Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

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Thud   100 MW

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Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Thud » Aug 12 2010 5:26pm

New edit:
Seems there are few of these motors getting pulled off the shelf & guys are starting to use their old stock finally, I am getting some questions regarding them. Here is the recommended set up if your serious about getting the most out of them & a cheap controller:
So far, I haven't built a better motor & controller set up than the 6-turn, 2-in hand, 14G, dlrk/wye terminated motor...run the thing with a 12 or 18-FET xie-chang with a 6-Kw limit on 20 LiPo cells & you will not find a better RC power combination [with external hall sensors].
Controller settings:
Use Xpd in the tech section to flash settings
Do not solder the shunt (& throw all the calibration out the window)
Do the math with your voltage to arrive @ 6kw @ use that for battery amps.
Set the phase current conservatively (start with battery amps) & make small increases untill your happy with your accelleration, or the controller starts to show some heat.
Most importantly set the block time to zero.

This method has been tested on the race track & in the neighborhoods....you can drain a 25ah pack without overheating in controllers or motors from my experience.

Now go read the whole thread & see all the mistakes :mrgreen:

Edit:
Rather than starting a new thread I thought I would add this info here. We will tear down & re-wind a brand new Turnigy 80/100-130 from scratch.

Step 1-Disasembly:
#1 inspect the shaft for any nicks or bump that would impead the removal through the bearings.
#2 remove the 4 inside bolt circle 5mm cap head bolts & remove the end cap (its a light press fit & pops off easily)
once removed your motor looks like this: (notice the yellow Phase wire was actually shorting to the end plate..this is a brand new never run motor!)
(Sorry guys, photo bucket pruned a few pics from my libraries...I'll have to take new ones....but these motors have dried up or gone the way of the dinosaurs)

#3 remove the circlip & spacer...& the 4 screws holding the skirt bearing to the can. use a proper fitting screwdriver as the screws are kinda soft.

#4 Using a plastic faced hammer, gently tap the end of the shaft a few times, this will loosen the skirt bearing from the can, once free we are ready to press the can off the motor.
Image

#4 press the magnet can out of the bearing tube. You see I am using the stock motor mount to gain some purchase, I use a singe bolt from the end cap. My technique is to hold the motor mount with my index fingers & press the shaft out with my thumbs.If the shaft is properly smooth, it will slide right out.
BE CAREFUL the magnets are very strong & if you change your grip you can potentialy receive a nasty pinch.
Image
Image

You see I had a slight burr on the end of the shaft & its hanging in the bearing race. I just installed a 4mm cap head screw & tapped it through gently.

Now you can tap the skirt bearing off the bearing tube. Use gentle taps & apply preasure 180 degrees to the bearing & it will pop right off. Next remove the bearings from the tube, I use a length of 10mm rod with a very square face on it, reach through one end to catch the inside race of a bearing. Now alternate tap's in 180 degree incremants & the bearing should slide out also.
congrats. You have diassasembled your motor & it looks like this.
Image

In close up, you can see several "flyers" or loose wires scattered about the stator. Lots of human error found throughout the assembly...several single strand shorts were obvious..but these are wound with 90ish strands of 33-ga wire so I don't really know if this motor would survive very long in its intended applicaion. My big concern is the shorted phase wire...so I dremel'd all the razor edges back & smoothed any areas that may come in contact with the wires.
Image

FRESH WINDINGS
Lets get rid of this original set up & build us a motor, one that you can't buy.

1st, I use a cut off wheel on the mighty dremel & make a slot through the super glue that the cheaters used to hold the windings onto the stator. We are very careful not to cut down to the stator & damge the precious green epoxy insulation on the stator.
Image

Once through the boundry layer of glue, I use a utility knife to cut the remaning windings. Careful fiddling with a Jewlers screwdriver & needle-nose pliers will clean out the stator.


RE-WINDING
This motor originally was an 8-turn/delta & will become a 6-turn/wye with 2 X 14-ga wire.
Just to overveiw the changes:
(all #s taken from "Drive Calculator")

parameters------------Stock-------rewind
copper cross section--18.9--------25.0
R (mOhms)-------------30.1--------13.5
Delta R ----------------20.1--------9.0
WYE R------------------60.2--------27.0
COPPER GRAMS-------254.5------357.7

Addendum: just confirmed the re-wound Kv is 133
I spun the motor in a lathe at 800-RPMs & it genrates 6.01V on each phase
rpm/volts = Kv

You can see the re-wind video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i_GIXxUlQM

(remember...low expectations) Here it is all wound up & ready to rock.

Image
& next to another stocker:
Image


Additional Notes:
I did not take the stator off the bearing tube for this project.
I really must build a decent Dyn-O-mometer...need to re-read Jeremys links on load sensors. :P
hope this answers a few questions I been getting via PM's

Added 4/28/2011: Winding information to answer questions about Kv & wire lengths
1st is a chart of turns & expected Kv result. This is completely credited to Mr Jeremy Harris, & has proven to be a valuable quick reference for me.
I've been trying to reverse engineer the constant to estimate the Kv for this size motor, based on the sparse data we have at the moment. This is what I've come up with in terms of turns and Kv:

Turns - Kv
1 - 1060
2 - 530
3 - 353
4 - 265
5 - 212
6 - 177
7 - 151
8 - 132
9 - 118
10 - 106
11 - 96
12 - 88
13 - 82
14 - 76

These figures are pretty much the best fit I can get to the known data points, and they would apply equally to someone rewinding an 80-100 motor
Again, Thanks to Jeremy Harris.

I have found this chart to be super accurate with the 80/100 turnigy's & all RPM's are assumed terminated in Delta...
for a lower RPM "Wye" termination, divide by 1.73 to get your new Kv example- 132/1.73= 76-Kv
See how flexible these are for getting anything you want? :D

Next are some Jpeg's of drive calculator with some winding scenario's
I compare the copper cross section's & resistance values of the different winding senarios...to get an idea of what I will end up with.
80-100 turnigy winds.zip
(418.64 KiB) Downloaded 437 times
next some info for the 80/85 motor:
80-85 Turnigy winds.zip
(562.88 KiB) Downloaded 249 times
and this ought to get a few guys into trouble :mrgreen:

Added 5/21/2011:
I have been testing & blowing-up bicycle controllers for almost a year...I have a small 63mm motor running with external halls that always just worked...& have been fooling around with external hall sensors on the 80mm motors...today I went with internal Halls and can finally say that the XieChang controllers will operate the motors satisfactorily.

1st time out: NO throttle cut outs, my wheelie power in low gear is restored! still a little soft on the high gear acceleration, but I am only programmed for 88 phase amps ATM...controller ran cool, motor runs cool after a mile of WOT. Time to ship this one out & make someone famous.
Last edited by Thud on Aug 24 2014 12:27pm, edited 20 times in total.
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by olaf-lampe » Aug 13 2010 2:49pm

This is a hard piece of work...

It would be nice, if you have time to take some measurements of the winding area!? :mrgreen:
List them like here :
winding calculator.jpg
winding calculator.jpg (79.29 KiB) Viewed 17837 times
Wit this data we can estimate how to wind the 7kW Colossus.

many thanks
*subscribed*
Olaf
Last edited by olaf-lampe on Aug 13 2010 2:52pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by Miles » Aug 13 2010 2:52pm

In English :) :
Attachments
Drivecalc stator tool.jpg
Drivecalc stator tool.jpg (94.08 KiB) Viewed 2884 times

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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by olaf-lampe » Aug 13 2010 2:54pm

Thanks Miles! Much better. Still the letters a-d are hard to read...
-Olaf

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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by Thud » Aug 13 2010 4:17pm

here you go olaf, the turnigy data
TURNIGY STATOR.pdf
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by Thud » Aug 14 2010 6:11pm

Here are the fruits of this afternoons labor.

the wire:
Image

getting started:
Image

an hour & 1/2 later:
Image
Image

here it is against a stock 80/100-130:
Image

I recounted the winding wire that I stripped from the old stator & found some discrpancies. One bundle was 98 wires the other I counted 88...twice. Sooo...QC is what you would expect from an early Turnigy. Still has the old HXT can style..

Re-checking the area of the wire by diameter 14ga = 82 strands of the 33ga of the original. This is now a 6-1/2 turn double 14-awg. I have effectively doubled the amount of copper in this baby. Hello torque (assuming its available before you reach saturation)
we will dyno it against a stock 130-Kv later next week when the new bearings are delivered. (Although technically it is closer to 180-Kv)
my fingers hurt from pulling monster wire...check back later.
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 14 2010 7:09pm

Holy sh*t Thud! You did it! And such a nice job! That makes my hands ache just to look at it, but wow! That is the real deal there! You've just turned 1 HXT motor into 2. That motor is going to be sooooo powerful! And its never going to get warm!

Such a nice job Thud!

Pass a known current value through one of the phases (like the wire cut mode on an RC charger), and measure the voltage across the winding, then divide by current and you know the winding resistance.

With winding resistance and kv, we can crank some numbers on this bad boy. :)
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by Thud » Aug 14 2010 7:36pm

Thanks for the props LFP. (my fingers aged ten years today)
Lets use the wire length.
14-gage =-2.525 Ohm per 1000' =-12,000"
140" of wire on each phase
.029 ohms per wire div x 2 wires = .0145 Ohms per phase.

(daaamn....thats gonna be a tough unit to controll! :mrgreen: :twisted: )

close enough? Cause you will have to wait till I get the energy to get back downstairs... :D, I will follow up when I get back down there.

Sure could use a nice 300 amp controller to test these motors with :wink:
Last edited by Thud on Aug 15 2010 1:40am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 14 2010 7:53pm

A shivering ICE160 is sitting in the corner somewhere on it's knees begging you to group those phases in wye... lol :) But he isn't that lucky! Ha! Some twisted part of me actually loves every time a perfect silicon junction turns into plasma ions and ash. :)
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by drewjet » Aug 14 2010 8:03pm

Nice job Thud. I hope my rewind turns out as well.

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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 14 2010 8:29pm

For the folks that don't fully appreciate the significance of what Sir Thudly has done here, he has just turned the power capability of that motor into the power capability of two motors.

That single big HXT motor is equal to, or more powerful than the pair of big HXT motors I run on my bike.

(Which is precisely why I MUST rewind both of mine now. :twisted: :twisted: Maybe shoot for 260kv with double copper on each motor. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: )
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by Thud » Aug 14 2010 8:50pm

Hey Luke,
How up to speed on winding lingo are you?

As I understood DLRK from the RC websites & from guru's like Ron VanSommer something or other (sorry Ron) The total turns would be shared by the ajoining tooth...so an 8-turn motor would be 4 turns "A", then 4 turns "a" then onto the next set in the 3 phase paralelling.

These Turnigys are described as 6-turn or 8-turns...but Aj's had 8 turns on each tooth...in true LRK language, wouldn't this be a 16-turn?? I have 6-1/2 turns on each tooth, either way...
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by AussieJester » Aug 14 2010 9:20pm

As I said in pm Thud excellent job buddy, I am so very very appreciative
and equally amazed :idea: Thudmiester, not only do we have the makings of a frock killing
machine but a motor that would have a 3220 Astro as an appetizer :mrgreen: (Take nothing away from
the Astro 3220, and i still will have me one....one day )

liveforphysics wrote:For the folks that don't fully appreciate the significance of what Sir Thudly has done here, he has just turned the power capability of that motor into the power capability of two motors.

That single big HXT motor is equal to, or more powerful than the pair of big HXT motors I run on my bike
Luke, honestly You have no idea the smile that put on my face when i read it...

Remembering also Luke, this motor will be hooked to one of Thudsters 2 Speed boxes, I already
have a ev grin (I'm serious!!) just thinking about this setup!

I will be running it on a Infineon too Luke, i am guessing here though a 12fet is out of the question? I'm scared
even thinking about anything over 44v after using it in stock config haha! You think 66v is still the shot
Luke or will 44v make it 'sing' well enough...? I know stock on 44v it is enough for me, just the reliability was the issue
the way i like to ride it, i.e same as Thud & Luke...2 speeds...it's either stop or WOT no in between hahaa...

Seriously though, Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou Thud :!: simply OUT-Freakin-Standing SiR I owe you large :wink:

KiM

p.s FISHING!! We have yet another thing in common! What you fish for i'm guessing Bass?

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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by Fligh High » Aug 14 2010 9:29pm

Image

It is always really difficult to believe at first sight that there is more copper in your rewind in comparison to the original, the eyes see much more "volume" of copper with the thinner strands !! Still amazing how insulation and diameter of wire make up a total amount of volume of copper :) A Power/size density application example in real life working progress...always great to see how it's been done.

If copper fill is the major important factor here , and forgetting about saturation just for the moment , has there been a attempt to rewind such a design of motor with isolated copper foil ? (that may gradually get both less in height/width as it fills up to the end of the turns) I am sure it must have been done before like to know if that really works or not !

What controller requirements would be needed for driving the motor here rewinded ? Must be much tougher....(edit : I see in the mean time while I posted this discussion has begun)

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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by bigmoose » Aug 14 2010 10:36pm

My compliments to Sir Thudley also! Looking forward to the dyno graphs for sure.

On a side, but related note, does anyone know if there is a "wire and stator calculator" like the one shown for inrunners?
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by Thud » Aug 14 2010 11:13pm

Here you go bigmoose, http://www.drivecalc.de/

(edit 8/16-it just occurred to me you are inquiring about in-runners...if you're doing a single-tooth wind I would think this one will work...you will have to do the math on a distributed wind...my geometrical guess would depend on how many coils you planned. Sorry BM, comprehension is the 1st thing to go after the gray hair falls out :P )

Its an RC-oriented calculator, but has many nice options in the tools file. As far as graphs...hehe, they will all be manual. I have a tach, a watt meter & a prony brake. I will try to keep all things close, but...for a nice computer analysis?...well, enough said. (I spend all my research money on LiPo these days 8) )

highflight, yes it doesn't seem like it can be done but the calc was right. That stator weighs more than the stock-wound stator on the bearing tube, with bearings in it & long motor leads with connectors...I doubt I could have gotten the 8 turns it said would fit...the incredible Hulk maybe could...I am just a puny human :lol:

AJ, if it swims, I fish for it. We have good size salmon & trout in the big lake & rivers, bass, panfish & northern pike in every pond & lake. Wall-eye & perch are plentiful also. I could go on forever. My wife even loves to fish for trout in the smaller wading streams (& whoops me every time out). Michigan is a sportsmans paradise.
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lets explore a tangent

Post by Thud » Aug 15 2010 9:38am

LFP said:
For the folks that don't fully appreciate the significance of what Sir Thudly has done here, he has just turned the power capability of that motor into the power capability of two motors.
That is an attention getting statement, to say the least. Lets put it into some context & keep it as "real" as possible.

It's no secret that I am in search of some serious power. One of the things I know is: big wire=big torque (at least in RC car motors I am familiar with) I naturally (foolishly?) assumed it would carry over in larger scale applications. I received a nice PM from Olaf this morning & he raised a few very legit questions regarding power claims in these threads & our current controller issues trying to unleash all this the-o-reticle power.

If I am designing a commuter for max efficiency, I wind a motor that will sip amps & turn reasonably slow & pick a voltage that is easy to charge & fits my budget in regard to amp-hours needed for normal usage. Then, build a transmission to maintain the motor in its max efficent range throughout its operating envelope. That's a complete package.

For performance? We find the limits of current technology & build as close to the line as we can afford & see what breaks 1st when we cross it a little bit. Right now, it is the controllers that severely limit the potential of these motors.

Every time I start to ponder the drive systems & our limitations, I arrive at the same conclusion. Gearing is the key to keeping our systems operating inside their designed operating range. It solves all the issues, when we have a limited range of power available. Whether the limit is the motors or controllers.
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 15 2010 9:54am

The controller will definitely get owned. We knew this though, and its not like AJ doesn't know Tue price of performance means exploded controllers.

Throw sensors in that thing in anticipation. And as a band-aid fix, we can throw some inductors in line to help the RC controller.
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by olaf-lampe » Aug 15 2010 11:32am

Hi Thud,
did you've had trouble unwinding the old wires? Is it all gooped in some resin?
-Olaf

BTW: I remember the motor was singing a lot in AJ's videos. Maybe that was due to the 98/88 strands...

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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by Thud » Aug 15 2010 11:46am

olaf, I heated the motor up to break the resin down on the bearing tube...I assume it broke down any glue on the windings also. Looks like they use some cyano-acrylate glue to keep the windings in place. Or...AJ put some resin on the end-windings when setting it up. Either way, after getting it to 400F it all comes apart rather simply.
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by dbaker » Aug 15 2010 12:49pm

Masterful job, Thud :D I was not impressed with the lay of the magnet wire in my HXT and I can see that we can't expect these stock motors to manage 9kW reliably :shock:

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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by AussieJester » Aug 15 2010 5:53pm

Thud wrote:olaf,
I heated the motor up to break the resin down on the bearing tube...I asume it broke any glue down on the wingings also. Looks like they use some cyano-acrylate glue to keep the windings in place Or AJ put some resin on the end-windings when setting it up. Eiher way, after getting it to 400f it all comes apart rather simply.

Nope not me Thudsters, i only applied epoxy to the magnets buddy anything else was done at the factory...

Curious, with the bigger wire, the startup tune.... wont do it with thick wires will it Thudster?it's No biggy
i can practice doing it myself :mrgreen:

KiM

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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by drewjet » Aug 16 2010 5:18am

Thud,

I am curious as to why you went with a half wind. Do you feel doing 1/2's are easier or was it to get maximum fill with the wire chosen?

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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by Thud » Aug 16 2010 5:25am

Drewjet,
I tried 3 times to make it a full 7 turns.....fail.
added the 1/2 turn to use as much copper as I could.
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Re: Thuds re-wind of a turnigy 80-100

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 16 2010 5:38am

I just bought 12 of this FET:

http://ixdev.ixys.com/DataSheet/L401.pdf

Each package has the high-side and low-side fet in them. Designed around being a motor phase leg FET.

250gr per package! That means 12 of them come out to be 6.6lbs, just in FET weight!

MSRP on them is $384 per FET package... I got 12 of them for $400. :) :) :)

This is a FET that would drive that motor like it was taking a walk in the park. :) But it has it's own problems that need to be overcome... like slow switching times, and the gate driver setup for it needs to be like a small controller by itself. lol
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