring glued in place
file5.jpeg (112.36 KiB) Viewed 2029 times
file6.jpeg
Bottom ring of the previous rings slip into this ring.
file6.jpeg (111.14 KiB) Viewed 1978 times
file7.jpeg
file7.jpeg (116.2 KiB) Viewed 1978 times
Attachments
file8.jpeg
Z sheet metal tabs keep thing together. I adjust the rings to the correct position and then use a dab of silicon to keep things from shifting.
file8.jpeg (129.56 KiB) Viewed 1978 times

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Apr 07, 2010 5:26 am

Hall sensor pcb artwork as promised. Its not the neatest artwork but it works :lol:
pcb_halls_.cad- CadStd.pdf
(60.06 KiB) Downloaded 243 times

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Apr 08, 2010 6:24 pm

Some pics of hall sensors 'now potted' :D
halls potted.jpg
64mm potted sensor
halls potted.jpg (59.99 KiB) Viewed 1916 times
halls potted fitted.jpg
80mm potted fitted sensor
halls potted fitted.jpg (85.49 KiB) Viewed 1916 times
Attachments
halls potted fitted1.jpg
80mm potted fitted sensor
halls potted fitted1.jpg (62.37 KiB) Viewed 1916 times

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Apr 19, 2010 4:35 pm

I just fitted one of these to smaller motor ( 64mm can ) and its made quite a difference, my previous hall sensors where slightly of with spacing but I could get my motor to a unloaded current of about 2.5A @48v and on the bike it worked well. But know .. what a difference unloaded current of 2A @48v and the starting torque has gone through the roof Im well chuffed :D

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