Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Electric Motors and Controllers
User avatar
parabellum
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1978
Joined: Nov 19, 2010 9:55 am
Location: Dominican Republic, north.

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by parabellum » Jul 19, 2014 8:34 pm

Bazaki wrote:I dissambled the motor many times, but It seems to be impossible to remove the skirt bearing and housing like at the picture, I will try your number 4, I did not remove the shaft bearing.

I have to get to the point where the windings are soldered to the phase wires, I need to waterproof the whole stator. I plasti dipped it many times but I can't get it waterproof behind the skirt bearing housing.

Any idea's how to waterproof this ? Epoxy is a bit risky because it permanent, and plasti dip is a bit weak.
I do not think removing shaft bearings will help to reveal winding. Btw. why are the windings soldered to the phase wires? In D the winding ends usually go out the motor as phase wires and are soldered outside, in Y 3 winding ends are soldered and buried inside and other 3 go out. Makes little sense to have them solder connected inside, just adding heat and failure mods.
Skirt bearing can be pressed very tight on this aluminum stator peas we can observe on the picture. I usually just hit with the hammer on outstanding ears of the outer skirt bearing fixture in sequence to not incline the bearing to much.
Hope it makes any sense.

User avatar
Bazaki
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 693
Joined: Dec 25, 2009 6:29 pm

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Bazaki » Jul 20, 2014 2:35 am

Thud has made a custom 45 kv winding for me a few years ago, and I want to waterproof the stator and windings.
How it soldered I can not say because there is almost no space between stator and skirt bearing, I just thought at some point the copper winding is soldered to the phase wire and probably that point needs to be waterproof.

With outstanding ear, you mean one of the 4 as shown at this pic ?

Image

User avatar
Bazaki
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 693
Joined: Dec 25, 2009 6:29 pm

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Bazaki » Jul 20, 2014 8:25 am

Ok that was easy..... indeed just tap one of the ears and it came off :D

User avatar
parabellum
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1978
Joined: Nov 19, 2010 9:55 am
Location: Dominican Republic, north.

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by parabellum » Jul 20, 2014 9:27 am

Bazaki wrote:Ok that was easy..... indeed just tap one of the ears and it came off :D
Brute force and hammers are our friends. :wink:

User avatar
Ratking
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 519
Joined: May 20, 2010 5:27 am
Location: Norway

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Ratking » Aug 17, 2014 5:02 am

Hello guys,

Ive been looking closely on this tread because I knew that both of my motors had some bad OEM windings. After setting the current limit to 250A one of the phases fried and the motor started to stutter. So it is time to man up and re-wind the two motors.

The primary goal is to have a motor that is friendly to the Castle Creation HV160's. That means a resistance>20mohm as the original motor. This limits any configuration lower than 8 turn. Another goal is to wind for a lower Kv to decrease the gearing. Smaller rear sprocket and shorter chain is lighter and a low rpm motor makes less noise.

I have dabbled with a few possible configurations in Drivecalc (fantastic software) that I would like to get some input on:

Image

Image

Keywords:
Higher resistance than the original motor
Lower Kv to decrease gear ratio
High copper fill (Higher copper fill and higher resistance = more turns)
Keep the motor within efficient speed

I don't feel that I have the whole picture and would like to know if someone have some insight on how to find the right wind, turns and wire thickness.

A few pictures of the bike as is. Paint and details will be prioritized when the electrical and technical is GTG.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Attachments
1.9mm 12 turn.png
1.9mm 12 turn.png (100.13 KiB) Viewed 1777 times
2x1.4mm 10 turn.png
2x1.4mm 10 turn.png (100.96 KiB) Viewed 1777 times
IMG_4967_1024x768.jpg
IMG_4967_1024x768.jpg (113.08 KiB) Viewed 160 times
IMG_4968_1024x768.jpg
IMG_4968_1024x768.jpg (130.5 KiB) Viewed 160 times
IMG_4969_1024x768.jpg
IMG_4969_1024x768.jpg (134.74 KiB) Viewed 160 times
IMG_4972_1024x768.jpg
IMG_4972_1024x768.jpg (102.65 KiB) Viewed 160 times
IMG_4973_1024x768.jpg
IMG_4973_1024x768.jpg (95.79 KiB) Viewed 160 times

User avatar
parabellum
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1978
Joined: Nov 19, 2010 9:55 am
Location: Dominican Republic, north.

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by parabellum » Aug 17, 2014 12:30 pm

Ratking wrote:Ive been looking closely on this tread because I knew that both of my motors had some bad OEM windings. After setting the current limit to 250A one of the phases fried and the motor started to stutter.
Can it be related with motor placement? Your rotors are to close to metallic surface, which is probably giving very bad time to the motor.

User avatar
Ratking
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 519
Joined: May 20, 2010 5:27 am
Location: Norway

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Ratking » Aug 17, 2014 1:47 pm

parabellum wrote:
Ratking wrote:Ive been looking closely on this tread because I knew that both of my motors had some bad OEM windings. After setting the current limit to 250A one of the phases fried and the motor started to stutter.
Can it be related with motor placement? Your rotors are to close to metallic surface, which is probably giving very bad time to the motor.
The rotor did not get excessively hot during the last run when the motor died. Would not the rotor which turn close to the steel be the part that would heat up? The no load current for the whole drive train is on the high side, that is another reason the get a lower Kv, lower losses from the rotor. But the design for this bike is already finished, it is what it is. I am just trying to optimize the current design.

User avatar
parabellum
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1978
Joined: Nov 19, 2010 9:55 am
Location: Dominican Republic, north.

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by parabellum » Aug 17, 2014 2:39 pm

Ratking wrote:
parabellum wrote:
Ratking wrote:Ive been looking closely on this tread because I knew that both of my motors had some bad OEM windings. After setting the current limit to 250A one of the phases fried and the motor started to stutter.
Can it be related with motor placement? Your rotors are to close to metallic surface, which is probably giving very bad time to the motor.
The rotor did not get excessively hot during the last run when the motor died. Would not the rotor which turn close to the steel be the part that would heat up? The no load current for the whole drive train is on the high side, that is another reason the get a lower Kv, lower losses from the rotor. But the design for this bike is already finished, it is what it is. I am just trying to optimize the current design.
Right, rotor and bike frame should heat up, but all this heating is produced with energy processed by stator and considering inefficiency stator heats up as well. Going low rpm will not resolve but for sure alleviate the issue. You could consider lower OD motors as well, gwhy runs full size motorcycle with 2 C5065? (I believe).

User avatar
gwhy!
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1780
Joined: Jun 08, 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Bristol, Uk

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by gwhy! » Aug 17, 2014 2:58 pm

2 x 6375's :mrgreen:

total peak power 8.5kw

edit: just looking at the motor config I don't think there will be any issue with the motors heating up due to how and where they are mounted.

User avatar
parabellum
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1978
Joined: Nov 19, 2010 9:55 am
Location: Dominican Republic, north.

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by parabellum » Aug 17, 2014 3:15 pm

gwhy! wrote:2 x 6375's :mrgreen:

total peak power 8.5kw

edit: just looking at the motor config I don't think there will be any issue with the motors heating up due to how and where they are mounted.
Sorry 2xC6375 :oops:
My concerns are more about efficiency hit, and he is loosing screws of the can. :lol:

User avatar
gwhy!
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1780
Joined: Jun 08, 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Bristol, Uk

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by gwhy! » Aug 17, 2014 3:46 pm

parabellum wrote:
gwhy! wrote:2 x 6375's :mrgreen:

total peak power 8.5kw

edit: just looking at the motor config I don't think there will be any issue with the motors heating up due to how and where they are mounted.
Sorry 2xC6375 :oops:
My concerns are more about efficiency hit, and he is loosing screws of the can. :lol:
:D no worries.

Loosing screws off the can can be a major problem .. as they can end up inside the motor and cause all sorts of damage :shock: .

User avatar
Ratking
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 519
Joined: May 20, 2010 5:27 am
Location: Norway

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Ratking » Aug 17, 2014 3:51 pm

I like to live dangerously ;) Don't know where the screws went, but no damage as I can see.
There is a need for locktite, thats for sure.

There are at least 10 mm between the rotor and any steel except for the frame that is 90 degree on the rotor. I don't think that should have enough impact. I don't remember the details, but I chose the distance after some info posted here by Jeremy and others experimenting with losses from outrunners.

User avatar
Ratking
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 519
Joined: May 20, 2010 5:27 am
Location: Norway

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Ratking » Aug 17, 2014 3:54 pm

gwhy! wrote:2 x 6375's :mrgreen:

total peak power 8.5kw

edit: just looking at the motor config I don't think there will be any issue with the motors heating up due to how and where they are mounted.
Peak power have never been an issue. It's driving around at high speed with lots of acceleration that heats up the motors. It does not help that I have 25 Ah battery capacity.

Do you have any issues with overheating from hard driving?

User avatar
gwhy!
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1780
Joined: Jun 08, 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Bristol, Uk

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by gwhy! » Aug 17, 2014 3:58 pm

actually no , the motors run slightly cooler than you would expect but I think this is due to a bigger mass that helps shift the heat, one motor on its own peaking at only around 4kw starts to get hot very quick but 2 motors are quite happy at a total peak of around 8.5 -9 kw

User avatar
Ratking
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 519
Joined: May 20, 2010 5:27 am
Location: Norway

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Ratking » Aug 17, 2014 4:02 pm

gwhy! wrote:actually no , the motors run slightly cooler than you would expect but I think this is due to a bigger mass that helps shift the heat, one motor on its own peaking at only around 4kw starts to get hot very quick but 2 motors are quite happy at a total peak of around 8.5 -9 kw
Sounds like you have a balanced setup, well done. Do you have any pictures of the setup? There is many compromises when designing a mid drive and any inspiration is appreciated.

User avatar
gwhy!
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1780
Joined: Jun 08, 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Bristol, Uk

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by gwhy! » Aug 17, 2014 4:06 pm

I have no experience with the longer 80100 motors ( but lots of experience with the shorter ones 8085's ) and I would check your settings on your controllers ( CC160 ? ), I know this dont really help you now as looks like you need to re-wind both your motors . the no load current of my re-wound 8085 is a tad under 2A each , these are re-wound with a Wye termination, so not sure what a good no-load current would be for a re-wound 80100

User avatar
gwhy!
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1780
Joined: Jun 08, 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Bristol, Uk

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by gwhy! » Aug 17, 2014 4:09 pm

its all documented in one of my build threads https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 12&t=32042 ( edit: from page 3 :D )



but here is a pic of the setup not on the bike :
Image

User avatar
Ratking
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 519
Joined: May 20, 2010 5:27 am
Location: Norway

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Ratking » Aug 24, 2014 7:39 am

gwhy! wrote:its all documented in one of my build threads https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 12&t=32042 ( edit: from page 3 :D )



but here is a pic of the setup not on the bike :

Seems like a solid design. Does the chain make much noise? The first drive train used a 25# chain and that was pretty noisy at full rpm.
Last edited by Ratking on Aug 24, 2014 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ratking
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 519
Joined: May 20, 2010 5:27 am
Location: Norway

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Ratking » Aug 24, 2014 7:45 am

Does anybody have some input about winding the motor as mentioned in the post above?

The motor is now stripped down and I have contact with a company that could sell me copper and other misc parts for a re wind. I just want a little confidence in my choice before I use money and time re winding.

I will take the pictures down if it clutters the tread, it is just for documenting how the motor looks for others to see.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Attachments
IMG_4975_1024x768.jpg
IMG_4975_1024x768.jpg (88.76 KiB) Viewed 162 times
IMG_4980_1024x768.jpg
IMG_4980_1024x768.jpg (75.64 KiB) Viewed 162 times
IMG_4981_1024x768.jpg
IMG_4981_1024x768.jpg (76.52 KiB) Viewed 162 times
IMG_4982_1024x768.jpg
IMG_4982_1024x768.jpg (86.02 KiB) Viewed 162 times
IMG_4985_1024x768.jpg
IMG_4985_1024x768.jpg (109.77 KiB) Viewed 162 times

User avatar
Thud
100 MW
100 MW
Posts: 2813
Joined: Aug 20, 2009 6:20 am
Location: West Michigan,USA

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Thud » Aug 24, 2014 10:12 am

Ratking wrote:Hello guys,

Ive been looking closely on this tread because I knew that both of my motors had some bad OEM windings. After setting the current limit to 250A one of the phases fried and the motor started to stutter. So it is time to man up and re-wind the two motors.

The primary goal is to have a motor that is friendly to the Castle Creation HV160's. That means a resistance>20mohm as the original motor. This limits any configuration lower than 8 turn.(you mean MORE than 8turns?) Another goal is to wind for a lower Kv to decrease the gearing.

Keywords:
Higher resistance than the original motor
Lower Kv to decrease gear ratio
High copper fill (Higher copper fill and higher resistance = more turns)
Keep the motor within efficient speed

I don't feel that I have the whole picture and would like to know if someone have some insight on how to find the right wind, turns and wire thickness.
Ratking,
Your list of goals have a few items in opposition.
From my experience, your motors are going to provide their best power out put while spinning in the range of 6500-8000 rpms.

That said, there is a clear choice to make:

1) optimized motors for your controller/voltage constraints & make the correct gearing choices for system survival.
Pro: arm pulling acceleration/max power. Con: worst case scenario for controller survival.

2) re-wind as described above & run a motor in a reduced power handling condition.
Pro: as easy on the controller as you can get. Con: risk fried motors if you overload them for too long.

If you really want a controllable motor, i will recommend a single wire wind. Prolly a 14awg (1.64mm) the max turns i can make with that is 12. Thats were you find the best Kt. I would terminate in delta to retain as much kv as possible. In wye you will be in the 55ish kv range. This motor should be good for 1.6 kw continuous input on 48v.(more with active cooling) based on amp capacity of the wire alone.

Suddenly, these (cough) 7kw motors don't look so mighty.

Now, 1/2 the resistance, & inductance with a 2 in hand wind...you have doubled the amp carrying ability. The cost? Higher kv & hammering flyback voltage (phase current) on the controller.

Think it through & enjoy it.
get some......

All information & advice provided by Thud are "Open Source" & free for personal use & distribution under the following agreement linked below.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/

User avatar
parabellum
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1978
Joined: Nov 19, 2010 9:55 am
Location: Dominican Republic, north.

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by parabellum » Aug 24, 2014 10:21 am

Do not actually remember where in the forum I got those data, but it is in my "80100 guidelines document". :D
Turns - Kv
1 - 1060
2 - 530
3 - 353
4 - 265
5 - 212
6 - 177
7 - 151
8 - 132
9 - 118
10 - 106
11 - 96
12 - 88
13 - 82
14 - 76

User avatar
Thud
100 MW
100 MW
Posts: 2813
Joined: Aug 20, 2009 6:20 am
Location: West Michigan,USA

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Thud » Aug 24, 2014 12:06 pm

That chart is coutesy of guru JeremyH.
(You'll see it in the op of this thread also)

And in case any one wonders what my best set up is with these motors: (I quote myself from this thread also)
So far, I haven't built a better motor & controller set up than the 6-turn, 2-in hand, 14G, dlrk/wye terminated motor...run the thing with a 12 or 18-FET xie-chang with a 6-Kw limit on 20 LiPo cells & you will not find a better RC power combination.
Re-reading that i should context it by saying we are talking about the 80/100 motor platform.

Working on Gregs bike this afternoon.....but i have a dual/ sereies'd motors on a single controller experiment all figured out.
Going on an old mountain bike.....soon to be moped.
get some......

All information & advice provided by Thud are "Open Source" & free for personal use & distribution under the following agreement linked below.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/

User avatar
gwhy!
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1780
Joined: Jun 08, 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Bristol, Uk

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by gwhy! » Aug 24, 2014 1:42 pm

Ratking wrote:
gwhy! wrote:its all documented in one of my build threads https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 12&t=32042 ( edit: from page 3 :D )



but here is a pic of the setup not on the bike :

Seems like a solid design. Does the chain make much noise? The first drive train used a 25# chain and that was pretty noisy at full rpm.
the noise do not really bother me but to be fair its very rear that I hit max rpm when I use this setup...

10 secs into this video it hits max rpm but I may also add that its not as noisy as it appears in the video.

User avatar
Ratking
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 519
Joined: May 20, 2010 5:27 am
Location: Norway

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Ratking » Sep 01, 2014 2:18 pm

Hello guys

A local motor company sold me enough of 1.9mm and 1.6mm to rewind two motors. Their service and price was excellent and fair, not so common these days.
I tried to wind 12 turns of a single strand 1.9 mm wire in DLRK. As the picture shows, I was able to wind two teeth with 11 turns. This equals 96 kv and 24mohm in delta, slightly higher than the original wind, but with a lot more copper, 250g vs 440g. I need to redo the windings due to a short and tighten up the windings from the start. One slack turn is enough to make it impossible to wind the adjacent teeth.

All help so far is appreciated, I have high hopes for making this in to a capable motor, suited for my needs( medium power, but easy on the poor controller). I have two of them, so burst of 4-5Kw per motor would be more than enough for this setup.
Attachments
image.jpeg
image.jpeg (94.05 KiB) Viewed 1596 times

User avatar
Ratking
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 519
Joined: May 20, 2010 5:27 am
Location: Norway

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Ratking » Sep 10, 2014 3:05 pm

Hello,

I managed to rewind the motor with 11 turn dlrk, 1.9mm wire. I used a lot of time, and do not recommend this if you are impatient.
The motor uses 2.1A at 47v, something I am pleased with.

Now to rewind the other functioning motor. It is going to be hard to cut the windings on a fully functional motor :/

Here is a couple pictures of the finished stator(The paper is there to protect the wire from being rubbed against the motor core. Next time I have to have more slack on the wire crossing the stator).
Attachments
image (1).jpeg
image (1).jpeg (134.32 KiB) Viewed 1557 times
image (2).jpeg
image (2).jpeg (121.86 KiB) Viewed 1557 times

Post Reply