Adding hall sensors to outrunners

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Jan 24, 2013 4:06 pm

Thud wrote:you had a false positive.
& now you have a good set up.
Yep, false positive.... Glad you now have it sorted.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by NickB » Jan 25, 2013 7:25 am

Did a search for false positive and indeed found similar problems.
Thanks a lot for the help!

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Thad » Feb 23, 2013 1:50 pm

Hey it's a nice Forum here!

I searched for advice for positioning the hall sensors and found this thread.
I gave up trying with a sensorless setup for a real sized kart with the Hobbyking BLDC motor 80-100B with 130kv. - Because of the poor starting behaviour.
I bought a sensored controller from alien power system with a matching external hall-mount and started trying.
My lipo got very warm, but I did not get a working combination.

Now I lent a Scope and want to scope out the right combination.
But there are unanswered questions:
I have to connect one channel between hall sensors output and ground.
And the second channel between two phases of the motor Is it right?
When I got the correct picture like the posted ones, which of the two phases i have to mark as corresponding to the hall sensor of channel one?

regards
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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Nusse » Feb 23, 2013 3:28 pm

Maybe not the right place for this kind of information? Nice looking "Hall Effect Sensor Board" http://e0designs.com/products/hall-effect-sensor-board/

50mm: Generic “50xx” outrunners
59mm: Hobbyking “SK3-63″ series
63mm: “C” style, “N” style, “G” style, “SK” style 63mm series
80mm: “C” style 80mm series

In the Kit

All of the Hall Effect Sensor Board kits come with the following:

14-pole PCB with 120° adjustment slots
4x ATS177-B-A type low-hysteresis digital latch Hall Effect sensors
(3 for use, 1 for a spare)
Image
Adaptor: Hall Effect Sensor Adapter: http://e0designs.com/products/hall-effe ... r-adapter/

...Finding Motor Phase-Sensor Combinations: http://e0designs.com/documentation/find ... binations/

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by eDahon » Oct 04, 2013 1:23 pm

So if the sensors are placed at 120 degrees internally on a delta wound motor an i reterminate the motor in wye without changing the hall sensor position? Or will the timining be off in wye configuration?

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Oct 04, 2013 3:31 pm

eDahon wrote:So if the sensors are placed at 120 degrees internally on a delta wound motor an i reterminate the motor in wye without changing the hall sensor position? Or will the timining be off in wye configuration?
Yes the timing will be off, This is the major problem with fitting the halls internally into the slots even with a Delta wound motor its still will not be 100% correct for the timing .

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by eDahon » Oct 04, 2013 11:06 pm

ok and thanks. I think you are the only one that replies to my posts. :lol: I did manage to get the internal halls to work. Felt really good. In one direction the timing seemed to be too advanced. Fortunately, when I switched the wired around in the direction I needed it to spin it ran really well. The no load current was same as my external hall setup. So how would I get position the halls if I switched to a wye termination? Thanks again!

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Oct 05, 2013 4:37 am

I dont know how halls can be setup internally with the correct timing for a wye wound motor, but if using external then the sensors need to be shifted 10-15degrees ( this is approx as I have never measured the exact measurement ) the problem with this is that it is also dependent what direction you what the motor to spin in so you have a potential 20-30degrees total shift of position to get the timing spot on. Im not sure if the Burtie TA can adjust all this electronically ( I do have one, but I still havent got round to trying it out ).

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by marcexec » Nov 06, 2013 3:48 pm

Seems to work fine on mine (see my thread, currenly dialing the 80-100 in).
Have internal halls and the motor runs so much smoother once the 120° fixed spacing kicks in.
Dynamic advance gives another 1k rpm.

Semi-on-topic question:
given the same amount of batteries, 130kv (don't want to rewind yet) and saturation at about 8.5k rpm, would you rather go for 60V or 84V (limiting the speed in the controller)
(I can handle the gearing :D )
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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Nov 06, 2013 5:21 pm

marcexec wrote:Seems to work fine on mine (see my thread, currenly dialing the 80-100 in).
Have internal halls and the motor runs so much smoother once the 120° fixed spacing kicks in.
Dynamic advance gives another 1k rpm.

Semi-on-topic question:
given the same amount of batteries, 130kv (don't want to rewind yet) and saturation at about 8.5k rpm, would you rather go for 60V or 84V (limiting the speed in the controller)
(I can handle the gearing :D )
Avoid limiting the speed via the controller as this will make the controller run so much hotter at max speed, try and set it up so max throttle is max speed.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Beuhji » Nov 10, 2013 10:24 am

Hello guys !

Thank you for this prolific topic, there is so many interesting experiences in !

But now I need your help about the original winding scheme of a 80-100. Is there some tips to fit the sensors at the right place whithout any idea where the windings bengins and where it ends ? I have looked at my motor during 1 week and no way to identify any pair of poles ...

This is a DLRK delta :
Image

This is a Turnigy C80-100 :
Image

Another question is why it is not possible to place sensors at 60° (using the opposite poles) ?

Thanks
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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Burtie » Nov 10, 2013 3:52 pm

I suspect you probably already saw this part of the thread where Biff explains which set of slots to install the halls, but just in-case:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 00#p359008

You can probably deduce which stator teeth belong to which phase, by passing a DC current through one phase and testing the resultant magnetic field from each tooth using a magnetic compass.



60 degree spacing is possible, if you invert the middle hall sensor, OR set your controller to 60 degree compatible mode.
Burtie

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Beuhji » Nov 11, 2013 7:39 am

Thank you for your reply Burtie !

But all phases are connected to each others, do you think I will get a readable result anyway with a compass ?
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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Burtie » Nov 13, 2013 11:26 am

It might not be very easy, because as you go round, the stator teeth will all show alternate N and S poles,

Just the pair you are connected directly across will have a field that is twice as strong as the others (because it will be flowing twice the current)

If you can identify this pair, you have won!

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Beuhji » Nov 14, 2013 1:06 pm

Since I've read that sensors must be placed in between two teeth of the same pole I'm obsessed with that but I've forgotten the reason ... finally we are just interested by magnets :?: :|
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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Nov 16, 2013 8:20 am

a good alternative hall sensor to the ss41a ( or any hall used in a motor )

SS460S SENSOR , They are a fair bit cheaper than the 41's ..

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Arlo1 » Nov 16, 2013 10:21 am

gwhy! wrote:a good alternative hall sensor to the ss41a ( or any hall used in a motor )

SS460S SENSOR , They are a fair bit cheaper than the 41's ..
I did not find the ss41a but found ss41 and some others the ss41 is $2.20 and others are priced similarly
The ss460s is $1.31 each but I didn't think $3.00 would be a big deal per motor.... :)

These things just get chucked on my orders once in a while because they are good to have in stock and there is nothing more frustrating than not having my motor running for a few days because $6.60 worth of ss41 sensors have failed during testing.....
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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Nov 16, 2013 11:18 am

Arlo1 wrote:
gwhy! wrote:a good alternative hall sensor to the ss41a ( or any hall used in a motor )

SS460S SENSOR , They are a fair bit cheaper than the 41's ..
I did not find the ss41a but found ss41 and some others the ss41 is $2.20 and others are priced similarly
The ss460s is $1.31 each but I didn't think $3.00 would be a big deal per motor.... :)

These things just get chucked on my orders once in a while because they are good to have in stock and there is nothing more frustrating than not having my motor running for a few days because $6.60 worth of ss41 sensors have failed during testing.....
http://www.newark.com/honeywell-s-c/ss4 ... Ntt=ss460s

$0.69 each

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by chuttney1 » Dec 04, 2013 12:19 am

I have an issue with the wiring. I have a Hobbywing ESC whose connector for sensors on the ESC board has 6 pins. One pin for the positive and one for the negative. This leaves the other four pins which three would have been used and one not used. Does it matter if all four pins must be use beside the ones for positive and the negative?

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Jan 20, 2014 5:57 pm

Cheap external hall sensors for 80mm outrunners.... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 31&t=36149

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by dgrdan93 » Feb 19, 2014 4:06 am

Just a couple of questions I hope someone here can answer

Recently I've been testing outrunners on a greentime 15 fet sensored/sensorless controller from aliexpress.com. I found that these work fine sensorless with a turnigy 8085 170kv at 6s to 8s lipo, but on 12s lipo it struggles to start up and easily loses sync under small load anywhere up to around 3000 rpm. I can understand the purpose of hall sensors during start up but at 3000rpm I would assume there is enough back emf so I don't understand why this is happening.
Should hall sensors eliminate this problem?
I have installed sensors to my motor but my controller only seems to use the sensors for a short period during start up then switches to sensorless mode once the motor is running, so I can't find out how the motor would behave with a sensored controller at higher rpm.

Also, do sensored controllers typically have higher erpm limits than sensorless ones?
The greentime controllers are only capable of 40k erpm which isn't quite enough for 12s lipo.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Feb 19, 2014 7:52 am

dgrdan93 wrote:Just a couple of questions I hope someone here can answer

Recently I've been testing outrunners on a greentime 15 fet sensored/sensorless controller from aliexpress.com. I found that these work fine sensorless with a turnigy 8085 170kv at 6s to 8s lipo, but on 12s lipo it struggles to start up and easily loses sync under small load anywhere up to around 3000 rpm. I can understand the purpose of hall sensors during start up but at 3000rpm I would assume there is enough back emf so I don't understand why this is happening.
Should hall sensors eliminate this problem?
I have installed sensors to my motor but my controller only seems to use the sensors for a short period during start up then switches to sensorless mode once the motor is running, so I can't find out how the motor would behave with a sensored controller at higher rpm.

Also, do sensored controllers typically have higher erpm limits than sensorless ones?
The greentime controllers are only capable of 40k erpm which isn't quite enough for 12s lipo.

Thanks in advance.
In sensorless mode all the "cheap" controllers tend to only be able to do 4.5krpm at most with your above motor.
how have you set up your sensors on your motor ? some controller are to clever for there own good and it may see that you have sensors and will only use them to startup or your sensors are not setup correctly so the motor gets to a speed that the signals from the halls are not matching up with the bmf from the motor so it drops back to sensorless some controllers that I have played with you just can not get around this problem so this may be the case with the greentime controllers, some controllers have a jumper link to turn on/off the sensorless mode. The only 100% reliable way is to have a sensored controller only , but that is not saying that all sensorless/sensored controllers will not work . The only thing I can suggest is to try and shift the hall timing a tiny bit.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by dgrdan93 » Feb 21, 2014 6:10 am

In sensorless mode all the "cheap" controllers tend to only be able to do 4.5krpm at most with your above motor.
how have you set up your sensors on your motor ? some controller are to clever for there own good and it may see that you have sensors and will only use them to startup or your sensors are not setup correctly so the motor gets to a speed that the signals from the halls are not matching up with the bmf from the motor so it drops back to sensorless some controllers that I have played with you just can not get around this problem so this may be the case with the greentime controllers, some controllers have a jumper link to turn on/off the sensorless mode. The only 100% reliable way is to have a sensored controller only , but that is not saying that all sensorless/sensored controllers will not work . The only thing I can suggest is to try and shift the hall timing a tiny bit.
Thanks for the reply

I currently have my sensors mounted externally at 17.14 degrees apart with about 2mm of clearance from the motor. I haven't yet got a permanent hall sensor mount so I'm able to adjust them slightly and I can definitely notice how well they are placed by how clean the motor sounds.
I'll look at buying a sensored only controller but I'm not sure where to get one that's capable of higher rpm, and reverse like the greentime controllers.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by gwhy! » Feb 21, 2014 11:53 am

dgrdan93 wrote:
In sensorless mode all the "cheap" controllers tend to only be able to do 4.5krpm at most with your above motor.
how have you set up your sensors on your motor ? some controller are to clever for there own good and it may see that you have sensors and will only use them to startup or your sensors are not setup correctly so the motor gets to a speed that the signals from the halls are not matching up with the bmf from the motor so it drops back to sensorless some controllers that I have played with you just can not get around this problem so this may be the case with the greentime controllers, some controllers have a jumper link to turn on/off the sensorless mode. The only 100% reliable way is to have a sensored controller only , but that is not saying that all sensorless/sensored controllers will not work . The only thing I can suggest is to try and shift the hall timing a tiny bit.
Thanks for the reply

I currently have my sensors mounted externally at 17.14 degrees apart with about 2mm of clearance from the motor. I haven't yet got a permanent hall sensor mount so I'm able to adjust them slightly and I can definitely notice how well they are placed by how clean the motor sounds.
I'll look at buying a sensored only controller but I'm not sure where to get one that's capable of higher rpm, and reverse like the greentime controllers.
the infineion controllers like cellman sells will do what you want.

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Re: Adding hall sensors to outrunners

Post by Byte » Sep 12, 2015 3:25 pm

At this point I'm rewinding my 80-100 with thicker magnet wire, wanting to go 130kv just as it was stock. So while rewinding I thought why not put hall sensors in it? I'm planning to buy an Alienpower sensored ESC and will be running it on 10S LiPo, about 7kw.

As the last post was in 2014, are there any updates with people using hall sensors? I'm planning to use the "famous" Honeywell SS441A sensors, internally at 120 degrees spacing.


Thanks!

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